PA12 or PA11

[nhayes]

Hello, hope you are doing well, i have the chance to buy a piper airplane, there is a pa11 freshly restored with a c90, 12 gallon tank, no electric, pretty much original all of it, and there is a pa12 with o320 engine, tundra tires and super nice restoration made, both are super nice airplanes, the pa12 cost twice the price of the pa11.
My question is which one?? what do you think, i will need the airplane to jump around fields, land in dirt roads and fly around 200 km radius, if get the pa11 i will have to put bigger tires on it and maybe the fuel tank will be small to me, but i can take cans of fuel inside..
do you think the pa11 will be pretty much capable of doing the job a pa12 will do ?

thank you very much for the help!

[mvivion]

Simple answer to that last question: NO.

Ive owned both at various times, and they are both great airplanes, no doubt. But, for utility, useful load, speed, etc, assuming your description of the planes is accurate, I’d take the 12, hands down every day.

And, I loved my 11.

MTV

[Waldo M]

I'm not arguing for the PA-11 for your mission, but PA-11s DO NOT have a 12 gallon tank. As discussed at length in another recent thread, the fuel capacity is 17 gallons unless there have been after market modifications to add additional fuel tanks.

[cubdrvr]

I've had both also and agree with Mike. The -11 is a really fun bird to fly but it has many limitations. Fuel, GW, no electrics, room, etc.

[cubdriver2]

Simple answer to that last question: NO.

Ive owned both at various times, and they are both great airplanes, no doubt. But, for utility, useful load, speed, etc, assuming your description of the planes is accurate, I’d take the 12, hands down every day.

And, I loved my 11.

MTV

I agree with MTV most of the time ( did I say that out loud) Totally disagree on this one. I've only flown 3 different 12s, 2- 0320 and 1-0235. Great airplanes, got my float rating in one.
But....a C90 light 11 is the most fun ever, I have 2200hrs in one. I let over 20 different people solo my 11 and each one flies it like they were born in it after 20 minutes.
Island Bob said it best. At the time I let him fly it he had a C170, a 100 HP J4 and a 0320 Pa12. He took off and after about 10 minutes he was terrorizing the whole island buzzing everyone on it and a couple boats on the Hudson River. After he landed and shut it off he says " Holy fu_k, this thing makes you fly like a crazy man "
Most fun ever, Waldo knows

Glenn

PS, and flown it as far as Wisconsin and back from NY

[AKbiggagame]

I have had 2 modified J3/PA11's and several friends with PA12's and I think it really comes down to your mission. The PA12 has a higher gross weight and will absolutely carry more stuff. If the 12 has flaps, Borer Prop, and is kept light it can be a pretty good performer. However I've yet to see a 12 that would out perform my modified J3 (0200, NFS high compression pistons, Legends exhaust, Mac 7535, VG's, extended gear, bush wheels, pa18 tanks and super cub front seat, full baggage, etc) under 4000' MSL. Once you start working out of short strips above 4000' the 0320 with the right prop will climb better than a C90 or 0200. A bushed out PA11 is a great performer if you keep it light and a blast to fly. I have a good buddy who had a sweet pa11 and sold it and got a nice pa12. He has kicked himself ever since for not keeping the pa11. He just sold the 12 and is shopping for another 11, he keeps offering to buy mine.

[mvivion]

This points to the standard answer when comparing different types: Itdepends on what yo want to do with it. Mission is everything.

MTV

[1934A]

2 diffetent planes for 2 different missions. Define your mission, and decide if you need to haul a load, and choose accordingly.

[JP]

Mission for sure. The problem with a PA-11 is load, obviously. Not that it won't haul a load. But that J-3 TC has legal and practical limits that one must be very mindful of. The replicas are certified for much higher weights in the experimental mode--1,600 lbs for the -11 Cub Special. Still 1,220 (correct) off the shelf, however, which is limiting. I once calculated the average load Kirk had on Liberty Girl (a J-3 with a 90) and he was regularly hauling 1,750-1,850 with all the fuel on board for his overwater adventures. But....that is not what the 3/11 is made for and the antithesis of the type of flying it excels at at lighter weights.

[Waldo M]

The PA-11 is limited to 1220 pounds gross weight, not 1320 pounds. it shares that limitation with a Continental powered J-3 because they are built on the same type certificate [A-691].

[JP]

The PA-11 is limited to 1220 pounds gross weight, not 1320 pounds gross weight. it shares that limitation with a Continental powered J-3 because they share the same type certificate [A-691].

Sorry, was thinking LSA. Not a lot of legal load at that weight.

[Waldo M]

I've been told that a lot of PA-11s are flown "near gross". Not saying what side of the gross weight limitation they're flown on, but its "near gross".

[BC12D-4-85]

I never understood why someone didn't pursue for the Normal Category on conventional gear, the Restricted Category takeoff weight (1250#) for the PA-11 listed in A-691 Note 6. Every little bit helps. Then increase the upper cabane fasteners from 1/4" to 5/16", plus PA-18 shocks. On EDO 1320 floats GW is 1300#, and 1350# on EDO 1400's. It's even higher for STC'd floats like Baumann's I believe.

Gary

[acroeric]

With my PA-11 there is the legal gross weight and there is the logical gross weight. Big difference between the two.

[BC12D-4-85]

And, the closer to the Equator your PA-11 weighs less.

Gary

[nhayes]

Thanks very much for all the help! i learned to fly in a pa11 and i never had the joy of flying in another airplane, not even close, that's a thing i hear pretty often, is the most fun and joy to fly airplane ever made! we decided to get the pa12, it cost much more but it will perform better for the job, and with the o320 i think it will perform pretty good, it has flaps, vgs and 26 goodyear tires, cleveland brakes as well.

As soon we make the deal will send some pictures, i have to fly 1.000 km to get it.

[Alex Clark]

I owned and instructed in a lightweight J3 converted to a PA-11 90 horse for over 12 years. On wheels and floats it was the most fun plane I have ever flown. 4 to 5 gallons an hour of car gas at 75mph on wheels, and one 18 gallon tank. So about 3 hours of flight time with a reserve. ( I stretched it to 4 hours once and ran out of gas on final. ) 26 inch goodyears, no electrical, would take off in 300ft with a full load on wheels and 150ft when light. NO NIGHT FLIGHT due to no lights. About a 225 mile range in dead air.

I now own my second PA-12. 150 horse, 82x42 prop. 31 inch tires, two 19 gallon tanks, flaps, two radios, GPS, PA-18 gear legs, extended wings and tail feathers. ( gross weight increase to 1935 pounds) Extended baggage. She burns 8 gallons an hour, at 70-75 knots.(80 to 86 mph) So 4 hours of flight time with reserve. Have flown it at night. 320 to 350 mile range in dead air. Not as nimble as the PA-11 and it kills my injured hip crawling into the front seat due to the way PA-12s are designed.

[BC12D-4-85]

My PA-12 had a Cessna seat on rails. Moving it back plus a seaplane door made ingress and egress easier.

Gary

[Alex Clark]

Mine has a PA-18 slider on top of the PA-12 seat frame. The last owner was considerably shorter than I am. I have a seaplane door.
PA-11 and PA-18s are easier for me to get into by sitting on the door frame and loading my legs. Many years ago I had a small metal object travel through my left hip at high speed. It was ok for a longtime, but now that hip goes nuts if I turn my leg the wrong way.

[BC12D-4-85]

Small metal object, eh? Not the best for a long life free of pain. My PA-12 N2514M ingress was to pull the Cessna seat back, then step in as far forward as possible with my head between the windshield v-brace. Sorta' swing the left leg boot forward and around the seat then drop into it. Most J-5's and PA-12's I've seen have the front seat very low with a tall front stick that's in the way of getting seated. On floats the strut step allowed some easier maneuvering.

Gary

[Tennessee]

And, the closer to the Equator your PA-11 weighs less.

Gary

And the higher up you go, the less it weighs. The math is too complicated, so we just have to guess about things like that.

[BC12D-4-85]

My float pond neighbor still wonders how someone at the South Pole can stand upside down and not fall off

Gary

[Waldo M]

Perhaps your neighbor should run for political office. It sounds like they're fully qualified.

[BC12D-4-85]

There's a PA-11 on floats in Fairbanks that has sat unflown for many years. One or more control surfaces have been removed, but the basic airframe and floats remain. Not sure who owns it and why it's been parked next to our floatpond. Someone should inquire. I'll try to get a parking spot number as the airport would know the owner.

Gary

[BC12D-4-85]

That PA-11 in Fairbanks is at FP-48 at the international Airport pond. It's missing a rudder. Someone should contact the airport leasing office (907-474-2525) and see if who owns her would sell. None of my business of course but it's a shame to let it sit for another year. I didn't see a N-number but the airport would know.

Gary

[nhayes]

Hello, thank you again for all the good advice, after some time the pa12 cruiser was a no deal, so we decided to get a restored pa11 with C90 engine, no electrical, one tank of 64 liters, pretty much original, it was a J3 in the early life and converted to a Pa11, is a dream to fly!! super happy with the decision.
We are making a lot of work now to make it more reliable, changing much of the gaskets, seal, rubber hoses, carb quick repair kit, tail wheel bearings..
Here are some pictures of the airplane:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YdPT6nRNrGF8idGu7

I will keep the engine light as possible not making any mods to it, maybe some day 26" airstreaks, but not even sure about it, i think with the 8 x 4 is possible many things..

Any one have luck getting a better quality 6.00 x 2 tail wheel? i bought a new general tire and the quality was very bad..

[mvivion]

Hello, thank you again for all the good advice, after some time the pa12 cruiser was a no deal, so we decided to get a restored pa11 with C90 engine, no electrical, one tank of 64 liters, pretty much original, it was a J3 in the early life and converted to a Pa11, is a dream to fly!! super happy with the decision.
We are making a lot of work now to make it more reliable, changing much of the gaskets, seal, rubber hoses, carb quick repair kit, tail wheel bearings..
Here are some pictures of the airplane:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YdPT6nRNrGF8idGu7

I will keep the engine light as possible not making any mods to it, maybe some day 26" airstreaks, but not even sure about it, i think with the 8 x 4 is possible many things..

Any one have luck getting a better quality 6.00 x 2 tail wheel? i bought a new general tire and the quality was very bad..

one of the first things I did to my 11 was add 26 inch Airstreaks and a 3200 tailwheel. The 3200 is overkill for the 11, but reliability and function in this case count for more.

MTV

[buckchop]

Ive been tryi to locate the owner of that pa11 at the float pond for probably 5-6 yrs, bothered the folks at the FIA info number and the guy that has plane next to the pa11. Ive never gotten any contact back. Which is a big shame to c that pa11 sit there.

[BC12D-4-85]

Ive been tryi to locate the owner of that pa11 at the float pond for probably 5-6 yrs, bothered the folks at the FIA info number and the guy that has plane next to the pa11. Ive never gotten any contact back. Which is a big shame to c that pa11 sit there.

There was a relatively young fellow that kept the snow off this winter. Owner's get possessive as they age, perhaps not wanting to let the fun of their youth slip away? I've flown less every year yet keep a plane, so I can relate.

Gary

[skywagon8a]

Ive been tryi to locate the owner of that pa11 at the float pond for probably 5-6 yrs, bothered the folks at the FIA info number and the guy that has plane next to the pa11. Ive never gotten any contact back. Which is a big shame to c that pa11 sit there.

Find the N number and/or the serial number, look it up on https://www.faa.gov find the address and go knock on the owner's door.

[cubdriver2]

Put a T3 on it

Glenn

[Waldo M]

nhayse, I rarely differ with mvivion, but what you need to add to your PA-11 is dependent on how you intend to use it.

If you feel the need to land on gravel bars over rocks and logs, then a heavier tailwheel and 26" wheels and tires make sense. You are most certainly degrading the handling, performance, and flying qualities of the airplane by doing this, however. In any size airplane, but particularly light, low-powered airplanes, every gram makes a difference. and big tires add a lot of drag.

If your mission involves flying off existing sod runways and an occasional landing in a pasture or cultivated field, leave the airplane exactly as it is. Too many nice flying airplanes are ruined by installing heavy accoutrements never or rarely used. If you like the way the airplane flies now, leave it alone. I have been flying the same PA-11 in stock configuration for 57 years and it hasn't let me down yet. I have also flown PA-11s modified with a -12 engine with starter, generator, and battery as well as heavy radio equipment and an extra fuel tank. It was a disappointing pig to fly.

I believe the General solid rubber 6' tailwheel tire is the only one available for certified airplanes. You can wear the tread off but the tire but it is still airworthy. Landing on a paved runway grooved for water dipersal wears the tread off very quickly. Ay least they are still available.

[JP]

one of the first things I did to my 11 was add 26 inch Airstreaks and a 3200 tailwheel. The 3200 is overkill for the 11, but reliability and function in this case count for more.

MTV

I love my 3200 on the 11. I did, however, see one break and fall off once!

[buckchop]

Put a T3 on it

Glenn

The T3 tail wheel setup if JUNK!!!!
Buy an ACME stinger, i did. I put the T3 on my 12 did a drop test in the shop a few times took it back off and sold it asap, was on the unfinished plane for a whole hour. POS!!! Sorry i dont powder puff things.

[cubdriver2]

The T3 tail wheel setup if JUNK!!!!
Buy an ACME stinger, i did. I put the T3 on my 12 did a drop test in the shop a few times took it back off and sold it asap, was on the unfinished plane for a whole hour. POS!!! Sorry i dont powder puff things.

Mine has been on for over 600 hrs now. Still love it

Glenn

[bob turner]

I don’t think I could agree more with Waldo - except to say that my J3 with Stroker, starter wing tank, and PA-11 struts, seems as agile as it did in 1962 when I bought it, stock, with A-65 and Case mags.

We were having the exact same discussion in the Super Cub hangar last night whilst sipping Torpedoes. “What,exactly, do those cables do?” And - “Why is this thing so Slow?” Questions for an aircraft that is never operated on an unpaved surface of any kind. 160 Super Cub; 400# useful load.

[40m]

The T3 tail wheel setup if JUNK!!!!
Buy an ACME stinger, i did. I put the T3 on my 12 did a drop test in the shop a few times took it back off and sold it asap, was on the unfinished plane for a whole hour. POS!!! Sorry i dont powder puff things.

I have had a T-3 on two different cubs, for me it was about ground handling and a T-3 made a vast improvement over stock springs. Intentional drop testing my airplane never occurred to me. I'm talking about my baby here.

[akavidflyer]

The T3 tail wheel setup if JUNK!!!!
Buy an ACME stinger, i did. I put the T3 on my 12 did a drop test in the shop a few times took it back off and sold it asap, was on the unfinished plane for a whole hour. POS!!! Sorry i dont powder puff things.

funny, I have been running one for a couple years and love it. Lots of other people do as well. Can't really make that assumption based off unfinished tests and not even taking the time to dial it in. Did you buy yours new or used?

[buckchop]

funny, I have been running one for a couple years and love it. Lots of other people do as well. Can't really make that assumption based off unfinished tests and not even taking the time to dial it in. Did you buy yours new or used?

Was a used one, i didnt like the light weight design of the main mounting part.
No im not into drop tests either BUT the ACME AERO will suck it up better than the T3.
Leni, come visit and fly my 12, ull c.

[buckchop]

Find the N number and/or the serial number, look it up on https://www.faa.gov find the address and go knock on the owner's door.

And i do know the gentleman that owns it that pa11, have his name, address and phone. But still never any contact with him yet to buy it.