Thanks: 
Likes: Ha! Sorry Glenn, it’s just because he had more opportunities.
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Ha! Sorry Glenn, it’s just because he had more opportunities.
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Not true. He actually transitioned from an upright spin into an inverted spin and apparently became disoriented. At one point, my instructor in the S-2C decided we should demonstrate that. I’ve never been so disoriented that bad. It’s why the “Hands off, Power off” recovery procedure was developed. Don’t know which way is up? Power to idle, hands on canopy rail, and step on a rudder. If that doesn’t work, step on the other rudder.Originally Posted by Farmboy
MTV
Where did you get that information? According to the reports I could find he did a normal spin, recovered, then climbed back up and did an inverted - not one long spin.
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This was what was explained to me by my instructor…a theory that came from some in the aerobatic community. Sorry, I should have noted that before. In fact, nobody knows exactly what happened, the plane was not recovered. This was one of the theories, and the transition supposedly happened during the last spin. Transition from inverted to upright, or vice versa. The transition can be disorienting.
Last edited by mvivion; 12-31-2022 at 11:22 PM.
The difficulty is, to recover from an inverted flat spin, you first need to convert it to an inverted conventional spin, then complete the recovery with “normal” recovery procedurePARE. IF this is done a bit “enthusiastically”, the nose comes down to that of a conventional spin, but a bit too much elevator can drive it through into an upright spin.
After that transition, the view out the front looks very similar, and the forces are bizarre. The rotation is in the same direction, but now to recover, you have to apply opposite rudder. It’s wrapped up, and nose down, and if you haven’t figured out that you’re no longer upright….you’ll be applying rudder into the spin, not counter to it.
MTV
I don't recall that detail. It may have rotated at a higher rate to the left due to the torque effect of the higher power. That extensive spin testing took place 46 years ago.
NX1PA
While we are on this vein of thought… i listened to the Mark Murphy that Farmboy posted the link to
At the end when he finally recovered from the inverted spin he mentioned he avoiding a secondary stall
In my primary training Alan (my cfi) wanted a stall with a hard break and my only criticism on my private ride was my stall recovery.
Some of my primary training carried over into my commercial training in the A36 and this cfi cautioned against a secondary stall. My commercial cfi said the secondary stall could more of a issue.. echoing Mark Murphys comment .
Anyone know why??
Are there additional aerodynamics involved?
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This is something which varies from one airplane to another. Some airplanes may have that characteristic and some may not.
I flew an airplane (Colonial C-1) which had an extreme secondary stall issue, which required a very gentle pull up from a nose low position to prevent secondary and tertiary stalls. Stall recovery speeds were 30 or 40 mph above the stall speed with a very gradual pull up. Guess what the cause was? Someone had glued on a 12" wide piece of wing walk antiskid material at the inboard end of each wing starting at the center of the leading edge going back about 18". The leading edge of the wing walk made a sharp lip which caused that section of the wing to abruptly stall. The antiskid material was removed and the stall characteristics went back to normal benign. Those two 12" wide edges created an issue which could have caused the airplane to crash if the stall took place at a very low altitude. Stall recovery would not have been possible before striking the ground. I told Lake aircraft about this and they stopped putting antiskid material on the wings. Even the brushed on antiskid would cause stall issues.
NX1PA
As an aside, Art’s S2 had been modified for camera mounts and such - and while I expect he reviewed the weight and balance who knows if during a flat spin it had an effect.
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Scariest thing I ever saw that did not involve a wreck was a well-known local pilot performing an airshow in Bozeman in the 80s. He flew a Great Lakes biplane. He did a somewhat low, high-speed pass and pulled up vertical. Then he did a snap roll. But when he recovered it started what looked like an inverted flat spin. My heart sank, but at what looked like 400 AGL I heard him kick the power in and he sort of wobbled straight and did an inverted pass the other way.
His son was MCing the show. I worked for him at the time and asked him how he felt looking at that. He said, "well, Dad got a little too close on that one...."
Wow, so much fantastic information. One theory on Art S. was the possibility that one of the camera mounts came loose and prevented come control use; No memory where that came from, but a good lesson to remember before we go out pushing ourselves.
Spinning with skis... while Pete has the correct information that aircraft are required to spin for certification, remember that is a NEW plane with NEW rigging. Toss a set of old skis on with springs or bungees and rigging that have been field 'tested' with logs and drifts- so many things to go wrong!
I did lots of study on the Landis skis causing the 185 crash, which precipitated lower Vne and some other changes to the rigging. Scary stuff when you realize that a minor failure allowed the bungee to go into the prop which caused the engine to come off the mount and depart the plane, in an instant the plane came apart into many pieces including the cabin separating behind the pilot seat!
Lots of arm out there in front and behind the axle also. Little things make big changes.
Before I was going to be doing much 'aerobatic' type maneuvers on skis, I would think hard about how little holds them long things in place, and ask how much fatigue has already been used up in all that stuff.
Just me being overly concerned again.
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
Passengers in that C-185 detached rear fuselage land, look at each other, and say "beers, eh?"
Gary
BC12D-4-85 is right . No bungees on AWB1500 skis on the J-3
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The AWB skis have hydraulic riggers, which you can see in the photo.BC12D-4-85 is right . No bungees on AWB1500 skis on the J-3
MTV
Yes, experimental, built to piper j3 specs.
Go spin and see what happens. But first I'd do it w/o the skis to make sure recovery is correct. Unless you're already convinced.
Gary
As with any flight testing, build up to the final intended maneuver is how you reduce your risk. Plan your flight test program and follow the plan. STOP the test at the very first point that does not respond as expected and figure out why! Do not continue with the test program until you determine why and correct it!
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Good advice. And understand that YOU are the test pilot. Is the plane equipped with a quick release door? You wearing a parachute? Airplane equipped with a spin recovery chute?
There are many things that can change an airplane’s spin characteristics. Some of those things can change the spin to unrecoverable. Just one of those can precipitate the end of a very bad day.
MTV
Also - if you are still using bungees on your skis in this day and age, you might want to go get your head examined…
Totally agree. I haven’t used bungees since I had a brand new set “relax” at -20F
MTV
Around 1995 I was sent to Atlee's place to pick up some parts and pieces. I was up in Anchorage on a maintenance trip... Atlee was of course there and as he often did with me the discussion went to lessons he had learned that would make me a safer pilot/aircraft owner.
This particular day bungees were part of our discussion. He told me then that 'old' rubber were actually the best thing to have as the 'new' compounds lost their elasticity in the cold. He told me he say some bungees lose their 'spring' in a matter of a couple days.
His solution became the Atlee springs. He told me he sent a good bungee to the spring maker and had springs made to match the bungee tension all the way through it's capacity. Prior to that discussion I had not thought about the tension pressures being fairly constant, but the rubber bungees allow for a fairly constant tension through much of the mid-range, not a totally linear pressure like most springs.
Nanook, you have a knack for plain speak, your statement reminded me of how Atlee would approach a subject.
I do miss those parts runs and talking to him.
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