So I’m trying to decide which one to put hard earned money toward. I know of the Cub crafters, Altee, willow mountain. I’m looking for pluses and minuses of each. The fabric is coming of and welding/fabrication is scheduled for November so now is the time to shop STC’s. Also like thoughts on baggage door to coincide with said extended baggage. Thanks
Ron Sullivan's STC could join your list.
Whatever you decide I would recommend installing the largest access door(s) you can.
"Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"
Cavanaugh door stc with javron frame. Willow mountain is definitely the most room if you don’t mind a little welding.
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It’s all about CG. I’d consider a pod.
Last edited by stewartb; 10-04-2022 at 10:10 PM.
I have never heard anyone complain that the baggage door was too big. I think the Airframes one is the biggest.
DENNY
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agree about the cg keep it in the middle. with extended baggage you will end up stuffing gear further back than you want. get a pod
I wouldn’t just consider a pod- I’d get one. And the biggest baggage I could get. It’s not all about cg; cubic feet matters when you’re stuffing. All depends how you plan to use it, I guess. The last couple I built routinely use the entire upper and lower baggage, full pod, and maybe a few things on the rear pax lap...
I like the idea of the willow run but relocating the control cables to within the baggage area (or so I’ve heard) concerns me due to cargo shifting. The idea of stowage of large cooler is very enticing. This javron frame? Is it any different then that spelled out by the cavanaugh door stc? Cavanaugh is the leading contender for a door due to dog stowage/entry as the number one priority.Originally Posted by ak49flyer
My dad's cub has the willow mountain and fwiw neither of us have ever had any issues with the cables being inside the baggage. I think Atlee/Cub crafters pair with the baggage door better since you can minimize or eliminate the lip from baggage floor to the bottom of the door so you don't have to lift stuff in and out. I would assume that they are heaver than willow mountain though.
Doesn’t the willow change the shape of the belly making it harder to fit a pod later? Weld some pod tabs on incase you put one on later. Firman/ Alaska bush pods is the biggest and the door opens further than airglas.
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This is the Atlee weld in extended baggage with the Butch Cavanaugh Performance Airmotive baggage door. Jay Javeron has the parts for the door. Might as well turn the upper door to the side and relocate the battery as well. The upper baggage is good for the light stuff. As mentioned above, it’s about space as much as CG. Don’t worry about a forward CG, you can add a small amount of ballast to the tail or baggage as needed. Build it classy but utilitarian for two fat guys and all their gear.
Do the #2000 gross weight, 3rd seat option (180# in cargo area) and weld the tabs for the pod. Do it now and you’ll have no regrets.
Some notes:
The upper door turned to the side is a Minor Alteration.
The large baggage door frame is an STC but the aluminum door you fabricate is a Minor Alteration. (I know it’s weird)
Skip the seatbelt tabs for the 3rd seat STC. You don’t actually want anyone riding there except in an emergency. You just want the 180# baggage.
Last edited by KJC; 10-05-2022 at 07:24 AM.
PA-12 N418BS
That’s basically what I did except used carbon concepts upper door and frame. I put the 3rd seatbelt and it’s nice for holding my tool box or cooler down. Quick and easy to tie them down.This is the Atlee weld in extended baggage with the Butch Cavanaugh Performance Airmotive baggage door. Jay Javeron has the parts for the door. Might as well turn the upper door to the side and relocate the battery as well. The upper baggage is good for the light stuff. As mentioned above, it’s about space as much as CG. Don’t worry about a forward CG, you can add a small amount of ballast to the tail or baggage as needed. Build it classy but utilitarian for two fat guys and all their gear.
Do the #2000 gross weight, 3rd seat option (180# in cargo area) and weld the tabs for the pod. Do it now and you’ll have no regrets.
Some notes:
The upper door turned to the side is a Minor Alteration.
The large baggage door frame is an STC but the aluminum door you fabricate is a Minor Alteration. (I know it’s weird)
Skip the seatbelt tabs for the 3rd seat STC. You don’t actually want anyone riding there except in an emergency. You just want the 180# baggage.
I put Randy’s thin carbon for the floor of the upper. Works great for sleeping bags and pillows and the wife’s purse. I welded a bunch of tabs same as how piper used to hold the interior in with tinnermans
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Cavanaugh door stc is for the structural mods only- door and frame are up to you, which is really cool; you have options. I like the javron frame for a few reasons- it’s huge, has a channel to hold the interior panels to keep them from snagging, and has a lip to hold an inset/flush door, so you only need one latch, instead of 5 fasteners or however many most have. Re:willow mountain rudder cables- I run them inside 1/4” pex tube- it’ll never get crushed. The belly shape change is very minor; I’ve never had any issues with a pod.
Javron frame
Okay he is my list as of now, what am I leaving out. I’m trying to keep it as much Atlee as possible for simplicity of ordering. But I’m still open for suggestions.
1)x brace- SA 02011AK
2)Battery relocation- SA02156AK
3)extended baggage (weld in)-SA02439AK
4)reverse dogleg-SA02439AK
5)removable crossbar-SA681AL
6)weld on shoulder harness brackets-SA02488AK
Ill talk to jay about the Cavanaugh door stc as I like the size and get the stc number. As far a the 2000 lb gross do I need it as this aircraft registration shows restricted and 2000 gross when bought new and sold and converted to crop duster? (Log book entry, Although it just appears to be regular PA 18 150) Also where do I find the 180# third seat stc for increased baggage? Is the pod weld tabs an stc or just a field modification? Thanks as always for any reply as this is all new to me and I’d like to get it right.
Very professional looking door!
Is the aircraft registration currently in the restricted class? Look up the limitations of flying the plane in that class. A Pa 18A should have a a gross weight of 2,070 when spraying even a 13 rig 125hp. I suspect you currently have a 1750 or lighter gross weight I would get the 2000 gross weight upgrade while your building because it does help with resale and legal useful load. You will need it with all the extended baggage. The fuselage part of the Gross weight upgrade is that little angle tube by the front seat that can be bolted in, tail spring, and heavy duty gear if I remember right. that is all pretty easy to change latter. It is the wings that require the most work. Some speculation on leaving or placing it in restricted class as a cargo hauler then you could have legally have the 2,070 if you called passengers crew, but that is another rabbit hole.
DENNY
Unless you're operating the plane in the Restricted Category as a sprayer, your gross weight is actually 1750 or lower, depending on the Normal Category GW for your model. Restricted category is not something you can legally operate in for routine recreational ops.
And, yes, if you're going to add a large extended baggage, then load it up (and if you're not going to load it up, why install it?), then you are going to definitely need the 2000 pound GW. Frankly, if I was rebuilding a Cub I'd add the 2000 pound kit BEFORE I added a whole bunch of other stuff.
MTV
MTV
Jay won’t probably have or know about the cavanaugh STC- get that from Atlee as well. SA02378AK, owned by Alaska Aircraft Products, LLC. Sold by Atlee or airframes, to name a couple... Also if you decide to go willow mountain, Atlee can sell that stc, and airframes makes a nice kit with at the little pieces precut that you need.
I have the Atlee Dodge big weld in extended baggage and the Butch Cavanaugh big door STC where you take out the diagonal tube and weld in a dogleg. I also have a pod. I put the soft, lif=ght stuff in the baggage and the heavy stuff as far forward in the pod.
I brought SJ from Arkansas to Graham on Friday morning and got a compliment on my back seat comfort. I installed the STC from Dakota Cub that moves the seat aft.
I put way to many SouthCo fasteners in the door. Half as many would work fine the way I constructed the door.
More pictures in this photo album.
Steve Pierce
Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
Will Rogers
Full size Wiggy sleeping bag slides through the door with no problem.
Steve Pierce
Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
Will Rogers
Yes to both the Atlee extended baggage and the large cargo door. It’s about the most room and accessibility you can get. Atlee’s extended baggage also makes a nice flat floor from the bottom of the seat all the way back. I used a couple of Atlee tie downs and the D rings the came with the baggage kit for for securing stuff to the floor.
Moving the seat back rearward is also a good idea. In my case I wanted a lightweight fold down back with no frame or springs. It is hinged at the bottom and moved aft a couple of inches. Folds down over the rear stick cover and tool box lid (seat bottom). As you can see from the pictures, the seat back isn’t quite as was as it potentially could be. You don’t need it super wide like a PA-12 to be comfortable and the side openings allow longer stuff to be loaded with a rear passenger.
PA-12 N418BS
[QUOTE=Steve Pierce;834259]I have the Atlee Dodge big weld in extended baggage and the Butch Cavanaugh big door STC where you take out the diagonal tube and weld in a dogleg. I also have a pod. I put the soft, lif=ght stuff in the baggage and the heavy stuff as far forward in the pod.
Steve thank you for that, Jay said he would try to work me in next month for all the welding and STC’s as there is no turning back now. I’m glad for everyone’s experience as I’d like to get it somewhat right for my first time as there is no turning back now.
My Cub had the small Dodge extended baggage that just slides in when I bought it, I left it in when I rebuilt the plane. The smaller one limits the temptation to overload the aft baggage, easy to do with the big one. The only real limitation is I can't sleep in the back.
willow mountain baggage + firmin pod
willow mountain is lighter, has a flat floor, rudder cables in the baggage are a non-issue and more headroom for third person.
the atlee dodge extended baggage is a relic of the past.
Just the pod keep it light its a cub. If you need more build a 4 place or get a Maule.
My Buddy just bought one from AK with all the mods - its a heavy turd. Keeping them light is about the hardest thing to do and every mod ads weight == back there.
If you need a cruiser with more space there are other planes that are better for that mission, if you need a cub make sure you don't build a fat one.
Not even the P stol flaps can make up for the extra weight of all the rest of the mods.
Interesting to get the different perspectives- I can’t imagine building one without the Atlee full width baggage at a minimum. Last willow mountain one I built weighed 1204 on 6” gear, 35’s, pod, sq. wings, big tw, electrical, upper baggage , etc. Flies awesome, and routinely goes places a maule wouldn’t dream. Also routinely goes into those places with all those baggage areas full, and shuttles out to a larger lake. So you can take 2 guys and the kitchen sink, unload it, use it like a cub, then load it up to come home. All in what you want to do with the plane I guess...
When I built my -12 a friend asked why I needed it. I said I wanted to land it on floats in front of my cabin. He said if I carried the same load? My Cessna could do that. He was right, too.
Private operators can go experimental. Move the upper longeron to the top. There’s more useful cargo space than most guys will ever need. To that point, most guys aren’t building Cubs to haul stuff.
It is all about the mission. But you have already decided you want need some more good storage so do it right. Upper baggage for extra gloves, hat, jacket, lunch, ect. Tabs for the belly pod are nice to have, I use my 3 rd seat tabs for tie downs when hauling dogs and other stuff. My fat 1200 lb cub can haul out moose camp when the 180 fails to show and still win at Valdez. Proper rigging and knowing how to load/fly your plane makes a 1200 lb cub a dream to fly heavy or light. Get the big baggage door like Steve has, if you fly for 3-7 day trips with two people or do a lot of camping it makes life easy, Wing covers, cowling cover, heater, snow shoes take up a lot of space when you are winter flying.
DENNY
But have you flown a -1100lb cub that someone who knows how to rig it? They are a dream.
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You sure momma didn’t kick you out Denny? That looks like all your possessions except for the dog
This was a old man moose camp we ran a couple of groups through. Poles for the wall tent are sticking out the back of the belly pod with chain saw, tarps, shovel. Wall tent, Cots, wood stove, chairs, ect are in back. Look at the size of the folded mattress in the window (dam Cessna drivers). The right wing has gun boot and large gun box on it. Without the extended baggage it would have been another 4 hour trip to finish getting camp out (if the bears did not get to it).You sure momma didn’t kick you out Denny? That looks like all your possessions except for the dog
DENNY
[QUOTE=RaisedByWolves;834308]But have you flown a -1100lb cub that someone who knows how to rig it? They are a dream.
I did fly Gabes J3. Flys nice but it would take a few trips to get moose camp out. I think the lightest 160hp cub I have flown is around 1150 (not a lot of them pretty boy planes up here
Just for my benefit, what was the ‘old man’ part again?? Sounds pretty good no matter your age - me thinks!!
Had a Maule for years, M5-235, great plane, but not near as much fun as this is!
In the guiding world, hauling two passengers in the Cub was a everyday event. Saving hundreds of extra trips, and LOTS of Av Gas. You will know if your bottom baggage is big enough; when you can haul your wheel skis in there.
I would think rebuilding a certified Cub without one of the full size extended baggage options and and a big baggage door would hurt its resale a lot.
It doesn't have to be heavy. Headliner can be left out, so can the top baggage.
This is a loading I have used a lot
140 lbs in 3rd seat
80 lbs in the pod
30 in extended baggage
On 8.50s the Cub would haul more than half of the Turbo 206 payload flying the same 160 nm round trip.
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The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Psalms 19:1
Do not pop rivet your extended baggage sides/back in place when you build. Use net plates and the top tab on the rear panel screws in the bottom like Bill Rust mentioned. If you ever have to rerun you trim indicator cable it makes the job easy. DENNY
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