Nice Plane- but did'n't fly much for ten years

[Cardiff Kook]

I'm looking at a nice 180. Checks all the boxes really. Low time airframe. Complete logs. No damage history. Well maintained- logs are actually legible and super clean.

One issue- (isn't there always one?) For the last decade the plane hasn't flown much- a couple of hours a year and at least a two year period that it wasn't flown at all. 80 hours in the last 10 years and 150 in the last 20. 2 years a decade ago where it wasn't flown at all.

Logs make it looks like it was a bit of a hangar queen- well maintained, and updated- but maybe 10 hours or less a year for 20 years. Kind of interesting actually to see someone upgrading a bunch of stuff- but not really flying it much. I read through the logs and I think "wow, this was a well maintained aircraft" then I look at the hours and I think "that didn't hardly fly."

Anyways- it's priced at a premium.

600 hours on the engine and priced like that- but wondering if I need to assume there is not chance of it making overhaul- especially with 2 years of no flying and several years of less than 10. Or maybe I need to price in a new engine out the gate?

Input appreciated.

[frequent_flyer]

One issue- (isn't there always one?) For the last decade the plane hasn't flown much- a couple of hours a year and at least a two year period that it wasn't flown at all. 80 hours in the last 10 years and 150 in the last 20. 2 years a decade ago where it wasn't flown at all.

I'd rather fly, and trust, my O-360 with over 3,000 hours since overhaul than an engine that I don't know and which has hardly been flown in 20 years. Other people won't touch an aircraft with 3,000 hours since engine overhaul.

There are no guarantees than any aircraft engine will keep runnning. I prefer the devil I know. (and yes it is registered 666)"

[behindpropellers]

New lifters to start. Probably will need cylinders soon. And brake lines. Takes 2-5 years to work all of the gotchas out.

T

[stewartb]

BS. It’ll probably run out if you fly it often. My plane is guilty of being underflown and it specs just fine. Get used to it. That happens when you own more than one. Dismiss the internet rhetoric, or become part of it.

[sub3]

My first airplane a low time Cessna 180 had a great pedigree but had sat for a number of years, was "taxied, etc.." Despite the naysayers, I flew the S*&^ out of it for a number of trouble free years. I made a wish list with my mechanic and we tackled what was necessary and a few big upgrade items at each annual. That O470 never missed a beat, outside of the lack of HP, it was a great first airplane. My only regret.. It wasn't a 185. Go for it!

[aktango58]

Speculate or investigate...

Have a really good Pre-buy done including pulling off a couple jugs and have a look at the cam and lifters. That is the only way you will know for sure.

One engine shop told me that they will all fly 50 hours, but then any pitting will start to tear the engine apart. If there is rust, it will become grinding compound when the oil flushes it through the engine.

Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. I have not had great luck with sitting planes and engine longevity.

[KevinJ]

Where’s it based? The Florida coast or the Mohave desert? A climate controlled hangar where the engine was pickled for those periods of inactivity or parked on a ramp in South America? It sure makes a difference

[CenterHillAg]

The 470 in my 182 had flown 20 hrs in the 15 years before I bought it, I’ve flown it about 275 hrs in the 6 years I’ve owned it. 1250 smoh in 1977 with nothing but routine maintenance before I bought it. I’ve replaced the mags, rebuilt carb, and 1 cylinder. I can’t complain, been a great engine, but I bought the plane cheap enough I was willing to take a chance on it.

[RaisedByWolves]

New lifters to start. Probably will need cylinders soon. And brake lines. Takes 2-5 years to work all of the gotchas out.

T

At the very least pull the exhaust and pull all the lifters out. But probably best to budget replacing them right away


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hotrod180]

....Anyways- it's priced at a premium.....

How much?
Last year's "priced at a premium" is today's steal.
I'd say do a good pre-buy,
maybe pull a cylinder like aktango suggested to get a look inside,
and if things look good, go for it.

[180_jeff]

...including pulling off a couple jugs and have a look at the cam and lifters. That is the only way you will know for sure.

You mean remove some pushrods/pushrod housings. You do not need to yank a jug or even remove the exhaust to pull lifters out.

[DENNY]

Continentals seem to hold up better than Lycomings to minimal use I would not worry to much as long as you had a good Pre buy inspection. The one point is you said it had a premium price!! Well for that I would expect a premium motor! Does it have a Sportsman cuff/wingX/what wheels are on the plane/does it have big tanks/what prop AD or issues are you looking at/is the tail AD done???. Don't get drooling over some candy in the panel and forget about the rest of the plane that really makes it fly!! Prices are dropping accost the board so I would not be in a hurry to buy.
DENNY

[Cardiff Kook]

My only regret.. It wasn't a 185.

Don't tell me that- I was set on 185's then said "maybe I can find a nice 180 instead." It does have the Kenmore up-gross kit to 3,190- and Texas Skyways 250 HP o-470 upgrade which I know nothing about. But no 520

[1934A]

What part of the country has it been hangared? If it's lived its life in the dry western U.S. it will probably be fine. I've heard stories about engines that have been sitting for extended periods of time needing work shortly after being returned to service, but more often than not, if it's been in a dry climate, it'll be just fine. If you go look at it, pay attention to peoplecs junkyards in the area. If the 1962 Chevy sitting in the junk pile still has good sheet metal on it, chances are the engine is fine. If you can't tell what the pile of rust in the junk pile used to be, turn around and go home.

[sub3]

theres no replacement for displacement and my family/friends pack heavy.

[Emil]

I agree with stewartb. Go for it.

[Bill Rusk]

I TOTALLY disagree with Stewart. The likely hood of that engine making TBO is small indeed. It likely has corrosion on the cam and lifters, and rust in the cylinders. It will seem great for about 100 hours then it will start making metal. All that rust and corrosion acts like grinding compound. Just takes a little time to take affect.
Yes, you can definitely get 3000 hours out of an engine if it is run up to full operating temperature on a regular basis. I spent a fair amount of time at the engine overhaul facility at Poplar Grove Airmotive. They overhaul over 300 engines a year. Engines that come in from a training airplane at TBO generally look like new, but the vast majority of their overhauls are no where near TBO but have lots of sit time. As Denny said, for a premium price I would expect a premium engine. Sitting is much harder than running for an engine. There are two parts to the life of an engine, time running and time sitting. If someone tries to tell you the engine is great because to only has 200 hours since TBO but that OH was done 30 years ago, that engine is junk. Yes, there are always exceptions to the rule and everyone loves to brag about a success story but most folks don't want to admit when they are taken for a ride.

Just my humble opinion

Bill

[stewartb]

Cardiff’s description is similar to my 180 when I bought it. It sat in outdoor storage at Lake Hood and flew very little. I watched him ground run it several times, too. The engine was no problem. My experience with Continentals has seen two for two factory engines fail at <100 hours. Old 470s usually get overhauled due to bad valve guides sucking oil (mine did). Not many have cam problems. Some do, but not many. 470 bottom ends are famous for being reliable. Lifter issues aren’t linear to age or time. It seems more prevalent with newer engines. Old guys never had problems in decades past.

[dgapilot]

About half of the 30 to 50 airplanes I annual each year fly less than 10 hours a year. Many less than 5. No matter what, it is always a crap shoot when you buy a used airplane. I just got a PA-30 that hasn't flown since 1999. We will see how the engines hold up!

[cfranks]

That is how I bought mine. Had been sitting for 8 years and the mice had a nice home. I did have some trouble with it after 200 hours and replaced a cylinder but it was definitely worth it. I live in West Texas and found my wagon here so no corrosion, but I did borescope everything. The first annual had some surprises but it was still worth it at the right price. I do like working on it and if you do that makes a difference in what you can put up with.
Mice damaged wiring, dried out engine mount bushings, any rubber, instruments that crapped out quickly, tires....all stuff I would consider before pricing. I agreed to my sellers price if he covered the first annual since "nothing was wrong with it". That cost him $15,000.

[DENNY]

Always buy the best of what you really want!! Never try to make something that is close better. It is like everyone saying whatever plane they have is able to go where the cubs go. It is true in some part because I go to a lot of long strips when flying with friends that can't go where I can. It is OK to look and dream but if you are going to put down cash what and buy the real deal not something close or you will spend a lot of money fixing it up only to sell it for what you really want. You still need to make a lot of mistakes with the plane you have before you move up to big metal anyway.
DENNY

[OLDCROWE]

What climate has it sat in, if hot and coastal then you best look at all its teeth...

Did they use Cam-Guard in the oil, it helps more than just the cam?

Personally, I wouldn't worry about the engine, it's not a Lycoming, the cam is more out of harm's way, but new lifters could likely be a wise investment. I would plan on topping it in a couple hundred hours and if you don't have to or you can get away with just dressing the cylinders up and replacing the rings and valve guides then you'll have a nice pre-paid vacation or engine reserve started. If it's really a low time bird lifters and cylinders are far cheaper than some of the other stuff us mid and high-time owners have had to or will have to do...

Lastly, all Unicorns have thorns, if it's what you're looking for, embrace the breed and have fun but wear gloves.

OC

[180Marty]

I still vividly remember Chuck Wentworth's words when I traded a 108 hp Lycoming for a 150(hangar collapsed on a Tri Pacer) for my PA 12 back when he was just getting started------"you're buying a pig in a poke". That engine turned out to be a good one and took me to Idaho a couple of times. Getting back to Cardiff's deal. my latest 180 is very similar to what he is looking at and mine sat a lot too from the mid 1980's around Sacramento CA. I had a friend look at it but not very thorough and bought it upon a new annual and delivery figuring it would be sort of a test. It had a 470U with a 35 year old overhaul and the mechanic I bought it from said he pulled number 6 cylinder and the cam checked out okay. The oil was black upon delivery so I changed it and it turned black almost immediately so I knew the cylinders were not too good. In the mean time I was getting my 470K converted to Pponk and put 25 hrs on the 470U. When the 470K was done, I installed it and took the 470U down to get it converted to Pponk. According to the work order the cam was reground in my second Pponk so the guy I bought from was telling me right that the cam was okay as was the case and the crankshaft.

[Rob]

One of my mentors had a dozen or so airplanes at his passing. Lots of really cool old birds, including probably the most complete and pristine C185 ag carry all in existence, and likely the single remaining Clevenger left in existence (totally restored as new). His health was compromised for the last couple years of his life, and while a few of us exercised his airplanes as much as feasible none of them really flew to what amounted to any 'good amount' of time. Since they were his passion, every single one was touched on, and embellished, restored, modded, or just plane made better, but flown very little.

Towards the end, he started selling a few off. the Siai went to a young guy in CO, good deal as I recall. The Fairchild had a tire kicker come take a look and Larry sent him to me as I was the last one to fly it. The guy hmmd and hawd, asked a bunch of stuff and was concerned about low hours on it. He was wondering if he really should be buying it. I finally said, it ain't none of my business, but what is he asking for it? it was probably really close to what a clapped out rental C152 would bring. Astonished that this guy couldn't justify that for a pristine 24 with a fabulous 165 Warner, I just bluntly told him to leave and buy the airplane, or I would. I didn't get the chance...

The point in all this, is that they're all different, and they're all a crap shoot. Don't pay premium for one that's not a premium airplane, but don't be afraid to roll the dice on what fits the mission (and you can correctly afford) because someone on the internet that's never laid an eye on it told you something is going to fail, because someone told him it would... The entire fleet of that gentleman airplanes were old tail draggers, the C185 being fantastically modern in comparison to the rest, and I routinely got in any which one of them without a thought, and would do it again today. Heck, I brought his '29 Travel air 4000 home across stretch of desert that would not be terribly fun to land unplanned, without a second thought and I am certain he hadn't flown it in two years, and then not more than an hour or two a month, tops.

People say the Lyc's (that sit) are harder on cams because the cam is on top and all the oil sheds and the cam ends up bare and susceptible to rust... OK, well news flash... the cam on the Conti is under the crank instead of over it, but it dam'd sure ain't submerged in oil.... lol. It's all hearsay... the only one that knows how that engine was last treated was the guy that treated it that way (maybe). If the acquisition cost approaches a level of concern, meaning it's close enough that you probably can't afford a major issue till you run it out for a while, take a non invasive peek inside. Tis the year of our lord 2023 for Pete's sake, borescopes are a dime a dozen. If someone anticipating purchasing one of my airplanes wanted to disassemble my engine to convince himself its the one for him, I'd make that decision for him... no sir, this airplane isn't for you.... I've bought cub's a 180, even a couple turbine Thrush sight unseen, but I bought them right. In fact the only airplane I really had buyers remorse over, was the single one I went all out on pre buy inspections on...

Anyways... There's an airplane (56 180) with a 8 hr Lycon Pponk in our neck of the woods that isn't advertised, but could probably be bought for $200k even, as a barometer. That's a tad rich for my blood, and the owners a friend that I'd really prefer to see keep the plane, but if that helps you put another metric to the market that's what it looks like around here.

take care, Rob

[Formandfunction]

I restored Cadillacs for 25 years. You could drive a pristine car that had been sitting and within 20 hours every front-end bushing would have fallen out. That's after you replaced all the rubber in the fuel system just to get it started. Looks like 300k but drives like a 77ford. Planes are kinda the same way though they don't have as much rubber they do suffer from sitting. Also a fact that maintenance on hanger queens is often put off towards the end. It's almost like someone loved something profoundly at first but lost interest. The sale usually comes when the repairs become overwhelming and it's buttered up/passed to some other sucker who gets stuck with the bill.

[stewartb]

Cardiff, what’s your definition of “premium” price? What factors do you prioritize in that decision? Total time? Panel? Engine time since overhaul? Engine time since new?

[thaefeli]

Local retired airline guy bought a very low time Maule 12 years ago. He promptly put on its nose.
He is a part time resident and is only here a month out of the year.
He had the engine done, put on a new prop. That airplane hasn't flown since.
He did, however, pull the airplane out at each visit and run the engine for 5 minutes "to circulate the oil".
Last year he decided to sell it. Prospective buyer had the local engine guy do a pre buy.
Shortest pre buy in history. It only took looking through one spark plug hole to see the rust.
When it was all done, that engine got all new internals and jugs. Everything steel part in that engine was rusty.

[stewartb]

Newly rebuilt engines are highly susceptible to rust. 600 hour engines, not so much. Avgas lead varnish is our friend.

[Cub Builder]

Continentals don't suffer the same damage from corrosion on the cam followers as what happens in the Lycomings. The metallurgy is different and the hardness of the cam followers is different. Pitting in a Lycoming cam follower assures a rapid death of the Camshaft as the hardened cam follower acts like a machine tool to cut away the cam lobe. The Continentals don't typically do that. Instead, the cam follower will wear away a bit and the hydraulic lifter will take up the difference in lifter height. It won't cut away the cam lobe like what happens in a Lycoming. You'll find the pitting and cam follower wear when you tear the engine down at TBO. Additionally, replacing cam followers on the big bore Continentals is a relatively simple process of just removing the pushrods and pushrod tubes, then pull the complete unit out through the pushrod hole. I have replaced them due to failed hydraulic units, but never between overhauls due to corrosion.

References about lifter, cam follower, cam failures almost always are based on experience with Lycomings. And the posts from those that bought Continentals that had been sitting aren't mentioning cam spauling issues at all. As always, there undoubtedly are some exceptions, but as a rule, cam/cam follower failures in Continentals from disuse are rare.

Run your cylinder compressions. Get a look inside the cylinders with a boroscope to inspect for corrosion. Look over the rest of the engine for general condition. Then buy it and fly it if it checks out good.

[Cardiff Kook]

Cardiff, what’s your definition of “premium” price? What factors do you prioritize in that decision? Total time? Panel? Engine time since overhaul? Engine time since new?

Ballpark:
$230k+ for a late model 180 (‘77 on)
$270k + for the same on a 185


I would consider airplanes priced there high or premium


All those planes should have 800 hrs or less on engine. Complete logs. Some have no damage history. Decent + paint/interior. Add a nice glass panel and you are over $300k.

Thats what I have seen at least…

[stewartb]

You need to get into a local network of Skywagon owners. Old guys are retiring from GA and they seem to be more interested in passing their planes to a good home than making money. Sadly some of those planes get bought just to get flipped at a profit. There are still some good deals out there being done quietly. I have a neighbor who’ll be selling a beautiful 180 soon. It’ll go for under the perceived market value. Last year my 180’s Vref was approx $200K but market price was 25-30% over that. I suspect that overage is correcting. Asking prices don’t accurately reflect sales prices. They never have. You need to decide what an airplane is worth to you and let that be your purchase offer.

[peterdillon]

The most important thing when you are buying an airplane is the airframe. Corrosion and damage history can be terminal cancer. Paint, interior, engines and props are the easy fixes. While it takes money to overhaul the engine it also instantly increases the value of the plane so not such a big deal if you paid a reasonable price for the plane. TBO should be translated to "It might if your real lucky". Owned a lot of airplanes over the years and the only real memorable event was when I was sleeping on the switch on a low time 1979 185 that an older gentleman had. Had some wing repairs that were not done properly and took $65,000 to fix. A low time airframe with an all original no damage history airframe or corrosion is where my comfort zone is. A top overhaul or even a complete engine is a small percentage of the value of a lot of these more expensive planes.

[WWhunter]

I restored Cadillacs for 25 years.

Neighbor had this in his basement for 60 years. I have restored cars in the past and definitely would have loved to own this, but it was way out of my budget. I think it got sold to a collector in California. An uncle, that recently passed, had restored very early Caddies. One he had done was for some guy in Great Britain. He knew a lot of people in the old car world. Not sure if he had done any work for Jay Leno, but they were acquaintances.


Back to the OT..

I haven't owned very many aircraft, but those that I have purchased that have sat and needed work, have almost always cost me more in the end. I always enjoyed working on stuff so have saved considerable amount of money in labor costs but when it comes to airplanes, parts costs can be high. Motorcycles, cars, boats, planes are all money pits. Life is short, take the plunge!

Having had to replace cylinders and pistons on the last 'sitting for several years' airplane, it's best to have another one that's flying. I'm still into the plane for less than it's value. The unfortunate part is that the 'sitting' plane was/is down for quite a while when waiting for parts/repairs. Something else to consider when making the purchase of a plane that has been sitting long term.

[aktango58]

As I recall, the Texas Skyways O-470 UTS is a 2500 TBO.


They are great engines. Put the scimitar prop on that thing. There was one here years back and it used to walk away from the 185 with the seaplane prop.

[hotrod180]

The most important thing when you are buying an airplane is the airframe. Corrosion and damage history can be terminal cancer. Paint, interior, engines and props are the easy fixes......

I agree, a good solid airframe is the most important thing.
A bad engine an easy fix....just not cheap.

As I recall, the Texas Skyways O-470 UTS is a 2500 TBO.......

The Continental 470U redlines at 2400 rpm,
but still makes the same 230hp as the other 470's due to higher compression.
My understanding is that the 470-U/TS is a 470U turned up to 2600 rpm.
This is a slightly different approach but gives you about the same results as a Nordland carb'd IO-470.

I read somewhere that TS claims the much higher TBO (2500 hours vs 1500 or 1700 for Continental)
due to a different placement of the drain on the oil pan,
that allows you to drain all the dirty stuff out at oil change time.
And something I just googled up sez that Pponk clained a 2000 hour TBO for their 470-50
if it was fitted with an oil filter.

[MartyC]

Cardiff, did you buy it yet?

[aktango58]

I agree, a good solid airframe is the most important thing.
A bad engine an easy fix....just not cheap.



The Continental 470U redlines at 2400 rpm,
but still makes the same 230hp as the other 470's due to higher compression.
My understanding is that the 470-U/TS is a 470U turned up to 2600 rpm.
This is a slightly different approach but gives you about the same results as a Nordland carb'd IO-470.

I read somewhere that TS claims the much higher TBO (2500 hours vs 1500 or 1700 for Continental)
due to a different placement of the drain on the oil pan,
that allows you to drain all the dirty stuff out at oil change time.
And something I just googled up sez that Pponk clained a 2000 hour TBO for their 470-50
if it was fitted with an oil filter.

The drain location is a condition for the 2500 hour TBO, yes.

The engine does get turned up in RPM, as Jack Johnson explained to me it allowed the required torque at take off power to be lower, making the engine work less hard, so would not pull itself apart like the early U versions were said to do.

Power they claimed as 250 hp. I had the 2 blade 204 prop on mine. Coming off the line that prop in calm wind was not much better than the old 230 hp with the C66... until I got up some speed. BUT, if I had 7-10 wind on the nose it was a rocket.

My plane was a 57. I would accelerate to 60 with that TS engine and start pulling the yoke back, with two big guys and half fuel the plane would climb what seemed like vertical. It would accelerate in the climb unless you had the deck angle scary high.

That was a great combo, I would not hesitate to have another one.

[Cardiff Kook]

The Continental 470U redlines at 2400 rpm,
but still makes the same 230hp as the other 470's due to higher compression.
My understanding is that the 470-U/TS is a 470U turned up to 2600 rpm.

How does 2600 rpm get you much? My understanding was these props at 2400 are supersonic and lose efficiency. Wouldnt an extra 200 rpm just be less efficient? Or am i thinking about this wrong because of the cs prop?

In any case- wouldn’t increasing the redline just increase the engine strain?

Havent bought it.

[Utah-Jay]

Build the BH, you know you want to

[stewartb]

How does 2600 rpm get you much? My understanding was these props at 2400 are supersonic and lose efficiency. Wouldnt an extra 200 rpm just be less efficient? Or am i thinking about this wrong because of the cs prop?

In any case- wouldn’t increasing the redline just increase the engine strain?

Havent bought it.

IO-520s have been spinning 86” props at 2850 for a long time. it works great. when somebody tells you 2700 works better? They’re repeating something they read. It isn’t true. There’s lots of BS on the internet.

FWIW, the slower turning 470-U was approved with a 90” prop. 2” longer than the other 470s. They had to make up the reduced thrust from lower RPM.