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Likes: All thing being equal ( times, equipment, mods, etc.)........is there a value difference between Certified and Experimental PA-18's ?
Obviously to commercial.....but otherwise?
All thing being equal ( times, equipment, mods, etc.)........is there a value difference between Certified and Experimental PA-18's ?
Obviously to commercial.....but otherwise?
"Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"
Ive seen more exp cubs go for more than certified ones lately, equivalent or close to it condition. A lot of buyers know that experimentals are cheaper to maintain and alter, and more options. Other than banner towing, guiding, and flight schools a cub really doesnt have much commercial use to most buyers today. Thats why Im building an experimental instead of buying or overhauling a certified one. Just my opinion and observations.
Brandsman liked this post
Value? As in $$ or in the (mental) value of owning experimental vs certified?
All things considered equal, I find owning an experimental advantageous as I'm also the mechanic.
Value is all up to the buyer/user. Prices seem to be all over the place since no two Cubs are the same. Something to consider, some life insurance policies won't cover if you are operating an Experimental Aircraft when you meet your maker. If that is important to you, read all the fine print before going Experimental. Sometimes there are things we don't even think of that may sway our decision makeing. All in all, buy the airplane that meets your mission and you can afford.
How does insurance compare between two equally valued Super Cubs, experimental VGs certified.
Steve Pierce
Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
Will RogersBowie thanked for this post
I don't insure so can't help you with that. Value wise a well built (and results do vary!) exp. seem to bring at least as much and sometimes more money than certified. I expect that is because owners want to have their cub their own way not the FAA way. I built mine and have been flying it for 26 yrs and I don't think the dollar value was there then but it is now. As a A&P/IA I can easily do whatever is legally possible to a certified cub, but I prefer being able to use whatever prop,floats,tires, skis,engines,tanks and belly pods that I want. That is the driving force for me and being that it is strictly recreational use I wouldn't have it any other way. As said above, it is all about your mission.
All things equal, certified has more value in my experience, and by a lot.
I prefer the experimental world obviously, but when it comes time to sell a good percent of pilots won't even consider a homebuilt.
Originally Posted by cubdrvr
To insurance? PA-12, Cessna 180, Backcountry Cub…. All equal relative to declared value. With one qualification, Avemco views Cub “kits” and Cub clones based on certified differently from other experimental “Cub” builds.
Last edited by stewartb; 03-14-2023 at 07:12 AM.
I'm one of them. I've seen too many things that are just crazy stupid dangerous - and on "prize winners." A Clipper project where the guys actually told us that they'd filled in the pock marks on the lower longerons ( from rust) - with body putty was one of the biggest. Another one I showed up to look at a Smith Mini Plane only to find a 5 pound lead weight hose clamped to the tailspring. I said, "I thought this was a prize winner." He answered, "Well I don't have the weight on there for the judging." Both had won prizes - honestly. Those are the only two I remember right now, but I do know that I don't even respect any prize given anywhere because of this. One can only shudder to think what slips through the cracks on "regular non prize" aircraft.
I should point out that of course no one here would ever perpetrate anything like this I'm sure. And not only am I willing to fly experimental, but I am working toward that goal. And I don't believe that everything has to as it's always been. But some things are just crazy and you can't be sure you'll find out about it before it's too late if you buy someone else's experiment. The risk is too big and the saving too small to make purchasing an experimental a reasonable concept - in my opinion.
Huh. The experimental Cubs I’m familiar with represent best in class. And there are lots of beater Cubs passing annuals out there.
So you are not a 'fan' of experimental but "And not only am I willing to fly experimental, but I am working toward that goal.". I guess I'm confused.
I have seen certified that I would not fly in and have a current annual.
Last edited by aeroaddict; 03-14-2023 at 06:20 PM.
Aero Addict - I can see where you might be there.
The "not being a fan" of experimental refers to what most folks do. I've seen so many folks literally say, "that is worth the time." for things most of us regard as common sense. I would never buy anyone else's experimental aircraft. In fact it's my opinion that they ought not be allowed to be sold. You want one you build one. I would never sell one in today's litigious society. All someone has to do is auger it in and you're working until you die on the job and your family gets nothing. Oh no they can't do that you say? I've been on juries and it's frightening what goes on. Believe me, if one of us "rich airplane guys" comes up in court, proof won't matter. And I hate to be so cynical, but experience just can't be ignored.
All of that being said, I have no problem with flying anything that I've built myself. Years apprenticing to an A&P and seeing what I've seen gives me a sense of confidence. Now I could be as incompetent as any of the rest of them, but I don't think I am. And I am willing to risk my life on my work and knowledge.
A good friend of mine says that "Aviation is nothing but personalities." We all have our own "ways" and different things we value. So please don't hate me, but this is where I've gotten to after 40 something years hanging around aviation. I realize most folks don't agree, but wanted to say it because in our current society sometimes not saying something contributes to the death of dissent. The ability to disagree is one of the things that has made this country (US of A) so I am less quiet these days than I used to be. I thank the list members for putting up with it.
Well said. I should have made the comment that I meant no disrespect for A&P's. It's just that, as you have stated, life experiences. I have known good dentist, auto mechanics, pastors, .....
and of course not so good.
As an ex FAA Inspector, current AP, IA, and DAR I can say that I have zero desire to own anything with a white airworthiness certificate anymore. I'll agree that there are some experimental aircraft that are downright unsafe but they are easy to see just like the certified stuff.
I could write a book on some of the things I've seen over the years come out of part 145 repair stations that were just as scary as some of the homebuilders without a mentor.
The way to navigate this is to hire the best resource you can if you are not comfortable making the determination yourself. IMO experimental offers way more value.
Javron L-21
Clip-wing Taylorcraft
I agree that this is certainly possible, but...
does anyone here personally know of a case when that has happened?
A guy on my airport built an Avid catalina flying boat, & sold it after a few years,
and that owner (or a second owner) ended up crashing it in Texas & killing himself
when he attempted a water takeoff after the hull had taken on water-- too much water, as it turns out.
But I never heard a thing about the victim's family going after the builder.
I've also heard people talk about insurance companies denying claims,
due to unapproved mods that had nothing to do with the accident, or similar reasons....
does anyone here have any personal knowledge of something like that happening?
I mean actual personal knowledge, not "I heard ....".
Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
That’s an easy one: Remember the John Denver accident? Precisely the circumstance, and the family, which inherited a significant fortune, sued the builder of that plane for deviating from plans, because he didn’t want fuel in the cockpit.
MTV
I bought my Cub in 1962 -always maintained by a large repair shop. I gradually transitioned to owner maintenance, and in my first attempt to “clean the screens” following an extensive annual and a transcontinental flight, I found the carburetor screen cap had been glued in - threads stripped!
That was 1966. Nobody has touched my airplane since, except for Dan the cylinder guy at Fla-Bob when I needed a new exhaust seat. Even then, I took it off and put it back on. I do miss him, but apparently he used good seats, because I seem to be getting longer cylinder life these days.
Previously, experimental values would be notably lower than certified aircraft. That ride is shifting especially in the Cub-type aircraft space, but insurers and financiers still aren’t as comfortable with experimental airplanes and there may be more limited options/coverages available.
As a general rule, there is still more variability in aircraft quality in the experimental space than the certified market. The importance of the aircraft pedigree (builder, maintenance, modifications) is key for the experimental Cubs but can usually be fairly easily determined by a skilled and experienced mechanic.
—Amy
Thank you for reminding me there are still optimists in this world. I am so happy for you that you get to have that outlook. I envy you in fact.
For me though, even the mere possibility of financial ruin makes it an unacceptable risk to my family's financial security. Being sued is no fun and lots of work and cost - even if you successfully defend yourself against the accusation. It can break you financially even if you prevail. In my book it's just not smart management to sell an experimental. People will sue if they get the chance.
That being said, I'm still so glad that we have the experimental option in our country.
I see way higher insurance rates on experimentals vs virtually the same certified aircraft with same hull values.
My Supercub valued at $90K was roughly $1250 a year for a million smooth. The Rans S7 I purchased as an interim airplane is valued at $70K and $2500 premium. I have no concept what the Bearhawk will end up at with much more value.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a well preserved body but rather to slide in sideways, well used up proclaiming "WOW What a Ride"
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