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Thread: Will the NX Cub Eventually Help Bring Down Insurance Rates?

  1. #41
    mvivion's Avatar
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    High insurance rates are common for the latest high priced “Shiny machine”, especially if it sports a tailwheel. Unfortunately, some new owners get either a “quickie” check out, or none at all. Those often end up in a ball, and the rest of the owners of the type pay more to cover the losses.

    Alaska is a special case, partially because much of AK is public lands, and, while aircraft operations are legal, if you break it out there, it must be removed, and that can get expensive due to distances and helicopter costs. A gentleman in the Mat Valley who recently was killed made a good living for years with a restricted category Huey, in large part retrieving bent planes.

    I carried liability only on my Cessna 170 when it went to floats in Fairbanks. My intent was to Do float ratings in it. With a ~ $50K hull value, hull insurance would have been well over $6K. This was no student solo, and me as instructor with several thousand hours seaplane time. Why? High risk.

    A nosewheel airplane is almost assuredly going to fall into a different insurance category as compared to a nearly identical tailwheel version. The nosewheel mostly eliminates those pesky “loss of control on ground” accidents that tailwheel types feature prominently in accident statistics.

    Maule has built both nosewheel and tailwheel versions that are otherwise identical of some of their models for quite a few years. Tailwheel Maules are well known to be costly to insure, so a comparison between gear configurations there may be instructive.

    But I’ll bet the nosewheel versions are going to be cheaper to insure.

    MTV
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  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by SchulerJL View Post
    If you don't mind me asking - was that with Star Insurance? Low Tailwheel time?
    Star and Falcon were the only companies I could get a quote from at all and the price was near identical. I had about 100 tailwheel on the initial quote and 200 when it came down to 12k, no accidents etc. Also took 17 hours worth of tac aero type specific training which they did not care about at all.

    Not the end of the world, as long as the .gov or terms of your loan (if you get one) don't require insurance, one is always free to not purchase the product.
    Last edited by Narwhal; 11-09-2022 at 11:26 AM.
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  3. #43
    SchulerJL's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply, I'm headed down to Texas - Tac Aero in December. Hopefully it's beneficial, I have very little constant Speed prop experience, 800 hrs PA-18, have not gotten ins quotes yet, but I'm mentally prepared now. Final build week should be beginning march or so.

  4. #44
    Grand Pooh Bah soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    350k is a LOT of hull coverage and a LOT of airplane. That will never be cheap to insure. It's not just loss rates that are up - the plane valuations are through the roof. Time was you could build a carbon cub for 200k and insure it that way, and a brand new freshly overhauled certified supercub with 0 time engine could be had all day for $150k. Seems those days are gone. Welcome to the new era.

  5. #45
    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SchulerJL View Post
    Thanks for the reply, I'm headed down to Texas - Tac Aero in December. Hopefully it's beneficial, I have very little constant Speed prop experience, 800 hrs PA-18, have not gotten ins quotes yet, but I'm mentally prepared now. Final build week should be beginning march or so.
    When I was trying to get insurance locked in for phase 1 flying of my FX-3 I had submitted all the tail wheel types I had flown but declared that I only had 1 hour in the FX-3. I was asked if I knew an instructor with PA-18 time. I sad "Yes, me". For some reason that seemed to float their boat and I was accepted with 1 hour FX-3 time on the assurance I would have a ground checkout by a CFI or factory pilot before I first flew mine. I actually got another hour in the factory demonstrator on skiis which I enjoyed and which kept the insurance happy.

    I did have a huge deductable until phase 1 one complete so ask about that before you accept a quote.

    Talk to Teri Banstitre at North West Insurance if you have a problem finding coverage, With your PA-18 time it should be easy enough but not cheap.

  6. #46
    pittsdriver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soyAnarchisto View Post
    350k is a LOT of hull coverage and a LOT of airplane. That will never be cheap to insure. It's not just loss rates that are up - the plane valuations are through the roof. Time was you could build a carbon cub for 200k and insure it that way, and a brand new freshly overhauled certified supercub with 0 time engine could be had all day for $150k. Seems those days are gone. Welcome to the new era.
    Actually the liability part of insurance coverage hasn't gone up much over the years. Just like you said it's the hull valuations that have gone through the roof. Add to it that the number of low time tailwheel pilots wrecking these expensive toys.
    Vans RV7 finished 2008
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  7. #47

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    Maintenance is problematic. One weak cylinder on one single differential test and they all come off. Cub annuals routinely breaking ten grand. Bungees replaced at two year intervals. Covering a single Cub wing can cross ten grand. Bend a spar and almost double that.

    Ordinary folk must learn to do a lot of this themselves - my buddies are complaining about a thousand dollar oil change. There is a simple solution to that one.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by SchulerJL View Post
    Thanks for the reply, I'm headed down to Texas - Tac Aero in December. Hopefully it's beneficial, I have very little constant Speed prop experience, 800 hrs PA-18, have not gotten ins quotes yet, but I'm mentally prepared now. Final build week should be beginning march or so.
    Time in type will eventually help. They seemed not to count PA-18 time or other tailwheel time in any meaningful way for me. Alaska is also a big part of the problem for me.

    It was explained to me that insurance premiums usually start at about 2% of hull value. Tailwheel? Add another 1%. Experimental? Another 1%. You are based in Alaska? Have another 1%. And the biggie: no time in type? Add about 5% on a sliding scale until you get about 200 hours in type. You might be able to persuade some insurers that PA18 time counts for a CC, no such luck for me!

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Maintenance is problematic. One weak cylinder on one single differential test and they all come off. Cub annuals routinely breaking ten grand. Bungees replaced at two year intervals. Covering a single Cub wing can cross ten grand. Bend a spar and almost double that.

    Ordinary folk must learn to do a lot of this themselves - my buddies are complaining about a thousand dollar oil change. There is a simple solution to that one.
    Not the norm in my world Bob. Reading your post sounds like the sky is falling.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
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  10. #50
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    In the early 1950s piper posted an ad for the new tri-pacer which said “we take the skill out of flying”. That just about says it all. I used to have pilots apply for Banner tow jobs and when I asked about their tail wheel endorsement they’d say “I don’t have one but that’s no problem I can get it“. I didn’t ask how much experience they had landing in quartering tail winds on paved runways in conventional gear. I think that just about says it all too.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Maintenance is problematic. One weak cylinder on one single differential test and they all come off. ......
    Who's making those decisions?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  12. #52

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    When the insurer is paying folks seem not to care. When it is routine maintenance the lawyers might be driving the shop recommendations. Often the owners wouldn't know a piston from a spark plug, and just say "fix it." Folks out in the country, like Steve above, are often in love with aviation and do what they do for enjoyment, while making a living.

    But I am surrounded by shops that have hangqr rent and insurance payments well over a hundred grand a year - how many annuals does it take to cover that?

  13. #53
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    If you have a moron flying it!!

    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    A certain Airbus at JFK comes to mind!
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    If you have a moron flying it!!
    My recollection of the accident investigation may be different from yours. My recollection was there were a lot of pilots who found out that Va didn't mean quite what they thought it meant and that the rudder limiter didn't do quite what they thought it did.
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  15. #55
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I also recall that in spite of the overcontrolling in the 747's wake turbulence, there had been a repair to the fiberglass spar in the fin, at the factory, prior to the original delivery which failed.
    N1PA

  16. #56
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    Continuing on with this insurance discussion, and Steve - maybe move this to a new thread, but I have a question: What does Type mean? Seems to me my current plane PA18 L21B (Picture attached) is the same "type" of plane as a Carbon Cub FX3, it may not be the same make and model but it certainly is the same "Type " of airplane, so when the insurance company asks time in type, what do I say? Any input on this? help me out

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  17. #57

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    Don't ask us. Your insurance underwriter is looking for ways to not "pay out." One reason is if you were not truthful on your application. If they say "PA-18 is the same as Carbon Cub" get it in writing, or at least scribble down the date/time and the name of the agent on your policy.

    Ask them.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SchulerJL View Post
    Continuing on with this insurance discussion, and Steve - maybe move this to a new thread, but I have a question: What does Type mean? Seems to me my current plane PA18 L21B (Picture attached) is the same "type" of plane as a Carbon Cub FX3, it may not be the same make and model but it certainly is the same "Type " of airplane, so when the insurance company asks time in type, what do I say? Any input on this? help me out
    What insurance carrier asks for "time on type"? Mine asks for time Make and Model. Only time in a CubCrafters FX-3 qualifies for make and model on my insurance. Even an EX-3 does not qualify. A CCK-2000 is not a CCX-2000.

    On my initial application I listed all the tailwheel types in which I had logged time. In my opinion the Husky was the most similar to the FX-3 as it has a CS prop but I don't think it counted for anything except total time tailwheel.

  19. #59
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Spoke to a gent who a new NX Cub from CC. He's not a youngster. The full coverage insurance quote took my breath away. Doesn't seem like nose gear is making much difference.....more driven by stated value and age of participant.

    MTV
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