Should I install ADSB Out on my PA-18? (2022)

CubCruiser said:

Just to be clear, "D" is not rule airspace. There was a guy in our pilot group that convinced a fair number of folks that they had to have ADS-B by the mandate to continue flying in and out of the Class Delta. Daryl

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Guess I misspoke re class D.
My home airport is about 15 miles away from the SEA mode C veil.
So going without ADSB isn't practical.

FWIW here's AOPA's rundown of where ADS-B out is required, from

Where is ADS-B Out Required? - AOPA

The FAA requires ADS-B Out capability in the continental United States, in the ADS-B rule airspace designated by FAR 91.225:

• Class A, B, and C airspace;
• Class E airspace at or above 10,000 feet msl, excluding airspace at and below 2,500 feet agl;
• Within 30 nautical miles of a Class B primary airport (the Mode C veil);
• Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of Class B or Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet;
• Class E airspace over the Gulf of Mexico, at and above 3,000 feet msl, within 12 nm of the U.S. coast.

That’s not how it works. That’s a myth spun by guys who’ve not used it. Wait til you have a fast plane closing on you from behind. Or climbing fast toward you at that 500’ while you think you’re the only plane out there. The little symbol on my screen tells me their position, heading, altitude, etc in literally a glance. I can climb, change course, wag my wings, talk on the radio, etc as I see fit. Pretty darn handy in my area, where “real” Cub drivers live among not only LOTS of other Cubs, but Cessnas and other faster machines. See and be seen.

Cardiff Kook said:

Op here- I get it but it’s the other guy I worry about as well. The one looking at his screen and not out his window. “No planes on screen, must be no traffic.”

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Those guys never looked out their windows even prior to ADSB.

I have had several near misses. Most were with power planes than nearly ran me down while I was thermalling in a glider. I have used PCAS, FLARM, and ADS-B In and Out. None of these reduced my outside visual scan and all of them contributed to my awareness of other traffic.

There is no doubt in my mind that a well implemented ADS-B In system with aural alerting increases safety and, if used properly, is far superior to unaided visual scan.

Does anyone use audio notifications from an iPad or iPhone? My G3X does it for me. No audio from the iPad diminishes its usefulness for traffic. I never bluetoothed the iPad to my headset for traffic notifications but I probably should.

stewartb said:

Does anyone use audio notifications from an iPad or iPhone? My G3X does it for me. No audio from the iPad diminishes its usefulness for traffic. I never bluetoothed the iPad to my headset for traffic notifications but I probably should.

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My ipad alerts me via bluetooth to bose a20

For the folks concerned about ADSB and Big Brother, this article in today’s ADN suggests your local police force might have already compiled detailed data about you by using your cell phone. In my mind, the problem of known governmental tracking of cell phones is an infinitely bigger problem than potential ADSB tracking, and ADSB’s ability to warn of impending traffic conflicts far, far outweighs the cons of potential tracking.

Other thoughts on ADSB. Someone commented that ADSB isn’t useful if it’s not used by everyone. That’s simply not the case. You don’t have to know where every single plane is in order to receive the traffic avoidance benefits of ADSB. You can plan to avoid the planes it’s displaying, and that’s a huge benefit. And since it’s showing you where it knows there are planes (and you will avoid those places) then you can concentrate your scan on places where it isn’t showing planes. So it can help make your scan more effective if you choose to use the information it’s presenting you.

Flying in and out of Dillingham I’ve learned that some of the planes based there don’t have ADSB. I’ll listen on the CTAF and use the ADSB display to help me figure out who’s where (remember, a lot of them are giving position reports of landmarks that I don’t know), and then I only have to query a few other guys to get a complete picture of the traffic.

For example, say there are five planes going into or out of DLG, and three of them have ADSB. In a few moments I can determine if I’ll need to maneuver to avoid any of the ADSB guys. No radio calls required. That leaves two other planes to deal with. That guy reporting that he’s over Wackadoodle Falls, which I’ve never heard of: I give him a call, tell him I don’t know where Wackadoodle Falls is and ask for bearing and distance to the airport. Same for the guy who’s flying over Cemetery Ridge (another place I’m unfamiliar with). If all the planes had ADSB I wouldn’t need to make any radio calls, which would be great. But it’s not a perfect world, and I can call the other two guys to get a complete picture of the current situation.

Now move the setting to Lebanon, TN, the uncontrolled airport where I used to be based. There are three very busy flight schools in the area and many GA pilots from six airports in the area. There are also three air ambulance companies (typically flying 500’ - 1000’ AGL) and loads of corporate jets, some being flown by pilots who only do instrument approaches and some by pilots who think it’s nifty to join the pattern at 150 KIAS and mix it up with the 172s doing touch and goes. On any given day you’ve got rusty GA pilots who don’t know the standard reporting points, get South mixed up with North, are on the wrong CTAF, etc. So if they’re using the radio, they’re giving bad information. You’ve got student pilots on solo flights who aren’t sure if they’re coming up on Gallatin or Lebanon or Smyrna or Murphreesboro, and they’re tying up the radio, too. Factor in the dickhead who’s chatting with his buddy on the CTAF. In short, the CTAF is so busy it’s hard to get a word in edgewise. And since we’re in the South the visibility is a tiny fraction of what folks west of the Mississippi experience - it’s probably less than 10 miles in haze. So even if every plane is running the highest output pulse lights and your vision is perfect and your windscreen is spotless, it’s still hard to spot traffic. If nobody had ADSB it would be a real crapshoot trying to quickly figure out where everybody is and where the threats are coming from. If half of the planes have ADSB your job is much, much easier. And if 80% of them have ADSB your risk is lower still.

The contention that ADSB is a benefit only if all planes have it is just plain wrong.

When i say “big brother fear” i am am more talking I do something someone thinks I shouldnt have, rightly or wrongly, and they go back and pull every issue i ever did wrong to demonstrate my “recklessness.”

Im thinking of either the FAA, an insurance company, or some personal injury attorney- my umbrella policy doesnt cover aviation incidents.

I have never had a moving car violation, but i am certain that if my car recorded everything i did it would not be hard for someone to selectively pull info to paint me as a very reckless driver even though I am not.

I am also a nice, respectful person- but if i had a microphone on me constantly recording every word…

Now- does the decrease risk of a midair justify that… maybe.

OP again- to be clear I have adsb in through stratus/foreflight. My question is on getting adsb out.

If you think ADS-B can be used against you you should offset that by ADS-B being useful to defend you. That’s one good thing about open source ADS-B tracking. The government does not have an exclusive on that data. Besides, your iPad is a flight recorder. My G3X is a flight recorder. If you want to dispute something you have other data options.

Cardiff Kook said:

OP again- to be clear I have adsb in through stratus/foreflight. My question is on getting adsb out.

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Read the fourth paragraph of post 38 and ask yourself if you were flying near Lebanon and you had ADSB out, would you be helping or hurting traffic awareness for ADSB-in equipped planes.

The biggest problem with ADS-B is the provision that if installed, it must be on. That doesn’t make sense, it never has made sense, and it’s the biggest reason more planes aren’t using the equipment in areas where it could improve safety for everyone. Fixing that regulation should be the next big project for AOPA and EAA.

Do you want to be seen on the fish finder, or not? If you thought it was valuable enough to do adsb-in, why would you not want to show up on other peoples screens?

I know this is not a popular concept, but we should have all been required to do adsb-out - even the no-electric and transponder exempt types. There, I said it. I think pilots are capable of multi-tasking and utilizing SI improvements along with looking outside. And even if they aren't/can't, then I am willing to spend 2k to show up as a blip and hope they do some pilot poop and not hit me.

Cardiff Kook said:

OP again- to be clear I have adsb in through stratus/foreflight. My question is on getting adsb out.

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If we should be required to have adsb out, why not be required to give position reports? It’s still perfectly legal to go nordo at many airports, and I don’t hear calls to change that reg, but then most voluntarily comply. It’s interesting to me that adsb/midairs are the current hot topic; poor pilot training/decision making kills far more people every year. Could it be that adsb is much easier to quantify and mandate, so it’s the bandwagon to jump on...?

This is a good exchange of ideas and perspectives. So I'll share what I don't like and do like about ADSB (I have both out and in).

Don't likes: Surveillance that I didn't request. Not s'posed to turn it off. The Skybeacon strobe interferes in my radio input sometimes.

Do likes: Surveillance that I did request (e.g. flight following). Find buddies for interception etc. Hint for where to look for traffic - dunno how many times a potentially conflicting target shows up on the screen that I can't seem to acquire visually - but at least I know what direction they are (eyes are corrected to 20-20 with glasses). No issues for entering rule airspace if I want to, even though that's somewhat rare.

Overall, I don't have any inclination to un-install.

Flying in Alaska is a little different and everybody tries to work together and cover each other. We use local points almost every and it works great because most bush areas don’t have any ATC coverage. If your going to work in a area often you should first find where they are by simply take a few mins and a map and go find a 135 guy and just ask him/ her to show you them . Never met any pilot that would help you. If your work the area as the old saying goes “get with the program” and make it safer for everyone. If your flying a fast mover just fly at 5-6000’ most of us get nose bleeds above 1500’. If your going to be working over in the Homer area next summer PM me I’ll be happy to meet up and show you around.

I flew in SE Ak for about 16 years, ending 32 years ago. It was totally different.

Edit: I guess that's not relevant. Sorry - -

What should be coming is augmented reality vision

We are doing things like that with equipment now. Roll along a area late in the summer when you can take high resolution video with GPS coordinates of transformers, vaults and other obstacles that get buried under snow. then in the snow clearing equipment we augment the images so plow operators can "see" where those items are under feet of snow and hopefully not hit them. No goggles needed it's just all displayed with distances to the obstructions so plow wings etc can be retracted. Next step will be to fully automate ops like that. But augmented vision with ADSB data would be great on a windscreen.......

If you decide you do want to participate in ADS-B out and maintain some amount of privacy, your best option is UAT-978 anonymous mode. Pair a mode C transponder with a Garmin GDL-82 or uAvionix tail/skyBeacon and you've got a decent solution.

If you drive a late model car, especially 2013 or newer, it does record a lot what you do.

Cardiff Kook said:

When i say “big brother fear” i am am more talking I do something someone thinks I shouldnt have, rightly or wrongly, and they go back and pull every issue i ever did wrong to demonstrate my “recklessness.”

Im thinking of either the FAA, an insurance company, or some personal injury attorney- my umbrella policy doesnt cover aviation incidents.

I have never had a moving car violation, but i am certain that if my car recorded everything i did it would not be hard for someone to selectively pull info to paint me as a very reckless driver even though I am not.

I am also a nice, respectful person- but if i had a microphone on me constantly recording every word…

Now- does the decrease risk of a midair justify that… maybe.

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5 miles to the east entering 45 for left downwind is pretty descriptive.


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fancypants said:

If you decide you do want to participate in ADS-B out and maintain some amount of privacy, your best option is UAT-978 anonymous mode. Pair a mode C transponder with a Garmin GDL-82 or uAvionix tail/skyBeacon and you've got a decent solution.

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Except it is anything but anonymous.

Speedo said:

..... I witnessed a midair at a Phoenix airport about 20 years ago. Two people in a J-3 died and two people in the other plane died. Uncontrolled dirt strip. And a friend died (along with three other people) in a midair near Russian Mission (uncontrolled gravel strip) about five years ago. He was flying a Caravan and the other plane was a Super Cub. Neither plane was equipped with ADSB. I contend that if all four of those planes had ADSB in/out neither collision would have occurred.

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I witnessed a near mid-air at my airport tuesday morning.
C150 flying the pattern doing touch-n-goes,
and a C185 amphib doing a straight-in.
If not for another pilot overhead the airport calling out a warning,
I'm sure there would have been a crash.



I talked to both pilots afterwards,
both claimed it was the other guy's fault--
"he never said anything on the radio".
FWIW they both had ADSB in and out.
So both having (and presumably using) the radio didn't help, neither did ADSB.
Bottom line, it's all about see and avoid.

The 185 driver is a pilot based here, so complacency was probably a factor.
The 150 guy was a student pilot, on his first solo trip away from his nearby home airport.
So inexperience was no doubt a factor.

A hammer won’t pound a nail if you don’t know how to use it, and can do considerable damage if you use it incorrectly. So it goes with most tools.

I’m not a fan of straight in finals at uncontrolled strips. But that’s a different topic.

Speedo said:

Other thoughts on ADSB. Someone commented that ADSB isn’t useful if it’s not used by everyone. That’s simply not the case. You don’t have to know where every single plane is in order to receive the traffic avoidance benefits of ADSB. You can plan to avoid the planes it’s displaying, and that’s a huge benefit. And since it’s showing you where it knows there are planes (and you will avoid those places) then you can concentrate your scan on places where it isn’t showing planes. So it can help make your scan more effective if you choose to use the information it’s presenting you.
(...)

The contention that ADSB is a benefit only if all planes have it is just plain wrong.

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Hey, that sounds just like vaccines where the unvaccinated are protected when majority is vaccinated.
The ones without ADSB-out should be well protected once sufficient number of other planes has ADSB-out.

My experience has been that pilots with ADSB-out tend not to communicate as much, presumably lulled to the idea that everyone else also has ADSB-out?
I also noticed the tendency for those with ADSB to visually search for planes that show up on their ADSB screen, and not for traffic that is not on the screen.

It's all about see and avoid, right? I've had a 5 very close calls over the years, VFR and IFR, (i.e. close enough to see rivets). Each of those incidents could have been avoided with ADSB and having ADSB since has enabled me to avoid other aircraft and plan approaches, etc. You have to see to avoid and ADSB allows you to "see" aircraft that are not visible from the front seat with your eyes only.

So yeah, maybe I'm not too worried that my flying habits will cause an issue with "big brother". I'm more concerned about the other yahoos out there. As with anything, you have to keep scanning and electronics don't solve everything (autopilot dependence?) but they sure add to our toolbox and increase situational awareness.
Cheers

Often we form opinions not based in facts but with our fears and emotions. Personally I think adsb has hyper inflated peoples midair fears because they laser focus on these screen targets constantly. The facts however paint a real different picture. For starters per the numbers midair collisions have increased dramatically since the introduction of adsb. 80%+ are pilots with very high hours and almost always a go fast plane overtaking a slower one initiating a collision. Almost always the initiating plane has adsb. Also the majority happen within a thousand feet of a uncontrolled airport. So take those facts and do what you want with them but old cocky selfish pilots in a hurry with little regard for other traffic represent the real midair problem.

I'd say fears and emotions bias more guys against it than for it. And in that most guys that speak out against it have zero time using it. The internet is funny that way.

stewartb said:

I'd say fears and emotions bias more guys against it than for it. And in that most guys that speak out against it have zero time using it. The internet is funny that way.

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