AgCat Banner Towing

[D.A.]

I know this isn't a Super Cub but I think there are a lot of AgCat pilots as well as banner pilots on here so hopefully you'll find it interesting. 30+ yeas ago I had a banner business in So Cal with an old 600HP AgCat that I bought at an auction. The world's foremost aerial advertiser, Wayne Mansfield, had 600HP Stearmans in the Northeast and Col. Joe Kittinger had a 600HP AgCat towing 12' high letter banners in Florida. Both Wayne and Joe were helpful to me in trying to get the banners to fly right. I've been clearing the decks of junk that no one else should have to go through and I came across a tote full of old VHS, VHS-C and Sony8 videos. I was going to throw the whole batch in the trash and at the last minute decided to check to see what was there, and I found this video. Back then, Santa Paula was a magnet for old guys that liked old airplanes and this old timer happened to be there and videoed a couple banner pickups that I made. I don't know who he was, I never actually met him (I was flying), he gave the tape to my wife and that was that. Who knew that would end up being the only footage I'd ever have of the operation. The video quality is very poor, sorry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNLGIkbpM3w

[Speedo]

Cool video!

Back then, Santa Paula was a magnet for old guys that liked old airplanes

Forty years ago it was a magnet for young guys, too. I took some aerobatic lessons there from Ken Kranz in his S2B, and loitered around K. D. Johson’s hangar while he swatted flies and talked Pitts. Good memories.

[dgapilot]

I towed gliders and banners with a 450 Cat. While I liked flying it, I think an L-19 was better suited to the task. 600hp would be good, but a lot of gas. Most of the signed I towed went pretty long distances (NJ and LI beaches), fuel capacity and range were important considerations.


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[Bassackwards]

Thats great! I had a couple of Ag-Cats a long time ago. One of the best sounds in the world is an Ag-Cat on takeoff, Wish I would have keep one for a fun plane!

[flagold]

Good to see - thanks for the memories. I too have a lot of Cat time, it was by far my favorite. I knew Joe K. - the airplane(s) were actually owned by Bob Snow (Rosie O'Grady's Church Street Station). He owned all kinds of stuff - I remember us leaning out the Allison of a P-40 to see how far we could get flames out the stack, anyway, all that is gone now.

[Waldo M]

Thanks, D.A. The Ag-Cat is indeed a very good airplane. Beautiful in the sense of being perfectly designed for a specific purpose, like a D-8 Caterpillar.

A very long time ago, I got to work 450 and 600 HP cats. I also sprayed in 450 Stearmans, an airplane that helped build an industry. The comparison between them was interesting [and logical]. The Stearman filled its agricultural flying roll remarkably well for an airplane that was designed for another purpose. When Grumman engineers started working on the G-164 [Ag-Cat], they had to come up with a purpose-built airplane that would outperform the Stearmans that were the industry standard. The Ag-Cat did that. It hauled a heavier load with the same horsepower, had even more benign flight characteristics, better cockpit visibility, was easier to maintain, and was more crashworthy. Everything a Stearman would do, The Ag-Cat did a little better, with two exceptions. The Stearman would fit under lower power lines and climb a tree line [you could get closer to an obstacle before pulling up] like no other airplane.

I was lucky enough to visit Santa Paula Airport a few times over the years. It is a special place.

[frequent_flyer]

Many years ago there was an AgCat towing at a glider contest at Moriarty NM. One of the ballasted gliders got badly out of position early in the takeoff roll and should have released. Instead he went off the runway completely out of control. Any other tug would have needed to release or be pulled off the runway too. The AgCat just lifted off and dragged the still out of control glider with it. Both frightening and very impressive.

[D.A.]

I knew Joe K. - the airplane(s) were actually owned by Bob Snow (Rosie O'Grady's Church Street Station)...

Wasn't the flying operation called "Rosie O'Grady's Flying Circus"? That was quite a place. They made their own banner letters, they made hot air balloons. I remember the ground crew would keep track of the pickups Joe made. He picked up a banner and the guys yelled out a number. I asked what was the number and they said every time Joe did 100 pickups without a miss they had a party. The number they yelled out was 400 and something! Is it just me or is the world really just different now? Anyway, good memories.

[D.A.]

Forty years ago it was a magnet for young guys, too. I loitered around K. D. Johson’s hangar...

I spent all my formative years at Santa Paula and then later so did my kids too. It seemed like all the golden age airline pilots based at LAX retired to Santa Paula to build and enjoy the airplanes of their youth there. There were so many cool planes there at that time; Travel Airs, Wacos, Gypsy/Tiger Moths, Monocoupes, and how many airports had multiple Buhl Pups! I was a gas boy for Rex Wells during the time that K.D.'s wife Betty was active in the IAC. This very polite, small, classy lady would go out for about 12 minutes and pull the guts and feathers out of her Pitts and then come back, I'd gas her up and she'd spend the rest of the day wiping her Pitts down with Lemon Pledge. Good times!

[flagold]

Wasn't the flying operation called "Rosie O'Grady's Flying Circus"? That was quite a place. They made their own banner letters, they made hot air balloons. I remember the ground crew would keep track of the pickups Joe made. He picked up a banner and the guys yelled out a number. I asked what was the number and they said every time Joe did 100 pickups without a miss they had a party. The number they yelled out was 400 and something! Is it just me or is the world really just different now? Anyway, good memories.

Yes it was called that. Joe wasn't the only pilot, I forget how many they had but he was the most famous name of course.

And yes the world is very different beginning with 9-11. Flying changed forever shortly after that when a lone quack suicide pilot took off in a Cessna and rammed the SunTrust building in Tampa, taking out 2 panes of glass, killing himself, and killing General Aviation as we knew it in the process. Loads of press coverage at the time about these little terrorist killer planes flying around with no one in control of them at all! And the airports they fly from - unlocked! On and on and on. The result: you look up to an empty sky on most days in the lower 48 instead of one with as many little planes as Christmas ornaments on the tree. Wherever it all winds up - the final blow to GA freedom began with that public panic.

But the memories are very good indeed. Very good.

[WhiskeyMike]

[QUOTE=D.A.;839654]I know this isn't a Super Cub but I think there are a lot of AgCat pilots as well as banner pilots on here so hopefully you'll find it interesting. 30+ yeas ago I had a banner business in So Cal with an old 600HP AgCat that I bought at an auction. The world's foremost aerial advertiser, Wayne Mansfield, had 600HP Stearmans in the Northeast and Col. Joe Kittinger had a 600HP AgCat towing 12' high letter banners in Florida. Both Wayne and Joe were helpful to me in trying to get the banners to fly right.

Dave, Thanks for the nice compliment. Through the years we operated a total of 11 Stearmans, 4 with 450s and 4 with 600s, along with 4 AgCats, the last 2 of which we flew from Santa Paula. They were very good airplanes and I'd like to say I miss them, but to be honest, my ears got kinda worn out and near the end of our AgCat ops, I started closing the windows to keep the pounding exhaust noise out. Also, the cost. We'd tow from Santa Paula to San Diego, refuel and fly another banner with the right side reading towards the beach, returning in 4&1/2 hours to SZP. 9 hours per day. We had a variety of aux fuel tanks, but the bottom line was I had to make certain I had $1,000 available for fuel mid-day when we arrived in San Diego. Ouch! Sometimes the wind would come up strong from the W/NW and I remember passing Malibu, watching the Cat's fuel gauge bobbing in the red zone. What a lousy feeling! It's not wild bush flying, but the ocean is ocean everywhere. BTW. One guy in the Central Valley of CA got into a peeing match with a fed and the feds issued a national notice that NO AgCats were to be licensed for banner flying except those grandfathered in. He won the battle and lost the rest of us the war.

We always preferred 180 Cubs, but the initial cost was so high it made it difficult to acquire them - plus the cost of extra fuel like Atlee's 60 gallon tanks. The Cub is King of tow planes and a really long wing 180 Cub cannot be beat by anything, except maybe a Turbo Porter.

As for Rosie O'Grady's, my dad sold our SNJ-4 to Bob Snow who had a phenomenal operation with Joe Kittinger as chief pilot. AgCats, Stearmans, Staggerwing, SNJ. He believed in Aerial Advertising, and he proved the value by building the phenomenal Church Street Station in Orlando.

Yup, nothing like a big radial - unless you're paying for it, or suffering from extreme dehydration at the end of 8-9 hours open cockpit flying in extreme heat or freezing cold.

My next Cub will be just for fun...hmmm... classic paint design, lighter than a popcorn fart and a 160 with a new fangled light weight prop. Steve P are you listening?

[CenterHillAg]

Great footage, can’t say I’ve ever seen an Ag Cat doing anything but ag work. A somewhat local guy owned Kittinger’s Cat for a while, although I never saw it fly. Cat’s are the only plane I feel some sort of soulful connection with, I’ve worked 6 and enjoyed each of them. Wrecked 2 and they took care of me, a scratch on my hand is all I have between an engine failure at 50 ft and slicing a wing off hitting a wire at 135 mph. Try looking for stall/spin fatalities and see what you find, not much. Nothing compares to the flight qualities, lighter controls than a J3 and more stability than a Cessna. Pull out of the field and point it at the moon, keep pulling and return to the field. The guy that broke me in flying rice was around for their debut, and said a 220 Cat felt like a plane that could do no wrong compared to a Stearman. Never flew another ag plane from 1963 to retirement in 2018. My plane is a lightly updated version of the original Cat, an A model with the minor difference of a PT-6 on the nose. Incredible plane and there’s no upgrade for me, I plan to fly it the rest of my career. It’s headed to Frank Kelley this fall for a rebuild, I suppose it deserves it after 50 years of work.

[Waldo M]

Was the guy that broke you in Emery Lyon? He has a pretty good story regarding why he changed his mind about becoming an Ag-Cat dealer instead of a Snow [became the Thrush] dealer.

[CenterHillAg]

Ha, no I’m over in Texas and Mike Ramsey broke me in, but he had a great story about why he wouldn’t buy Air Tractors. When Leland Snow was touring with his original Snow model, Mike was 20 with 2 years of spraying already, and climbed on the wing to check out the cockpit. Leland yelled at him, “hey kid, get the hell off my plane!” He was so disgusted he refused to ever buy anything Leland Snow touched, although he bought some AT wrecks for the engines over the years.

I buy a lot of parts from Landry Aero and Larry(now deceased) worked at Lyon’s for years. The knowledge the Louisiana guys have of Cat’s is incredible. He could put together hardware kits from memory for every piece of every Ag Cat design.

[Waldo M]

Here's what Emery told me.

It was about 1959 and Emery was all signed up to be a Snow [monoplane] dealer. In the mean time, he was working rice in a Stearman and tangled with a standpipe.

The standpipe took out most of the left lower wing, but Emery could keep the airplane from rolling over when he firewalled everything and dumped the load. That left the airplane flying left hand circles with full opposite aileron and some rudder deflected right. He started thinking about how he was going to get the airplane on the ground without taking it further apart as it slowly drifted up to about five hundred feet AGL. There was some wind at that altitude and the circles began drifting slowly North. Eventually, he found himself orbiting over some pastureland and decided that was where he would try to land what was left of the airplane. He kept the speed up, backed off on the throttle a little, and touched down at a very high speed. Emery said that the rollout was pretty rough but he kept things gathered up and came to a stop in one piece. He commented "Right there, I decided that I had lost all interest in selling monoplanes".

[Hardtailjohn]

I worked in Alaska with a guy named Johnny Vincent, who flew for Col. Joe, and at one time held the record for the most letters pulled with the Cat. A few years later, Joe was the speaker at our Aviation Conference, and I got to spend part of a day with him. When I mentioned Johnny, he really lit up, and I got to hear a bunch of stories of their time down there. He was quite a man, and I was honored to get to know him, just a little.
John

[KevinJ]

[D.A.]

$40 Grand for a 600HP bitch'n AgCat - - - How is that not a good deal!!! Never mind ag for a moment, that's cheap just as a sport plane.

[D.A.]

I worked in Alaska with a guy named Johnny Vincent...

I remember Johnny. He seemed like a straight shooting good guy. I knew he went to Alaska but lost contact with him. Is he still flying up there?

[Waldo M]

$40 Grand for a 600HP bitch'n AgCat - - - How is that not a good deal!!! Never mind ag for a moment, that's cheap just as a sport plane.

It would be a ball right up until you taxied to the gas pump.

Unlike our Cub, the neighbors would know when I took off with this one. When the tip speeds on those AG-100 propeller blades approach supersonic at 2300 RPM, she does tend to announce her presence.

[Farmboy]

$40 Grand for a 600HP bitch'n AgCat - - - How is that not a good deal!!! Never mind ag for a moment, that's cheap just as a sport plane.

If I had a spare 60 I’d buy that Cat for 40 and have 20 to maintain it.


Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers…

[Farmboy]

It would be a ball right up until you taxied to the gas pump.

Unlike our Cub, the neighbors would know when I took off with this one. When the tip speeds on those AG-100 propeller blades approach supersonic at 2300 RPM, she does tend to announce her presence.

Waldo, you could buy this, keep it in your new hangar and let us borrow it…err, burn off the gas… on weekends.


Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers…

[skywagon8a]

$40 Grand for a 600HP bitch'n AgCat - - - How is that not a good deal!!! Never mind ag for a moment, that's cheap just as a sport plane.

With 1100 estimated hours on the engine? You're not far from spending another $65+k for an overhaul. https://www.laneav.com/r-1340 Is this plane worth $105+k as a restricted airworthiness toy?

[RaisedByWolves]

Thought it was on barnstormers a year ago for 25k


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[Waldo M]

[QUOTE=Farmboy;839741]Waldo, you could buy this, keep it in your new hangar and let us borrow it…err, burn off the gas… on weekends.

I'll speak to my financial advisor; you know, the one that thinks my hangar is too large. Im guessing that will be a short conversation.

[Farmboy]

….you know, the one that thinks my hangar is too large.

Hangar too large.





Hahahahahanahahahabbaahahahahahahaha




Pb


Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers…

[Steve Pierce]

I remember many years ago a friend bought the last light frame 450 hp Ag Cat built in Georgia and wanted me to fly it back to Texas. Called Nelson Ezell who had flown all kinds of warbirds. He told me to call Dave Ebie. Dave sprayed in AgCats and delivered the one we turned into a Potez 25 mail plane and hung a PT6 on for an IMax movie years ago. Dave didn't normally say much, or hadn't to me up until this point but I was surprised at our phone conversation. He loved the AgCat and said it was a big J3, just fly it like a Cub. His parting words when getting off the phone were "call me when you get it back and let me know how you like it." I get to this residential airpark near Atlanta. The guy is restoring a B25 if I remember right and he bought the AgCat for the prop blades, it had had a sign on the bottom wing. He installed ag blades and sold it to my friend. He tried to scare me to death. He told me if I landed it like a Cub I would stall it and bounce and flip it over. Sunday morning I fire it up and all the neighbors come out. I think Oh no, they are expecting a show, but I am not here to give them one. I taxi to the end of the strip and it is like being on an aircraft carrier looking down ravines on both sides. I spin it around and all I can think about is what this guy said about flipping this airplane over on landing. I was going to a neighboring airport since it was real light on gas. I finally decided to trust Dave and screw this guy. Poored the coals to it and she came to life. Made the nicest three point landing ever at the next airport and had a great trip. Never forget flying low over the rice fields of eastern Arkansas and getting jumped several times by Air Tractors or the look of my buddies face after I got home and we took the hopper lid off and I gave him a ride.

[CenterHillAg]

When I bought my 450 Cat I had 750 hrs in my J3, and maybe 20 hrs in a 172. You could crush 3 Cubs, stuff them in the hopper and it’d haul it like nothing. Needless to say I was intimidated. I was in Americus, GA and the owner slapped me on the back and said “go have fun, it flies like a big ol Cub.” Shaking from all the nerves I rolled the power on, and it jumped off the ground in less than 500 ft, and I was laughing by 50’ agl. I sold it last year to a friend so he can break his son in, and it pains me to see it fly. I’ve already told him I want to buy it back when they’re done. Richard Thompson had his Vincent ‘52, I’ve got my Grumman ‘73.

[KevinJ]

Says Red Molly to James, “Well that’s a fine motorbike”……..

Very nice reference!

[Hardtailjohn]

I remember Johnny. He seemed like a straight shooting good guy. I knew he went to Alaska but lost contact with him. Is he still flying up there?

Last I heard, he was an FAA inspector. He was on the waiting list when I worked with him. That would've been about '89?
John

[Hardtailjohn]

We had 2 light frame and a B, all with 985's. The stinky thing was a friend's.

[Waldo M]

Between working them in season and ferrying new ones in the off season, I got to fly a lot of Ag-Cats. Even got a hop in a Super B Plus a while back..

By far the best flying one I ever flew was a light 'Cat that came from the factory with an R-755 Jacobs. It had an R-985 on a French mount by the time I got to it. What a nice airplane that was.

It would be interesting to fly one of the first ones that had a Continental W-670 on the front.

[WhiskeyMike]

I almost bought serial #3 from Emory Lyon. It had a Continental W-670-9 tank engine / 240 HP / Gulf Coast Engines. Small wheels and fabric ailerons. Just before I set out from Boston for Louisiana, my FAA inspector (Corky Davison) suggested that I better check the type certificate data sheet before I spent the money. The TCDS specifies that the AgCat with W670–9 engine is not allowed to fly over congested areas and it's not eligible for a waiver to fly over congested areas. My assumption is that's because that engine was never certified regardless of the airframe it was installed in. I suspect that this is what later caused the trouble with the FAA inspector who arranged to stop issuing permissions to use AgCats for banner towing other than those grandfathered in. I always thought that would've been a beautiful flying airplane and I really liked Emery Lyon from whom I later bought an M&M Stearman that had been traded in on an AgCat. That M&M Stearman had exceptionally long Ruletto wings and a heavy stainless hopper. We sold it to Rosie O'Grady's and later bought it back.(Note the J78/15 Cadillac Tires) It ended up in Hyannis Bay in front of the Kennedy compound, when the carb blew off. I was right behind it in another Steraman and thought he'd hit a seagull. The late Corky Davison was my PMI for a period of time and later became a good friend when he worked as a DAR. He had worked in the Ag business in Arkansas years before and had a lot of knowledge. Despite the troubles that some people have with the FAA he and some of the other guys were very good to us and I learned a lot from them. Your milage may vary, as did mine from time to time.

We also flew banners on two 450B models in Nigeria in 1983 during the re-election campaign of Shehu Shagari. They'd been ferried there for ag work. Looks like they're still there in Google maps at the old Kaduna Airport. They told me then that there were a lot of SC's sitting rotting all over the continent. There was also a Cat sitting on a plantation waiting for a mechanic to install a replacement engine. I'm certain it is now well covered in jungle.

That's a story for another time and maybe a different site.

[Waldo M]

There were many airframe modifications done to Stearmans in an effort to make them better ag airplanes. The Ruletto wings mod was the only one that worked, in my opinion. They would haul a bigger load and the airplane flew across the field in a level attitude instead of the nose high attitude of other Stearmans. I don't know if the wings were mounted at a different incidence or it was just the undercamber of the airfoil that caused that.

I flew a Stearman with a set of four-aileron National High Lift wings and they were a disaster. It wouldn't haul a bigger load and the roll rate was noticeably slower than a stock airplane even with four ailerons. I guess it needed six of them. What a slug.

[Hardtailjohn]

The one I always wanted to get around was the King Cat...with the 1820. I built up an engine for one and a few for Bull Thrush's, but I only got to see one of the Cat's.
John

[skywagon8a]

Corky Davison, there's a name from the past. He signed off a field approval for a homemade aluminum 18 gallon belly tank on a PA-18 on his last day of work.

[hotrod180]

Corky Davison, there's a name from the past. He signed off a field approval for a homemade aluminum 18 gallon belly tank on a PA-18 on his last day of work.

I wonder how many PMI's spent their last few days on the job signing off a bunch of field approvals that otherwise they might have gotten static for from above?
Kinda like a slew of presidential pardons being issued the last days in office.

[skywagon8a]

I wonder how many PMI's spent their last few days on the job signing off a bunch of field approvals that otherwise they might have gotten static for from above?
Kinda like a slew of presidential pardons being issued the last days in office.

Good point. I knew this PMI for years, during which I was of the opinion he would only sign his paycheck. When he told me this was his last day at work .... He even printed off a copy of the entire project on the office copy machine.

[WhiskeyMike]

I flew a Stearman with a set of four-aileron National High Lift wings and they were a disaster. It wouldn't haul a bigger load and the roll rate was noticeably slower than a stock airplane even with four ailerons. I guess it needed six of them. What a slug.[/QUOTE]

I bought a 600 HP, Stearman, from Ace Deemers in Oregon. It was the airplane that always appeared in the TAP ads with the extreme droop tips. I couldn’t comment on the load lifting, but I thought it flew well with the exception that those extreme droop tips had a funny reaction / when you used rudder to lift a wing, it actually dug in and sent the wing down instead of lifting.

[cubdriver2]

Why mess with perfection? I have 116hrs pic in a 225hp Stearman and to me this is the most amazing flying demonstration of all time

https://youtu.be/RB5nYlKd-Dg

Glenn