How about an aed?

[Bobskk]

How about having an AED?


Now that I’m retired from my high school teaching career, I have more time on my hands. One of the things I look forward to, like most retiring professionals, is doing some traveling and enjoying the outdoors. When l was a younger teacher, a student who was an Eagle Scout had learned to fly and invited me on a local flight around our wooded valley. I enjoyed it very much and any fears I had about the small plane were quickly relieved. I also have a nephew who is an ER doc. He flies around the PNW on fishing trips to shed the high level of stress he faces in his job.
As a retired oldster I would love to do some of the exciting kind of fishing the young doc does—and that means going to more remote places and hiking some rugged terrain. Between my earlier small plane flight experience and the fact that the good doctor already has plenty of experience flying and fishing, I decided to talk with him about taking me on a few trips.
After we decided that might be fun, It’s not surprising that one of the first things he wanted to discuss was my health. It was a surprise to me when he asked if I wanted him to “bring me back” if I had a heart attack. “No, just drop me in the tall timber somewhere,” I said.
He laughed and said he was serious but not just about bringing me home dead. Then he explained that he has an AED along in case someone’s ticker stops, especially when he goes fishing, because the altitudes and rugged hiking can bring on a sudden cardiac arrest.

All this to say, consider a couple of things medical since most flyers like to go on adventures that involve demands on the body not just from flying but also some physical exertion as part of the fun:
–Be sure to anticipate your personal medical needs, especially extra prescription drugs that you should take along for longer trips and in case you are away from home longer than expected.
–Think about it, maybe you should buy an AED (heart defibrillator) as part of your First Aid Kit, since you may often be away from medical assistance (at least more than the 5-10 minutes it takes to sustain serious organ damage or death in case of cardiac arrest).

[Speedo]

I need an AED every time I look at my 401k balance.

[stewartb]

Wouldn’t the average outdoorsman be better off taking a CPR class to assist his buddies or others he might encounter?

[Waldo M]

Knowing CPR is great, but according to a very experienced EMT I know, only part of the deal. He says "CPR keeps the corpse viable until the AED does its job".

[stewartb]

My point being the average guy isn’t an EMT and doesn’t have the training or support resources an EMT has.

[SJ]

My point being the average guy isn’t an EMT and doesn’t have the training or support resources an EMT has.

True, but pretty much all AEDs now walk you through exactly how to use them. They are set up for novices. Most talk to you.

sj

[stewartb]

I’ll ask my cardiologist next time I see her. For me? An AED would cause serious problems. I doubt the average guy would figure that out before they did more harm than good. I get why they’re placed in public places. For individuals? I’m not rushing out to buy one.

[mam90]

It seems that at times we can “what if” ourselves to the point of absurdity. Not suggesting we shouldn’t put some effort into being prepared, but I usually find myself “murphyed” with not having what I need, but having lots I don’t. I used to tell one guy that worked for me and was constantly making suggestions for low probability things we should be planning for, “what if we’re attacked by aliens?” On AED’s, we were trained annually but like SJ said, they’re self directing. One of the classes had a statistic that saves from publicly placed AED’s were overwhelmingly made by those who had not been trained.

[stewartb]

Johns Hopkins estimates 1700 AED saves a year in the USA by bystanders. That in a population of more than 336 million. The math says that’s 1 in 197,650 people in the population. Statistics don’t support me having one in my outdoors medical kit. Others may choose differently.

[OLDCROWE]

We live fairly remote in Oklahoma close to Tulsa but it's a 40-minute ambulance ride to a good ER, that's 40 minutes after they get here to stabilize then to scoop you up and go which is at least another 15 minutes.

We keep an AED on hand (my daughter is an ER Trama Team Nurse, and she picked it out and we make sure everyone who lives here has done the on-line training with it) and also keep critical items such as Trama kits (in various locations) for stopping bleeding (blood thinners and a bad cut can be life threatening) along with a good first aid kit that includes EPI pens and such.

Also registered with the local Air Evac but they won't come without the first responders calling for it and our FR's are a volunteer fire department.

[OLDCROWE]

Wouldn’t the average outdoorsman be better off taking a CPR class to assist his buddies or others he might encounter?

Having once performed CPR for an extended period, even with a partner I'll take an AED over that experience in the future. Also remember that once you have an AED going you are somewhat freed-up to call for help.

[mvivion]

This conversation speaks directly to one's definition of the term "Survival gear". Here is a definition offered by Wikipedia:

"A survival kit is a package of basic tools and supplies prepared as an aid to survival in an emergency. Civil and military aircraft, lifeboats, and spacecraft are equipped with survival kits. Survival kits, in a variety of sizes, contain supplies and tools to provide a survivor with basic shelter against the elements, help them to keep warm, meet basic health and first aid needs, provide food and water, signal to rescuers, and assist in finding the way back to help. Supplies in a survival kit normally include a knife (often a Swiss army knife or a multi-tool), matches, tinder, first aid kit, bandana, fish hooks, sewing kit, and a flashlight."


The question here, really is just how much "stuff" should we carry? How we determine that should be something like "What are the MOST LIKELY scenarios we might face in an emergency?". The next criteria I use is "What is practical to carry?" Meaning how big, how heavy, how difficult to operate in an emergency, etc, etc.

The geographical region over which flights will be made and the season during which flights are to be made should dictate much of what we carry, obviously. The very basics for shelter, basic first aid, signalling, etc really don't require a lot of weight or bulk.

I learned a long time ago that food isn't very high at all on survival NEEDS. Read about Helen Klaben and Ralph Flores adventures in the Yukon winter for 40 plus days. Yet almost every survival kit I've seen contained quite a few food items.

Water, on the other hand, is a life sustaining requirement. So, you MUST have containers and a means to gather water. If that water comes from a lake, drink it.....deal with whatever bug you catch once you're home.

At one point, the Department of Interior developed "standardized" survival kits. These were to be carried in all DOI aircraft at all times. The kits were HEAVY (35 pounds plus), and had a seal on the zipper. We weren't supposed to break the seal except in an emergency. First thing I did was open one to inventory the contents. Turns out there was a lot of "stuff" in there that probably wasn't very useful in my part of the world. These were designed for 4 to 6 occupants, and for all parts of Alaska, and for all seasons, BTW.

At the time, I was flying an early Husky, which had "limited" legal useful load. I had prepared my own survival kit for that airplane, keeping it as light as practical, while still containing what I considered necessary components. I cycled contents during the various seasons, and didn't carry a lot of the stuff that really didn't apply to the Interior of Alaska. It also only provided supplies for two people. To summarize, DOI didn't like my kit, and instructed me to carry the DOI kit (designed for four to six people). My response was a letter to DOI stating that I would therefore require authorization to operate the aircraft in excess of its certificated legal gross weight. I was authorized to carry my kit.

I was quite comfortable carrying that kit. And, I have experienced survival situations. To me, survival items need to be as simple, easy to use and light as practical.

A very technical device like an AED, which more than likely is required to be re-certified with some frequency, and which is probably less "durable" than may be desirable for stowage in an aircraft, seems to me to be a "great to have in a very specific instance" kind of item, but that's not what survival gear is to me.

Basics, folks, we can't be prepared for EVERYthing that might happen.

MTV

[stewartb]

I’m ahead of the game. I have a heart rhythm device implanted in my shoulder. From that I’ve learned a bit about the cardiac electrical system. FWIW, a couple of close friends have had multiple heart attacks. None of those events called for an AED. What they needed was surgical intervention to open up arteries. Not the same as a rhythm event. I’m not sure what events do call for one.

[DENNY]

I carry about 20-30 lbs of stuff I never use on every flight. Every now and then some of it comes in handy. When it comes to big gatherings of a bunch of older/overweight/out of shape smokers an AED would move up on the nice to have list. Pretty much anyone can figure out how to use it, even a pilot. However, you will probably save a lot more lives with simple airway stabilization, breathing and bleeding control with a healthy group of people. Even with history of MI and Cardiac bypass graft X 7 I don't carry one in my plane. I would not complain if someone threw it in a plane on a fly out, the only thing to remember is keep it real handy (hang it from the strut in camp) so people can find it when it is needed. It is like bringing an extra tailwheel or left mag North of the Brooks seems like overkill until someone needs it. No real right or wrong on this one as I see it just do what fits your situation/strikes you fancy.
DENNY

[DENNY]

I’m ahead of the game. I have a heart rhythm device implanted in my shoulder. From that I’ve learned a bit about the cardiac electrical system. FWIW, a couple of close friends have had multiple heart attacks. None of those events called for an AED. What they needed was surgical intervention to open up arteries. Not the same as a rhythm event. I’m not sure what events do call for one.

It is used for Ventricular Fibrillation. Lots of things can cause Ventricular Fibrillation so it is important to address underlying cause such as Airway/Breathing/Circulation, meds, medical issues, ect. So getting to a tall building to fix underlying problem is also important because it can reoccur quickly.
DENNY

[stewartb]

I’m familiar with ventricular fibrillation. Not the debilitating kind. I can make my heart do funny things with caffeine. No Red Bull for me. More people should be aware of what they put into their mouths that makes them sick.

[Waldo M]

I agree with stewartb and mvivion in that I am not likely to acquire an AED and load our PA-11 up with it. My survival vest contains a PLB and provides for water, making a fire, shelter and signaling. It's pretty minimalist. The first aid kit is carried in a separate bag.

If I was headed for a remote area with a person at risk of a cardiovascular problem, though, I might suggest that they bring one.

AEDs guide you through their use both verbally and with pictures. I successfully used one once, so there's proof that any idiot can operate it.

We carried one on the airplanes I flew before I retired. The battery condition is monitored by an indicator light and they don't require regular service. As an SOP, we brought the device inside with the "freezeables" when we had to winterize the airplane in order to keep the battery from cold soaking.

[CubCruiser]

I spent 9 years as a Firefigher/EMT. I performed CPR 9 times in my career. I have the dubious distinction of being 0 for 9 on CPR saves…and I was recertified every 6 months.

I used a defibrillator at least 20 times on other patients with about a 75% restart rate.

[Mark_Moyle]

I guess having an AED with you for a gathering of sedentary old folks who don’t have a third class or better might be a good thing to have along. Thing is if you make the investment odds are you’ll never use it and the pads and battery pack expire. And like Denny said. An AED will only shock ventricular fibrillation. Believe me it’s really frustrating to have a patient who was walking and talking one second, the next they’re on the ground, you slap the pads on and follow the AED’s verbal instructions and the damn thing won’t shock. Makes you wish you had at least a three lead defibrillator on hand. Most folks who have atrial fibrillation and live with it either take beta blockers or have ablation done. An AED won’t shock them. I’ve done CPR many times as a volunteer for the Grass Valley FD, ambulance service for Montville FD and as a community health practitioner here in Alaska. Not once in the field or in the clinic did CPR bring someone back with one exception. At a girls varsity high school basketball game back in 1977. This was back when the cardiac thump was taught and only if you saw the patient drop, no pulse. I thumped her once and gave her a couple breaths. Checked her pulse, she had a pulse and started breathing. She walked off the court. Honestly it’s great if someone wants to add an AED to their first aid kit. I won’t. My kit includes a couple extra things, like a clotting agent, suture kit, lidocaine and some non-narcotic Ketorolac 30mg/ml… just in case it’s me that needs to be fixed up and I need my wits while I suture myself which I’ve had to do three times.


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[Flying Dave]

Note to self. Don’t bring AED to any SC fly in. It’s not needed…