Should I install ADSB Out on my PA-18? (2022)

I live and fly primarily in Central Oregon. I haven't been around any class C/B with this plane.

I'm trying to figure out if benefits outweigh cons here- my guess is they do but figure I would ask

Pros- Traffic avoidance

Cons- Big brother


I follow all the rules, laws, safe flying, etc. I just want to avoid being surveilled without significant benefit.

I currently fly with a Stratus and foreflight so I have limited ADSB "in." I guess I don't get all the traffic unless someone is close with adsb out- is that how it works?

I take it ADSB has been demonstrated to dramatically decrease the chance of a midair? One fear I have is people have become so accustomed to ADSB that they would be shocked to see me if I wasn't on their screen- making it almost necessary today. I had a 182 overtake me and overfly me directly by 200 feet a few weeks ago. He never saw me until I told him he had just overflown me when he asked where I was.

Talk me into it or out of it. Pros. Cons.

Thanks.

If you have adsb in you get the traffic without being watched. I’ve flown cross country and haven’t found a need for adsb. If you’re not constantly flying in airspace it’s easy to do the wavier


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There is another thread on ADSB with lots of opinions. Actually, there are lots of threads on the subject!

https://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?61238-ADSB-removal&highlight=adsb

sj

Do you fly within radar coverage? Out in the boondocks? Where you operate should factor into the decision. In radar coverage mode C transponders are translated to ADS-B so you get a pretty complete traffic picture. Out in the sticks most guys don't use transponders so much of the flying traffic is invisible to ADS-B. I experience both. I have ADS-B "In" in both planes and "Out" in one. Personally, I'm more inclined to add "Out" to the plane that's lacking it than to remove it from the plane that has it.

stewartb said:

Do you fly within radar coverage? Out in the boondocks? Where you operate should factor into the decision. In radar coverage mode C transponders are translated to ADS-B so you get a pretty complete traffic picture. Out in the sticks most guys don't use transponders so much of the flying traffic is invisible to ADS-B. I experience both. I have ADS-B "In" in both planes and "Out" in one. Personally, I'm more inclined to add "Out" to the plane that's lacking it than to remove it from the plane that has it.

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I have mode c.

I fly in radar coverage.

If I am on radar coverage does that uplink to someones adsb in?

SJ said:

There is another thread on ADSB with lots of opinions. Actually, there are lots of threads on the subject!

https://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?61238-ADSB-removal&highlight=adsb

sj

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I read that thread prior to posting. Mostly about pulling out adsb (you can.)

I didnt see many other discussions but maybe quick search was not sufficient.

I personally wouldn't do it unless I lived and flew a lot under a mode c veil. Unless everybody is using it, it really isn't that useful.... unless you really want to be flying high up where tailwinds and jet streams (> 10,000 msl and > 2500 AGL) are helpful. Eventually we are going to need it to fly to Canada, and you need it today to fly to Mexico.

I have it and selfishly wish everyone had it in part because my choice of flying involves small groups 2-4 and often larger groups 4-10 planes participating in fly outs and mountain flying. It comforts me to have additional awareness for all of our safety. I have never been bothered by the big brother threat, I feel the benefits far out weight those concerns.

No.
Denny

Personal Opinion Ahead....

I say put it in there. Your recent encounter with that 182 shows the benefit. Remember that if you're involved in a midair, it doesn't matter whether he didn't see you or you didn't see him, everybody dies anyway. If either party sees the other disaster can be averted. Anything you can do to make yourself more visible to anyone you may be sharing the sky with is a positive - and may just be the one little thing that saves your life.

Yes maybe people are too dependent upon them these days, but that only makes it more practical. If nobody was using the system there would be no reason to be part of it. Since everyone is, it would seem foolish (my opinion only) not to participate. Yes you have "in" but without "out" you have to be the one to observe and avoid traffic. Add "out" and now other folks can see and avoid you. I'm sure you're incredibly aware, but we all miss things. I rather give someone the opportunity not to kill me than to expect that I will notice every potential conflict in time.

This is modern society. Everyone is filming everything. If you don't want to be surveilled, stay in your house and away from the windows.

Please note the preceding is opinion only and carries less weight than a hummingbird full of helium. It is worth every penny you paid for it.

Cardiff Kook said:

I have mode c.

I fly in radar coverage.

If I am on radar coverage does that uplink to someones adsb in?

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TIS-B (a component of ADS-B) translates Mode C airplanes within the radar coverage area to show them on ADS-B displays. You should see them with any In receiver.

I wouldn’t/won’t get it. Too many stories of law-abiding local guys getting harassed having to explain perfectly normal flying/maneuvering. One guy got accused of being a different plane due to some programming glitch, and apparently some of our other agencies are availing themselves of the data; know one guy who got a call from park service alleging bear harassment based on adsb info. Also people accused of turning it off due to coverage lapses... Not worth it for me- I’ll roll the dice and try to remember to look outside once in a while...

Cardiff Kook said:

I live and fly primarily in Central Oregon. I haven't been around any class C/B with this plane.

Thanks.

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There's your answer, right there. No. In the future, IF you need it, then install it at that time.

Web

wireweinie said:

There's your answer, right there. No. In the future, IF you need it, then install it at that time.

Web

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Wholeheartedly agree !!

One thing I like about ADS-B is on a low day when you can’t really tell how good the weather might be? Look at ADS-B Exchange to see who’s out there. On those days I’m glad those guys added it.

stewartb said:

TIS-B (a component of ADS-B) translates Mode C airplanes within the radar coverage area to show them on ADS-B displays. You should see them with any In receiver.

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I believe you also need ads-b out or be near another aircraft with ads-b out in order to get TIS-B transmitted to you.

From FAA (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/adsb/pilot):
[FONT=&quot]TIS-B information is available to aircraft that broadcast valid ADS-B Out and utilize ADS-B In on 978 MHz (UAT), 1090MHz (1090ES) or both. The aircraft must be within coverage of an ADS-B ground station and an FAA radar or multilateration system to receive the target information.[/FONT]

The area I live in is distant from any Charlie or Bravo airspace, and I rarely go to those in any case. BUT, traffic around here has gotten really busy, and traffic here is “diverse” with a lot of training aircraft mixing with airline, private jet, and noodles like me, roaming around the valley’s airspace.

I installed a wing mounted uAvionix SkyBeacon some time ago. That unit allows me to operate it in “anonymous mode”, which may or may not really be anonymous, but allows ATC to see my ID, while other receivers see a “target”. So, the jet folks and training aircraft can “see” me, but casual observers have to work at it a bit more to figure out who I am.

If it weren’t for all the traffic here, I would NOT have installed ADS-B. I fly with an iPad and Sentry, so I can see traffic as well, at least here in the valley, but I really don’t look at it much, I still look out the windows at our fantastic scenery most of the time. But there is merit to “announcing my presence” to others.

MTV

I wouldn't have installed adsb if I didn't live & fly around so much class B C & D aka " rule airspace".

I’m a proponent of ADSB in/out. I’ve spent the summer mostly flying between Anchorage and King Salmon, Dillingham, and Kulik Lake, with some charters to other parts of the state. Most of the float planes operating in the King Salmon area use ADSB in/out and I’ve found it really helpful in figuring out who is where. The float pilots are good at announcing their position, but often they’re naming landmarks or features I don’t know. The ADSB has been really helpful in figuring out who I need to coordinate with, especially as I’m often flying at speeds much higher than theirs. The ADSB info shows me a plane’s tail number, so I can get on the CTAF and let the pilot know I’ll be overtaking him and where to look for me. When the King Salmon tower is closed this is especially helpful.

The FIS-B weather that comes along with ADSB-in has been really helpful in visualizing the weather and avoiding heavy precipitation when VFR. It’s also handy for getting METARs and deducing which runway will be in use and the likely path of outbound planes. I like being able to check NOTAMs, too. Which side of the Togiak runway is closed? Pull up the NOTAM and there’s the answer.

I also like to be able to see a plane’s speed. Coming in to ANC I can easily do 210 KIAS up to a five mile final, but the heavies are typically at 180 or less by then. So I can look at the speed of the plane in front of me and adjust my speed accordingly and keep good spacing without Approach or Tower having to tell me to. The same concept applies to Super Cubs: let’s say you’re on downwind doing 65 KIAS and a Baron is planning to enter the pattern. If you both have ADSB he can adjust his speed or the width of his pattern, and you can monitor his proximity and maneuver if you don’t like how close he’s getting.

Finally, I witnessed a midair at a Phoenix airport about 20 years ago. Two people in a J-3 died and two people in the other plane died. Uncontrolled dirt strip. And a friend died (along with three other people) in a midair near Russian Mission (uncontrolled gravel strip) about five years ago. He was flying a Caravan and the other plane was a Super Cub. Neither plane was equipped with ADSB. I contend that if all four of those planes had ADSB in/out neither collision would have occurred.

Speedo said:

Neither plane was equipped with ADSB. I contend that if all four of those planes had ADSB in/out neither collision would have occurred.

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There is a huge range of capability for ADS-B In. Just having traffic depicted on a "tablet" may help with traffic awareness when workload is low. It takes a good aural warning system to significantly reduce the risk of mid-air collision when work load is higher.

My Garmin G3X provides "TRAFFIC" calls but I really wish Garmin would enhance it to have "ATAS" alerting capability.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC20-172B.pdf

"2-5. Alerts.
c. Each ATAS aural alert should be annunciated by a dedicated voice message consistent with the requirements in TSO-C195b. The voice message will be annunciated over a cockpit speaker and through a headset/helmet at a volume adequate for clear understanding at high cockpit noise levels, but not excessively loud at low noise levels. The evaluation of the message annunciated through a cockpit speaker includes the casewhere a flight crew member is wearing a headset covering the outboard ear, when appropriate. ATAS aural alerts provide bearing, range, relative altitude, and optionally, a vertical sense of the alerted traffic. Vertical sense of the alerted traffic can be of three types: climbing, descending, or level."

My plane will have it. I want every clue possible of other planes in the vicinity.

I’m typing this post on my tracking device that also makes phone calls. I laugh at people worried about big brother watching! Just assume you’re being watched/tracked already because you are being watched/tracked already

I’m not breaking any laws nor do I intend to in the future

Yes I’ve been contacted about flying low, it was a non-issue

Let’s be safe out there

Absolutely NOT

hotrod180 said:

I wouldn't have installed adsb if I didn't live & fly around so much class B C & D aka " rule airspace".

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Just to be clear, "D" is not rule airspace. There was a guy in our pilot group that convinced a fair number of folks that they had to have ADS-B by the mandate to continue flying in and out of the Class Delta.

Daryl

I have a Garmin 345 GTX transponder for ADS-B in and out in my Cub.

The Garmin in the Cub requires a panel light and an aural warning in the intercom. It triggers both based on distance and closure. Foreflight will announce traffic at a distance farther away than that distance required by the Garmin. Foreflight audio is ported via Bluetooth to the intercom.

For a Cub this is about as close to TCAS alert as possible without actual TCAS. ADSB situation awareness and the pilot become the “Resolution Advisory” portion.

I find one of the best features is the ID tag…..a quick look at N number app and you know what type of aircraft you are dealing with in traffic pattern. Easily done well outside the pattern.

To each’s own! I find the advantages, at cub speeds, far outweighs the cons.


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Had a cop that didn't like me write me a 100% fake ticket. Turns out traffic violations don't require burden of proof so they fined me on just the one officers word. The faa operates in much the same manner requiring no burden of proof and subject to biased personal opinions or feelings. Add to that the faa's ability to interpret regs however they see fit and things can end up a Salem witch hunt with you burning on the stake. For someone that's never been involved with interactions like that it might seem like conspiracy theory but this stuff happens all the time to regular folks trying to follow the rules.
So my vote is no and just spend a extra 20 minutes flying around controlled airspace if it's a option. If you're concerned with midairs just be super cautious on final because almost all of them happen there.

If I didn't live right next to B and the DC SFRA I would never install it.

Real cub pilots don't fly much above 500'........no conflicting traffic. Even fly low patterns, short base & final, with eyes open.
ADS-B nationwide will come soon enough.

cubdrvr said:

Real cub pilots don't fly much above 500'........no conflicting traffic. Even fly low patterns, short base & final, with eyes open.
ADS-B nationwide will come soon enough.

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Until that AT802 fills up your windscreen;-)

I realize the safety factor that ads-b brings to the table, but i think it's a bit like a ballistic parachute in a cirrus, sort of a crutch for a pilot to lean on. I know this isn't the case for all that use it, but looking at a screen instead of out your windows is a bad habit to get into.

1934A said:

I realize the safety factor that ads-b brings to the table, but i think it's a bit like a ballistic parachute in a cirrus, sort of a crutch for a pilot to lean on. I know this isn't the case for all that use it, but looking at a screen instead of out your windows is a bad habit to get into.

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Op here- I get it but it’s the other guy I worry about as well. The one looking at his screen and not out his window. “No planes on screen, must be no traffic.”