Should I install ADSB Out on my PA-18? (2022)

180_jeff said:

Except it is anything but anonymous.

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I've heard this before, but I can't find any real evidence that it's true. Outside of specific limited circumstances, the UAT-978 transceiver operating in anonymous mode does not emit information that can be directly related to its true ICAO code. There are avenues for spatial and temporal analysis that might indirectly yield a possible set of ICAO codes, but I don't believe that's a practical concern, and I don't think that's what anyone's thinking about when they condemn anonymous mode as not anonymous.

If you must operate with ADS-B out, there are meaningful enhancements to personal privacy by equipping with UAT-978 and using anonymous mode. 1090ES broadcasts your identity everywhere, all the time. UAT-978 anonymous mode does not.

Wasn't it on this forum where we had a yuge thread on why it isn't anonymous? Probably or maybe is was one of the many on BCP or BT as well. There was a webinar a couple of years ago with the FAA ADBS office and Bendix King and they explained how it was done. Anyway, you are wrong fancypants.

Just a note: 978 mhz UAT signals are NOT recognized outside of US airspace. Only 1090 mhz signals are. Keep that in mind if you travel.

Web

180_jeff said:

Wasn't it on this forum where we had a yuge thread on why it isn't anonymous? Probably or maybe is was one of the many on BCP or BT as well. There was a webinar a couple of years ago with the FAA ADBS office and Bendix King and they explained how it was done. Anyway, you are wrong fancypants.

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Actually, I think the primary problem is some tin foil hats are getting a wee bit too tight.

MTV

Flightaware.com keeps track of where and when I flew an ADSB plane so I can keep my log books more accurate if I am delayed in my entries.

I have in/out on two of my airplanes and I find it very helpful, especially around uncontrolled airports. Half the guys who make position reports are wrong about where they claim to be. It’s always been that way, but now I can actually locate their true position.

I have no radio at all in my biplane. I get grief about that from some other pilots who are mad that I am not making position reports, even though I am especially careful to use standard and conservative pattern procedures. To which I suggest that they should be seeing and avoiding primarily.

I do think that the big brother concerns are overblown. The devices in my pocket/auto/home are more dangerous than ADSB in my opinion.

mvivion said:

Actually, I think the primary problem is some tin foil hats are getting a wee bit too tight.

MTV

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We see way too much of this in our society now-a-days: can't come up with a few sentences arguing a point to the contrary or want to shut up the other viewpoint, just call that person an extremist, conspiracy theorist or tinfoil hat wearer.

It is unfortunate that ADSB has been used for enforcement. That has damaged a life saving technology. Your hat doesn't need to be too tight to know that law enforcement will take advantage of every technology there is and yes the feds are notorious for that in all kinds of agencies. There is a genuine reason to be skeptical that it won't be used against you and that doesn't mean you have to be running drugs from Columbia. Cut across the corner of airspace while keeping those eyeballs outside? Gotcha! And yes enforcement is that ridiculous. It happens frequently all over the federal government of the good ol' Land of the Free.

It is also ridiculous to think you can just trust the old eyeballs to see everything. Sit in your plane and notice you can't see above, behind, underneath, behind the frame of the windshield, the compass, the iPad, the glare of the sun etc... Even head on closes extremely quickly and doesn't give apparent movement. You are not a fighter ace and you are not looking out the bubble of a P-51. Generally the "Big Sky" theory works until it doesn't. It is unfortunate for negative uses to make people hesitant to install a safety advancement. Understandable but unfortunate. Also screwing up implementation of much of anything is a government specialty as well. History is clear on all of that with aviation being just one example.

I keep hearing this talk about how magical and life saving adsb is yet the facts clearly show a increase in collisions? I would say that if it eases your fears more power to you but like I already said I think it makes most people more nervous. Of course how can you not be nervous with 100million cubic feet of airtraffic compressed on a six inch screen in your face.It's often justified as a midair avoidance instead of it's actual use of organizing controlled traffic. Again my point is that the midair problem is not being addressed with adsb, in fact it might be making things worse giving people a false sense of safety.

Of course it's not our fault that our community thinks this way,the faa has been telling us how safe and necessary adsb is for a decade. Any intelligent person could have looked at statistics and clearly seen that transponders are not the problem. My advice to anyone with adsb? If a fast plane is running you down in the pattern don't trust a dot on your screen and move to safety.

ADSB out - Sooner or later, it's going to be necessary to get in to a class C. Maintenance, to pick up a friend who flew in from Hawaii, whatever.

You can do it without ADSB out, but you will have to fill a form and get approval with the FAA at least 2 hours in advance and hope that they approve of your flimsy excuse. I had a partial electrical failure in Valentine, Nebraska ("Honeymoon Capital of the midwest!") coming back from Ennis, MT in my "other" plane. I lost my NavCom #1, autopilot and ADSB. I had to spend an hour navigating the FAA website and filling out a stupid form on a slow FBO computer before my last leg into the class C in Knoxville. My first request to get permission was denied for no apparent reason. I started all over, changed the wording of my reason for asking permission a little and then it was approved. Capricious bureaucratic BS at its worst. If you go into a class C without permission, you WILL automatically be in trouble with the big dogs. I notified the Knoxville approach guy before entering the C airspace that I had no ADSB and that I had the FAA permission, but he seemed like he could personally care less.

ADSB in - get it, even if it's a Stratos and a mini iPad. Even if only half of the planes are using ADSB out, it's nice to be able to check to see if someone might be coming in to the same rural airport or flying the other way up the same river you are flying over and gawking at. The weather feature is also a major advantage. I would bet that most of the people reading this already have Foreflight or Garmin Pilot anyway.

I don't like big brother either and the government is predictably abusing its power with the ADSB data. No surprise. It's gonna get worse, too. Under our constitution, we should be protected from self incrimination. But I have ADSB out as much for the benefit of my fellow pilots as for my benefit. Harsh words from just another random guy on the internet with a different perspective , but if you are using ADSB in for traffic but not putting out the data yourself, you are, in a way, taking selfish advantage of your fellow aviators. And that's not cool.

So last year I was flying my non ADS-B Cessna back on the Knik. I do have a mode C transponder and another plane mentioned saw me on his ADS-B. So was my transponder talking to his plane or to a local ADS-B tower that was relaying the info to his plane? My understanding is ADS-B will daisy change past normal coverage area if you line up enough ADS-B aircraft for reception/info pass on, anyone experience this? Do you have to be in a coverage area for ADS-B to work plane to plane?

DENNY

HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE

Scene: Japanese war planes approaching Hawaii.
Latest Technology: Surveillance Radar for Situational Awareness for target threats.
Display: Scope indicating targets in area and approaching.
Conclusion: No big deal, probably not a threat maybe just scheduled B-17s arriving.
Action: Turn off equipment and go home after calling someone who cares less.

Conclusion: Technology of the Time Period was a valuable tool. Humans chose to ignore it’s meaning and capabilities. Result was history and death.

DENNY said:

So last year I was flying my non ADS-B Cessna back on the Knik. I do have a mode C transponder and another plane mentioned saw me on his ADS-B. So was my transponder talking to his plane or to a local ADS-B tower that was relaying the info to his plane? My understanding is ADS-B will daisy change past normal coverage area if you line up enough ADS-B aircraft for reception/info pass on, anyone experience this? Do you have to be in a coverage area for ADS-B to work plane to plane?

DENNY

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You were being translated by a ground station and the info sent to the ADS-B client. Here's a map of Alaska ground stations. There's one in or near Wasilla. It would see into Knik.
https://iflyamerica.org/safety_equipping_with_ADS-B.asp

If you had "In" you would have seen the picture he was seeing by intercepting the data sent to him as a client (has ADS-B out). Without an ADS-B "Out" airplane nearby, you wouldn't get that data.

180_jeff said:

We see way too much of this in our society now-a-days: can't come up with a few sentences arguing a point to the contrary or want to shut up the other viewpoint, just call that person an extremist, conspiracy theorist or tinfoil hat wearer.

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Jeff,

If you’d read my earlier post on this subject, you’d understand I am not a big proponent of ADS-B. As I pointed out, I installed it because I operate in some very busy, but not “rule” airspace, so I want anyone with “in” to be able to “see” me. If I didn’t operate in this busy airspace, I wouldn’t install it.

So, I’m not belittling people who don’t install it. But, if the reason you’re not installing it is that you’re afraid of being tracked……you probably already are.

My concern with ADS-B is with “In”. We had this in our school planes, with traffic displayed on large multi function displays. During checkrides, I frequently found the student, and ME staring at that screen trying to decide if a target was really a threat. My current plane has “in”, but the display is an iPad mini, and I find it takes a lot of focusing on that screen (which is not front and center in my panel) to “analyze” a target to determine whether it’s a threat.

All the whole hurtling through the blue with eyes inside……not a good recipe. Maybe there’s a way to Bluetooth the iPad to send me warnings…..that MIGHT be better, but would then still require me to focus on those itty bitty symbols, rather than look out the window.

So, I’m halfway there: Transmit “Out’” via my SkyBeacon, and mostly hope they avoid me. Of course, I also avoid busy areas and corridors like the plague.

I have had several friends “look me up” on their phone, using the signal, and everyone said it shows “anonymous”. I have no doubt that with focus, determination and some tech savvy, they could have got my tail number, but at least they’d have to work for it.

But here’s a question for all: If we’re so worried about being identified, why do we allow our personal information associated with our aircraft registration to be readily available via the internet? Seems to me our Congressional reps should be falling over themselves to protect our privacy.

If our aircraft registration info on line didn’t include the owners name and address…….

MTV

Informally, FAA said they would not use ADS-B data for surveillance. In practice, this seems to be mostly true, with only a few bad apple ASIs using ADS-B data (usually from third-party sources like FlightAware or FlightRadar24). Of course, knowing the FAA, I fully anticipate that will change in the future, but by then ADS-B will likely be a mandate for everyone with an installed electrical system. That said, other agencies (NPS, Fish & Wildlife, US Forest Service, etc.) are regularly using ADS-B data to remind pilots to fly a bit higher over their land (recall the recommendation of 2,000 feet agl).

To me, the more concerning issue is the public access to ADS-B data. There are a lot of residential neighborhoods near airports that have teamed up to report pilots for low flying (and one or two groups that have sued registered owners). Fortunately, there is a solution to that problem by taking advantage of LADD and PIA (PIA only works for 1090 & requires a third party call sign).

*Edit for grammar.

Also worth noting that it's pretty rare to see ADS-B data included in FAA enforcement actions. Generally, they'll stick to tried-and-true RADAR data with ATC audio overlay.

Deleted

Formandfunction said:

I keep hearing this talk about how magical and life saving adsb is yet the facts clearly show a increase in collisions? I would say that if it eases your fears more power to you but like I already said I think it makes most people more nervous. Of course how can you not be nervous with 100million cubic feet of airtraffic compressed on a six inch screen in your face.It's often justified as a midair avoidance instead of it's actual use of organizing controlled traffic. Again my point is that the midair problem is not being addressed with adsb, in fact it might be making things worse giving people a false sense of safety.

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That is an excellent point. It's a form of survivor bias, where people see all the little airplanes on the screen and think that if they wouldn't have seen them, they would have killed them. If I remember right, I think I saw that reinforced in one of the FAA safety briefings where they mentioned that once you see it, you will not want to be without it.

Regarding government surveillance, I think the main difference is that unlike cell phones tracking data which isn't available to everyone, with ADSB, your information is available to everyone, who can then inform the authorities that you:
flew too close to a rookery, or seabird colony, or congested area, or rafters on some wild and scenic river, or... And once the complaint is made, it will be followed up on, and even in anonymous mode, the enforcing agency can easily find out who it was.
Then there are these billing companies that are pimping their ADSB based landing fees:
https://airportimprovement.com/arti...tem-helps-love-field-collect-new-landing-fees
Even just flying too close to an airport can trigger ADSB based landing fees:
https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/ar...fee-charges-based-on-ads-b-data/#.XeKVyXxOnDs

You guys know that you can turn your cell phone off, right?

Web

We have a big group down here this weekend and we did a fly out with around twenty five airplanes. We broke it into two groups and routes and met in the middle. I led the C185/180/182/A36/T34 (yes really) /C208 amphib group of eleven planes. Everybody had ADSB out in my group and boy did it sure make it easy to keep track of everybody. We used the David Jaranson "follow the guy in front of you" method and it worked out great.

However... I got a text about midway through that Memphis center had called Razorback approach and asked them, "What is going on down there?" - out of curiosity as we were under and around airspace. Razorback in turned called us and wondered why we were not talking to them - I think they felt like they were missing out. I suggested on the way back that all twenty or so of us should individually call and ask for flight following or maybe a pop up IFR or two... Of course we did not, but it would have been funny.

One area where ADSB has helped us operating close to the class C at KVBT is that our downwind for 36 is right next to the surface of the C. We occasionally get calls from the class C tower complaining that we were in their airspace, and every time (except when a student or transient wanders in there) we have been able to show with ADSB how that was not the case.

Obviously, flying around with that many airplanes is unusual (it should be for sure), but the tool does help in this case.

sj

I saw only 1 post discussing the real problems.
Gateway to user fees. When the government finally decides they are missing out on too much revenue by you rich pilots it’ll be required.

Nah, they’ll use the nanobots in the Covid vaccine to track us for those.

Nanobot proximity alarm?


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

I'll beat the dead horse again..............
1. enforcement action
2. user fees

Why else would the FAA require targeting the owner? Damn sure not a safety issue.

News flash, guys who live on private airstrips already pay user fees. I don’t fly to public airports. Why should my tax dollars pay for GA airports I don’t use? Why shouldn’t users pay for them?

I agree SB. I don't drive on interstate highways either.........or go to National Parks......or have a EBT card.