Short Approach

Rob said:

Or you could have tightened it up and tied the runway up ounce landing as a flight... The pilot / tower relationship is always so much more pleasant when you're helping each other.

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The point was that this controller could not handle 5 aircraft in the class Delta at the same time. The aircraft were well spaced (probably more than 3 miles separation), arriving from the same direction, and with no prior agreement to operate as a flight.

Yeah. Best not to do any non-pre-briefed formation flying. I refuse to participate in those well-briefed 20 plane holiday fly-overs, because even if well briefed, there are always a few who think their way is better. Dangerous.

And yes, I am an experienced formation pilot - I do it weekly.

Back to the short approach. I submit that we now need a definition - a published definition - of a short approach. I suggest anything shorter than the AIM 1/4 mile final, but would accept any definition. Turn it over to the "air mission" folks?

As to tower vs non-tower - I hsve extensive no radio transcontinental experience, and now value that second set of eyes on the radar scope. My first seven years as a Cub pilot were with a compass, watch, and WAC chart. No notams.

mvivion said:

Our controllers with one exception, work hard and try. But they’re nearly all new (most former military controllers), they’re scared of their shadows, so everything slows down. On January 2 they shut the airport down to all VFR aircraft so all the private jets could leave after the holiday. On a good VFR day. Seriously, they couldn’t figure out how to mix traffic.

Land on the “wrong” runway (which they tell you to use) and you’ll spend twenty minutes or more waiting to cross the parallel. Imagine being a student, watching that Hobbs click over while you’re “learning”.

Heres the line for departure the day they shut down VFR:

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MTV

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Blows my mind. I finished my PPL there in the early 80s. It was uncontrolled, even with constant airline traffic.

Kind of breaks my heart. Haven't been there in a long time.

frequent_flyer said:

Traffic in the pattern is often sequenced in front of traffic on a long final. My final speed depends on the flow I have to fit in with. I would only be that slow if I had been asked to slow for sequencing.

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Missed the point on this one. I was answering the post about tower sending all the others around him but maintaining the same sequence.

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MTV[/QUOTE]


This sort of reminds me of Lake Hood the evening before moose season opens…..

frequent_flyer said:

The point was that this controller could not handle 5 aircraft in the class Delta at the same time. The aircraft were well spaced (probably more than 3 miles separation), arriving from the same direction, and with no prior agreement to operate as a flight.

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My apologies, it was not my intention to suggest emulating a Blue Angels performance in the pattern. I thought we were all landing, after having assembled some sort of flight together so the assumption was that some pre flight briefing had occurred. If we haven't even prepared our own selves, how do we judge the guy in the box while we only hear what is available on our end? Did he have something to solve on another freq? The phone? In the tower? Nah, he didn't keep up with us, burn him at the stake.... lol

FWIW, my formation flight is probably stunted by the standards of others here. Working side by side in ag is really pretty straight forward.

Take care, Rob

bob turner said:

Back to the short approach. I submit that we now need a definition - a published definition - of a short approach.

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You didn't like the FAA published definition that I posted to start this thread? I looked it up specially for you.

By golly, you are correct! I sort of thought it was out of the Airplane Flying Handbook, which is not a source of definitions. The Advisory Circular is such a source. But now we need to have a definition of a standard downwind distance - not an AIM suggestion, but something that would allow measurement using the 45 degree criteria.

If you run a one mile downwind, that means that a short approach would be anything less than a one mile final.

Next question: do you need a clearance to execute a short approach, once we have one clearly defined?

Bob, my take has always been once cleared to land it is up to you on how you make your approach. If I get cleared to land on downwind, I’ll do a “normal” approach so I will never be beyond gliding distance from the threshold with power off. That typically will be about a 1/4 mile final. In the pattern with other airplanes maintaining appropriate spacing given your speed and the speed of the traffic you are following dictates how you make your approach. If that extends beyond that 1/4 mile final, I maintain pattern altitude until I can execute a glide path that would get me to the runway with no power, then I start my descent. The only time I’ve ever said anything about the approach I’m making is if my intention is to land beyond the designated TDZ to get to a desired taxiway. In that case I just tell them I’m landing long and perhaps indicate the planned taxiway exit.


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Well, me too. I never ask for a short approach, and if I am #1, it is done at idle in almost everything I fly. That includes the Mooney - looks like a Cub pattern.

One caveat: we are expected to turn off at the first available taxiway. In the J3, that means a wrongway taxi, so I ask for, and get, a clearance for a more appropriate turnoff. Most don't know that - one Serco controller gave me a hard time for asking for full length.

I am located in Billings a class C deal. I almost always land with a short approach and long landing. Someone once told me the fast movers pretty much own the extended centerline including about 30 degrees right or left so I try to show up out of that zone. My short approach tends to enter mid field with a base to final turn at about the midfield point and landing within the last 500 to 1000 feet with a very short taxi and then exit. The controllers here know me well and no how to slip me in between fast movers. Listening and watching ADSB in you can position yourself to get worked in. Sometimes I will throw out all the flaps and slow to 60 and below to get the timing right. This I think entertains the controllers as they rarely see someone go that slow. When I do that I feel like I am hanging on a perch waiting to land. One time hanging on the perch I was cleared to land so I dropped the flaps gave it some power and dove for the runway. The controller asked for best forward speed and I replied "I am giving her all she got captain" ala Startrek. It is really fun trying to help out the controllers in this manner and it does not go unnoticed as I often get the thanks for my help. One time I made about a 310 degree turn to do this leveling out 20 feet above and landing in the last 800 feet with an airliner waiting to take off. Upon landing the airliner got on the radio saying "that was impressive". I guess I am used to doing unstable approaches which is good practice for the engine out. One time I asked for my usual short approach long landing and once again I knew I would entertain the tower as I landed perpendicular to the runway in a 23-28 direct crosswind. Did not even make it to the centerline of a 150 foot wide runway. The controller responded " that was an efficient use of the asphalt ". So back to the original topic. I think if you approach the runway anywhere within the area encompassed by 30 degrees left or right of runway centerline and end of the runway it is a normal approach. All other approaches other than that would then be a short approach. That is practically speaking from my experience with thousands of short approaches. Never been scolded by the tower using that logic.

About the only time I ask for a short approach it is for "short approach long landing". I only ask if I know the flow will allow it and I don't remember ever being refused. I would not make a short approach and long landing without clearance as there could be a conflict with aircraft waiting for takeoff.

If I'm number one and cleared to land, and I expect to land in the touchdown zone, I'll turn base when I think appropriate and don't feel I need anyone's approval to do so.

Many decades ago, I was told (instructed) by an ATC Specialist that the only time one needs to request a short approach is when my base leg will be INSIDE the approach end of the runway. I've always used that as cause to request a short approach.

If there's no traffic, I often don't let the touchdown point get 45 degrees off my shoulder.

And, as krines noted, IF the controllers clear me for a loooong runway, and I'm going to use an exit far down the runway, I ask for "short approach/long landing", and touch just prior to the intended taxiway.

I'd really like to do that here at BZN, as I have in past, but they keep switching me to the short runway instead, just so I can extend my taxi and require three more clearances.....

Billings....that's like an uncontrolled airport, but with folks to chat with on the radio.....

MTV

Is there any requirement for landing in a designated TDZ? I'm used to touching down close to my intended taxiway......might be on the far end of the runway.

cubdrvr said:

Is there any requirement for landing in a designated TDZ? I'm used to touching down close to my intended taxiway......might be on the far end of the runway.

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No requirement, as a courtesy, I TELL the controller that I plan to land long. I regularly hear from the BZN controllers "cleared long landing", but once you're cleared to land, the runway is yours.

MTV

mvivion said:

but once you're cleared to land, the runway is yours.

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At KDVT I can be cleared to land with 2 or more aircraft landing ahead of me and, quite often, there will be one or more takeoffs fitted in before I land. At which point did the runway become mine? Since I have had tower clear a takeoff when I was on short final (forcing a Go Around) I don't assume the runway is mine until I'm down and rolling out and, even then, only a small piece of it is mine.

As long as there is adequate separation tower can allow an aircraft to touch down behind me before I have exited. Alternatively, I can land while there is still traffic rolling out - ref - https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap3_section_10.html ref para 3-10-3 Same Runway Separation.

frequent_flyer said:

At KDVT I can be cleared to land with 2 or more aircraft landing ahead of me and, quite often, there will be one or more takeoffs fitted in before I land. At which point did the runway become mine? Since I have had tower clear a takeoff when I was on short final (forcing a Go Around) I don't assume the runway is mine until I'm down and rolling out and, even then, only a small piece of it is mine.

As long as there is adequate separation tower can allow an aircraft to touch down behind me before I have exited. Alternatively, I can land while there is still traffic rolling out - ref - https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap3_section_10.html ref para 3-10-3 Same Runway Separation.

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In the first case you would be cleared to land “number two, number three, or….. Or cleared to land “behind the xxxx”. Obviously the runway isn’t yours at that point, just as you are NOT cleared to land yet….you are sequenced.

And, yes, a controller who is brave enough can clear two planes on the same runway…..OSH they do it all day. You won’t find many controllers in the real world who will, though.

Nevertheless, when I’m cleared to land number one, I can land in the first half, the second half, or as krines noted, across the runway.

However, common courtesy would suggest that we inform the tower of our intentions to assist in their planning.

MTV

mvivion said:

In the first case you would be cleared to land “number two, number three, or….. Or cleared to land “behind the xxxx”. Obviously the runway isn’t yours at that point, just as you are NOT cleared to land yet….you are sequenced.

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"Number two cleared to land" IS a landing clearance. No additional landing clearance is given. I can be sequenced without a landing clearance using instructions such as "25L continue", "follow xyz about to turn base" etc.

Based on discussions in some international groups being given a landing clearance when not number one for the runway is a US peculiarity or perhaps aberration.

Now, now Mike those are some fighting words right there. After seeing that line of planes I was going to throw out the Boz Angeles word but I showed polite restraint. Can't understand why the papers every year publish an article about BZN and how much SLF (self-loading freight) they have. Kind of takes away from the quaint nature of BZN. When it comes to take offs and landings I do believe we have you beat. The other day I looked over and there where 2 UPS Boeing heavies and 2 Fed EX heavies unloading freight and an air force of small planes waiting to deliver those packages. We have Rocky Mountain College and their flight operations and not to mention the medical flights. Saw 5 medfights land in a row once. One time came home and it sounded like La Guardia. Got put on a 25 mile extended down wind number 8 to land. Obviously new controller. Just kidding here. Steve

Hey Mike - since we are talking about Montana traffic, can you foresee a Bozeman scenario for Glacier Park International? I was on the airport board for 20+ years and about 2006 we sort of pooh-poohed the idea of a parallel runway. On July 4th I always count the visible jets parked across runway 30 from my hangar. In 2022 a high of 18, last year 28. And those are just what I could easily see. Last hangar sites being built out right now on the northeast corner of the airport. I heard a rumor yesterday that there are requests for 14 more pads, which will have to be on the northwest corner of the airport. No infrastructure on that side of the airport yet.

Sorry Hank just gotta say Kali Angeles. Is the city airport still alive. One of the nicest places I have visited. OK I think we should stop diverting this thread and start a new one. How about the "The New Montana ".

krines said:

Now, now Mike those are some fighting words right there. After seeing that line of planes I was going to throw out the Boz Angeles word but I showed polite restraint. Can't understand why the papers every year publish an article about BZN and how much SLF (self-loading freight) they have. Kind of takes away from the quaint nature of BZN. When it comes to take offs and landings I do believe we have you beat. The other day I looked over and there where 2 UPS Boeing heavies and 2 Fed EX heavies unloading freight and an air force of small planes waiting to deliver those packages. We have Rocky Mountain College and their flight operations and not to mention the medical flights. Saw 5 medfights land in a row once. One time came home and it sounded like La Guardia. Got put on a 25 mile extended down wind number 8 to land. Obviously new controller. Just kidding here. Steve

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I’ve forgot the numbers they were poking around a year ago, but BZN is the busiest airport in MT, by a significant amount. I wish it were not true.

We now have flights by every major airline in the country I believe…..and most have several flights a day.

Hank, this airport has leased all available lots, they’re now developing more lots on the north side, and forcing the schools to move over there. Seems like all they’ll approve now are HUGE hangars. Yellowstone Club now has FIVE huge hangars (two big Gulfstreams fit with room left over) and are building two more. Heck, last two winters there’s been a Gulfstream service truck parked there as well…..a SEMI. Full machine shop?

Ijust can’t fathom all the $$$ floating around here. I’m sure GPI is going the same route. Good news is Kalispell City airport is still open….for now.

MTV

mvivion said:

I’ve forgot the numbers they were poking around a year ago, but BZN is the busiest airport in MT, by a significant amount.
MTV

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Five planes a day?

Just funning you.

Remember Lake Hood, and dealing with all the traffic in that area?