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Thread: Great project for someone

  1. #1

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    Great project for someone

    Not mine and no financial interest!

    This would be a great project for someone. Used to belong to Jim Martin at Peekskill Sea Plane Base

    https://m.facebook.com/groups/aircra...1727415852542/


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  2. #2

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    Scan 30 Grumman Widgeon.


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  3. #3
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Not mine and no financial interest!

    This would be a great project for someone. Used to belong to Jim Martin at Peekskill Sea Plane Base

    https://m.facebook.com/groups/aircra...1727415852542/
    That facebook page is private. If it's the plane I think it is, it would be a project. Whoever get's it make certain to do a though corrosion inspection. I've found spar caps corroded to the point of needing major repair (a whole new center section) ..... behind the firewall. This was only found during a major engine alteration when the firewall was removed.
    NX1PA

  4. #4
    mvivion's Avatar
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    As I recall, the SCAN Widgeons weren’t corrosion proofed during construction, is that correct, Pete?

    MTV

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    Mike,
    Correct, no alodine on them. Just waiting for corrosion!
    One can tell the ones by Grumman when stripped, tough grey color, not natural aluminum that is pretty bulletproof.
    John

  6. #6
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    As I recall, the SCAN Widgeons weren’t corrosion proofed during construction, is that correct, Pete?

    MTV
    The aluminum on the SCAN widgeons was alodined prior to assembly.
    The aluminum on the Grumman widgeons was anodized prior to assembly.

    Both methods are supposed to pass corrosion proofing standards. Yet, Anodizing has a much better track record in this regard. Alodine really needs a good corrosion preventing primer over it.
    Both methods when used in salt water, need constant attention.
    NX1PA
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    It sat for many years in a hangar at the Peekskill Sea Plane Base right by Indian Point Power Plant. In all the years I worked on Jim's other airplanes and the tenants' airplanes at Peekskill it never moved. A lot of the paint was peeling but I don't recall what it looked like corrosion wise. I don't know if the current owner ferried it to Hazelton PA or if it was disassembled and trucked there. Certainly a big project, but that would be one cool airplane to fly around in! Asking price is down to $80k
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  9. #9
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    It's a big job to dismantle and truck one of these. I did one which had been stored in Islip ny for years. Took the wings off, then with a wide load permit (center section on) on a ferry across LI sound.

    This one has an expired registration in Wyoming. Do you suppose it never made it home after leaving Peekskill?
    NX1PA

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    Donít know but the guy advertising it says Hazelton PA. Also says no books, donít know if that was from the auction after Jim died or maybe the guy out west has them and this is a sheriff sale.


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    The radial engine conversion is the worst choice on a Widgeon. The SCAN airplanes did not come finished with engines, so all aftermarket. And I think metric was used in them. Build in France under license from Grumman, did not work out, thus the non complete airframes without power.. Heavy and do not have the performance of the GO 480 engines.
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    G44's Avatar
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    If you gave me that airplane for free I still wouldnt take it if required to restore it. My dad undertook a Widgeon restoration project that was expected to take about 6 months and 50 grand (1980 dollars) to restore actually took 8 years and 250 grand! That included a labor rate of 15 bucks an hour from a very talented mechanic and all the work my dad put into it. My brother and I helped but the majority was my dad and his hired AI mechanic craftsman. We started with an airplane that was actually in pretty good shape. When it was done it was stunning! I was lucky enough to buy it from my dad and I flew it all over New England for a few years before I sold it. My point is, Widgeons are very labor intensive to restore and maintain, not the easiest airplanes to fly as John can confirm both. That being said they sure are incredible airplanes, I would rather have one than a Mustang. I sure do miss mine.

    Kurt
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  13. #13
    85Mike's Avatar
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    I found a Widgeon in a very remote back country hangar probably 30 years ago. It had the Ranger engines! The owner wasn't interested in selling it. He also had several Rangers on pallets. I'd bet it's still there! Now that would be a PROJECT!!
    Mike

  14. #14
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I maintained a sister ship (7912C) to this one for many years. The airplane never went in salt water so there was no issue with the alodined aluminum. I considered the difference between the Grumman and the SCAN to be a nonissue as long as it is only used in fresh water. Those engines were another issue. You never knew when the oil control rings in the nose case were going to give up the ghost. Turned out to be the counterweights on the prop blades. They were too big. Final solution was to change the engines to TIO-540-J2BD counter rotating with Navajo cowlings.

    The one I brought across LI sound on a ferry boat was a Ranger powered G-44, a one owner airplane which had been in storage since the middle 50s in like new condition. That one flew the best, very light weight. The Irish linen on the surfaces was still airworthy after 50 years.

    I had to change a center section on an Anodized Grumman due to corrosion because of a lot of salt water use early in it's life. Pan Am had used it for training purposes at their base at Sands Point LI.

    With what I know about these, this one is overpriced at $80k.
    NX1PA
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  15. #15
    aflyer's Avatar
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    I owned a ‘43 Widgeon for 4 years that I bought “fully restored”. I flew it for 200 hours and worked on in for 2000. I never made a trip that didn’t end in a failure of some system. I’m with G44, I wouldn’t take this one for free.

    it is a wonderful airplane when everything is working.
    If it ain't broke - improve it
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    Yep, I loved flying other peoples Widgeons.....and they paid me....
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  17. #17
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Charlie Hillard had a nice Widgeon. We were building his Hawker Fury in the mid 90s in Breckenridge, TX and he would come over pretty regularly from Ft. Worth in his widgeon or his Piper Clipper. The one Saturday I wasn't at the airport he came in the Widgeon and took some of the guys splashing on the lake.
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    Steve Pierce

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  18. #18

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    Charley's Widgeon was a very good one. I have had 3 Widgeons over about 25 years. They are truly the sports car of the amphibians. Had more fun in them than any other airplane. Rocket takeoff, when light about 8-10 seconds on water.
    McKinnon conversions are the best performers if they are light ones.
    Never had any real issues with them, but all were redone once I bought them. One was heavy with too heavy interior, retract floats, etc. It had been wrecked 3 times, rebuilt each time prior to my ownership.
    Light is best in any amphib.

  19. #19
    G44's Avatar
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    This was my Widgeon. Original Ranger engines, full feathering CS composite CS props instead of the original wood props. This airplane was very light and was an incredible performer.


    Tried to post picture but it wouldn't post…..

  20. #20
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    This is the sister ship to Charlie Hilliard's Widgeon. They were a group of three which were brought home from Thailand. This one was wrecked by Jimmy Buffet at Nantucket. In spite of it being a salt wreck there was no corrosion as it had been doused all over inside with Paralketone. What a mess, but it works. I supervised the rebuild and engine conversion. It had a broken wing and the bow was broken off.


    This is the sister ship to Jim Martin's after the engine conversion. Formally N7912C.

    This is the ex Pan Am Widgeon with the new center section.
    NX1PA
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  21. #21
    G44's Avatar
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  22. #22

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    Those 540 turbo conversions are pretty heavy? Bet empty weight into high range? What do they weigh? Never quite understood a turbo for amphib, normally operating near sea level. And big fuel burn too?

  23. #23
    G44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john schwamm View Post
    Those 540 turbo conversions are pretty heavy? Bet empty weight into high range? What do they weigh? Never quite understood a turbo for amphib, normally operating near sea level. And big fuel burn too?
    John, if I remember correctly close to 5,000 pounds��. My empty weight was around 3,300 like I said, if I remember correctly.

  24. #24
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john schwamm View Post
    Those 540 turbo conversions are pretty heavy? Bet empty weight into high range? What do they weigh? Never quite understood a turbo for amphib, normally operating near sea level. And big fuel burn too?
    I don't recall the weights, but you are correct they are heavy. With the heavy R-680s it was a struggle to get to 10 or 11,000 feet, with the turbo there was no limit. Also with the turbo, they put out 350 hp. for take off. A real screamer off the water with a load. And yes they are thirsty.
    NX1PA

  25. #25
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john schwamm View Post
    The radial engine conversion is the worst choice on a Widgeon. The SCAN airplanes did not come finished with engines, so all aftermarket. .....
    So what radial engine was used?
    Seems like Ive heard of Widgeons fitted with jakes.
    In fact, wasn't one of those used on the intro to the old Fantasy Island TV show?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  26. #26
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    So what radial engine was used?
    Seems like Ive heard of Widgeons fitted with jakes.
    In fact, wasn't one of those used on the intro to the old Fantasy Island TV show?
    No Jakes, Lycoming R-680-13 and yes on Fantasy Island.
    NX1PA
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  27. #27
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Steve Harvey in Kodiak likely has more time in Widgeons than anyone in history. He’s been flying “Grumman 481” in air taxi for many decades…..in Kodiak. A fairly tough environment.

    The Widgeon was Orin Seybert’s favorite for years. I spent a few hours doing sea otter surveys in rage Aleutians in his right seat….a Master with that airplane.

    MTV

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    Kurt,
    I think they are about 4500 lbs empty weight. A lightweight McKinnon should be about 3800lb range. At the bigger weight they need the added HP, but still do not perform like lighter ones. Even had to move the battery aft of rear door to obtain weight and balance specs. they float really low in the water too, so need all that HP to get on step.

    No radial was ever built by Grumman on Widgeon, Ranger engines only, only raidial ones were SCAN versions, aftermarket engine as they came without engines, airframes only.
    And Mike, Orin was the consummate Widgeon driver, they were his favorite. Saw him this summer and he confirmed that.
    John

  29. #29

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    I used to fly one years ago. Now I just make custom parts for one belonging to a friend. Very expensive to maintain especially if used a lot. Both engines, main gear, hard rubber tail wheel, alternators and a lot of other small stuff. Another friend has one with TIO540s. Nice old planes if you have the money.

    Jim

  30. #30
    G44's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=john schwamm;840301]Kurt,
    I think they are about 4500 lbs empty weight. A lightweight McKinnon should be about 3800lb range. At the bigger weight they need the added HP, but still do not perform like lighter ones. Even had to move the battery aft of rear door to obtain weight and balance specs. they float really low in the water too, so need all that HP to get on step.

    No radial was ever built by Grumman on Widgeon, Ranger engines only, only raidial ones were SCAN versions, aftermarket engine as they came without engines, airframes only.
    And Mike, Orin was the consummate Widgeon driver, they were his favorite. Saw him this summer and he confirmed that.
    John[/QUOTE

    Ya, 4,500 sounds right. I just remember it was heavy.

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ID:	64512My last Widgeon, the lightest one.
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  32. #32

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    I got my rating in Anchorage in N86638 in the late 70’s. It was owned by Mike Maxwell and on leaseback to Pats Flying Service where I was working at the time. Fast forward to the late 80’s and I’m flying corporate out of New England and stop in Harare Zimbabwe for fuel. The handler is British and when I walk into his office to pay, there is a large photo on the wall of N86638… When I get over my twilight zone moment, I ask him about the picture and he says he helped the owner, Mike Maxwell ferry it to Alaska when he bought it.. Truly is a small world.
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  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by john schwamm View Post
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ID:	64512My last Widgeon, the lightest one.
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  34. #34
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Just in case any of you want a 'friend' to ride along in the widgeon, give me a shout

    I am even rated for it!

    Like Beavers and Otters, the best ones are the ones someone else is paying the bills on, and paying you to fly.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  35. #35
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Speaking of widgeons, this is an updated version.
    It flies around the puget sound area pretty regularly.


    https://www.gweduck.com/index.html
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  36. #36

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    Long time lurker, first time caller…

    Have gained a lot of knowledge from y’all!

    skywagon8a - does the name Gordon Newell ring a bell? 4B2, Riverside airport, was working on getting a Widgeon right with the FAA, 1992 or thereabouts…

    Cheers,
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  37. #37
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 49R View Post
    skywagon8a - does the name Gordon Newell ring a bell? 4B2, Riverside airport, was working on getting a Widgeon right with the FAA, 1992 or thereabouts…

    Cheers,
    Yes, Gordon installed Continental IO-520s with a Dean Franklin conversion on his Widgeon. Ned Rice who was a retired engineer from Pratt & Whitney helped him getting it certified as a one only STC. Ned told me that was a great performer. Ned did the engineering for the TIO-520-J2BD STC also. The FAA in Seattle designated him as a DER for the project.

    I've wondered how a Continental IO-550 would do with the Dean Franklin conversion? .
    NX1PA

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