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Thread: Should I install ADSB Out on my PA-18? (2022)

  1. #41
    stewartb's Avatar
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    If you think ADS-B can be used against you you should offset that by ADS-B being useful to defend you. That’s one good thing about open source ADS-B tracking. The government does not have an exclusive on that data. Besides, your iPad is a flight recorder. My G3X is a flight recorder. If you want to dispute something you have other data options.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardiff Kook View Post
    OP again- to be clear I have adsb in through stratus/foreflight. My question is on getting adsb out.
    Read the fourth paragraph of post 38 and ask yourself if you were flying near Lebanon and you had ADSB out, would you be helping or hurting traffic awareness for ADSB-in equipped planes.
    Speedo

  3. #43
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    The biggest problem with ADS-B is the provision that if installed, it must be on. That doesn’t make sense, it never has made sense, and it’s the biggest reason more planes aren’t using the equipment in areas where it could improve safety for everyone. Fixing that regulation should be the next big project for AOPA and EAA.

  4. #44
    Grand Pooh Bah soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    Do you want to be seen on the fish finder, or not? If you thought it was valuable enough to do adsb-in, why would you not want to show up on other peoples screens?

    I know this is not a popular concept, but we should have all been required to do adsb-out - even the no-electric and transponder exempt types. There, I said it. I think pilots are capable of multi-tasking and utilizing SI improvements along with looking outside. And even if they aren't/can't, then I am willing to spend 2k to show up as a blip and hope they do some pilot poop and not hit me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardiff Kook View Post
    OP again- to be clear I have adsb in through stratus/foreflight. My question is on getting adsb out.
    Last edited by soyAnarchisto; 09-28-2022 at 04:53 PM. Reason: cussin'
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  5. #45

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    If we should be required to have adsb out, why not be required to give position reports? It’s still perfectly legal to go nordo at many airports, and I don’t hear calls to change that reg, but then most voluntarily comply. It’s interesting to me that adsb/midairs are the current hot topic; poor pilot training/decision making kills far more people every year. Could it be that adsb is much easier to quantify and mandate, so it’s the bandwagon to jump on...?
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  6. #46
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    This is a good exchange of ideas and perspectives. So I'll share what I don't like and do like about ADSB (I have both out and in).

    Don't likes: Surveillance that I didn't request. Not s'posed to turn it off. The Skybeacon strobe interferes in my radio input sometimes.

    Do likes: Surveillance that I did request (e.g. flight following). Find buddies for interception etc. Hint for where to look for traffic - dunno how many times a potentially conflicting target shows up on the screen that I can't seem to acquire visually - but at least I know what direction they are (eyes are corrected to 20-20 with glasses). No issues for entering rule airspace if I want to, even though that's somewhat rare.

    Overall, I don't have any inclination to un-install.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
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  7. #47
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    Flying in Alaska is a little different and everybody tries to work together and cover each other. We use local points almost every and it works great because most bush areas don’t have any ATC coverage. If your going to work in a area often you should first find where they are by simply take a few mins and a map and go find a 135 guy and just ask him/ her to show you them . Never met any pilot that would help you. If your work the area as the old saying goes “get with the program” and make it safer for everyone. If your flying a fast mover just fly at 5-6000’ most of us get nose bleeds above 1500’. If your going to be working over in the Homer area next summer PM me I’ll be happy to meet up and show you around.

  8. #48
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    I flew in SE Ak for about 16 years, ending 32 years ago. It was totally different.

    Edit: I guess that's not relevant. Sorry - -
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO

  9. #49

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    What should be coming is augmented reality vision

    We are doing things like that with equipment now. Roll along a area late in the summer when you can take high resolution video with GPS coordinates of transformers, vaults and other obstacles that get buried under snow. then in the snow clearing equipment we augment the images so plow operators can "see" where those items are under feet of snow and hopefully not hit them. No goggles needed it's just all displayed with distances to the obstructions so plow wings etc can be retracted. Next step will be to fully automate ops like that. But augmented vision with ADSB data would be great on a windscreen.......
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  10. #50
    fancypants's Avatar
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    If you decide you do want to participate in ADS-B out and maintain some amount of privacy, your best option is UAT-978 anonymous mode. Pair a mode C transponder with a Garmin GDL-82 or uAvionix tail/skyBeacon and you've got a decent solution.
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  11. #51

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    If you drive a late model car, especially 2013 or newer, it does record a lot what you do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardiff Kook View Post
    When i say “big brother fear” i am am more talking I do something someone thinks I shouldnt have, rightly or wrongly, and they go back and pull every issue i ever did wrong to demonstrate my “recklessness.”

    Im thinking of either the FAA, an insurance company, or some personal injury attorney- my umbrella policy doesnt cover aviation incidents.

    I have never had a moving car violation, but i am certain that if my car recorded everything i did it would not be hard for someone to selectively pull info to paint me as a very reckless driver even though I am not.

    I am also a nice, respectful person- but if i had a microphone on me constantly recording every word…

    Now- does the decrease risk of a midair justify that… maybe.

  12. #52
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    5 miles to the east entering 45 for left downwind is pretty descriptive.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by fancypants View Post
    If you decide you do want to participate in ADS-B out and maintain some amount of privacy, your best option is UAT-978 anonymous mode. Pair a mode C transponder with a Garmin GDL-82 or uAvionix tail/skyBeacon and you've got a decent solution.
    Except it is anything but anonymous.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    ..... I witnessed a midair at a Phoenix airport about 20 years ago. Two people in a J-3 died and two people in the other plane died. Uncontrolled dirt strip. And a friend died (along with three other people) in a midair near Russian Mission (uncontrolled gravel strip) about five years ago. He was flying a Caravan and the other plane was a Super Cub. Neither plane was equipped with ADSB. I contend that if all four of those planes had ADSB in/out neither collision would have occurred.
    I witnessed a near mid-air at my airport tuesday morning.
    C150 flying the pattern doing touch-n-goes,
    and a C185 amphib doing a straight-in.
    If not for another pilot overhead the airport calling out a warning,
    I'm sure there would have been a crash.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I talked to both pilots afterwards,
    both claimed it was the other guy's fault--
    "he never said anything on the radio".
    FWIW they both had ADSB in and out.
    So both having (and presumably using) the radio didn't help, neither did ADSB.
    Bottom line, it's all about see and avoid.

    The 185 driver is a pilot based here, so complacency was probably a factor.
    The 150 guy was a student pilot, on his first solo trip away from his nearby home airport.
    So inexperience was no doubt a factor.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  15. #55
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    A hammer won’t pound a nail if you don’t know how to use it, and can do considerable damage if you use it incorrectly. So it goes with most tools.

    I’m not a fan of straight in finals at uncontrolled strips. But that’s a different topic.
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  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    Other thoughts on ADSB. Someone commented that ADSB isn’t useful if it’s not used by everyone. That’s simply not the case. You don’t have to know where every single plane is in order to receive the traffic avoidance benefits of ADSB. You can plan to avoid the planes it’s displaying, and that’s a huge benefit. And since it’s showing you where it knows there are planes (and you will avoid those places) then you can concentrate your scan on places where it isn’t showing planes. So it can help make your scan more effective if you choose to use the information it’s presenting you.
    (...)

    The contention that ADSB is a benefit only if all planes have it is just plain wrong.
    Hey, that sounds just like vaccines where the unvaccinated are protected when majority is vaccinated.
    The ones without ADSB-out should be well protected once sufficient number of other planes has ADSB-out.

    My experience has been that pilots with ADSB-out tend not to communicate as much, presumably lulled to the idea that everyone else also has ADSB-out?
    I also noticed the tendency for those with ADSB to visually search for planes that show up on their ADSB screen, and not for traffic that is not on the screen.
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  17. #57

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    It's all about see and avoid, right? I've had a 5 very close calls over the years, VFR and IFR, (i.e. close enough to see rivets). Each of those incidents could have been avoided with ADSB and having ADSB since has enabled me to avoid other aircraft and plan approaches, etc. You have to see to avoid and ADSB allows you to "see" aircraft that are not visible from the front seat with your eyes only.

    So yeah, maybe I'm not too worried that my flying habits will cause an issue with "big brother". I'm more concerned about the other yahoos out there. As with anything, you have to keep scanning and electronics don't solve everything (autopilot dependence?) but they sure add to our toolbox and increase situational awareness.
    Cheers
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  18. #58
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    Often we form opinions not based in facts but with our fears and emotions. Personally I think adsb has hyper inflated peoples midair fears because they laser focus on these screen targets constantly. The facts however paint a real different picture. For starters per the numbers midair collisions have increased dramatically since the introduction of adsb. 80%+ are pilots with very high hours and almost always a go fast plane overtaking a slower one initiating a collision. Almost always the initiating plane has adsb. Also the majority happen within a thousand feet of a uncontrolled airport. So take those facts and do what you want with them but old cocky selfish pilots in a hurry with little regard for other traffic represent the real midair problem.
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  19. #59
    stewartb's Avatar
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    I'd say fears and emotions bias more guys against it than for it. And in that most guys that speak out against it have zero time using it. The internet is funny that way.
    Last edited by stewartb; 09-29-2022 at 02:23 PM.
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  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I'd say fears and emotions bias more guys against it than for it. And in that most guys that speak out against it have zero time using it. The internet is funny that way.
    [Dislike this post] button

  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180_jeff View Post
    Except it is anything but anonymous.
    I've heard this before, but I can't find any real evidence that it's true. Outside of specific limited circumstances, the UAT-978 transceiver operating in anonymous mode does not emit information that can be directly related to its true ICAO code. There are avenues for spatial and temporal analysis that might indirectly yield a possible set of ICAO codes, but I don't believe that's a practical concern, and I don't think that's what anyone's thinking about when they condemn anonymous mode as not anonymous.

    If you must operate with ADS-B out, there are meaningful enhancements to personal privacy by equipping with UAT-978 and using anonymous mode. 1090ES broadcasts your identity everywhere, all the time. UAT-978 anonymous mode does not.
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  22. #62

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    Wasn't it on this forum where we had a yuge thread on why it isn't anonymous? Probably or maybe is was one of the many on BCP or BT as well. There was a webinar a couple of years ago with the FAA ADBS office and Bendix King and they explained how it was done. Anyway, you are wrong fancypants.

  23. #63
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Just a note: 978 mhz UAT signals are NOT recognized outside of US airspace. Only 1090 mhz signals are. Keep that in mind if you travel.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  24. #64
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180_jeff View Post
    Wasn't it on this forum where we had a yuge thread on why it isn't anonymous? Probably or maybe is was one of the many on BCP or BT as well. There was a webinar a couple of years ago with the FAA ADBS office and Bendix King and they explained how it was done. Anyway, you are wrong fancypants.
    Actually, I think the primary problem is some tin foil hats are getting a wee bit too tight.

    MTV
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  25. #65
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    Flightaware.com keeps track of where and when I flew an ADSB plane so I can keep my log books more accurate if I am delayed in my entries.

  26. #66

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    I have in/out on two of my airplanes and I find it very helpful, especially around uncontrolled airports. Half the guys who make position reports are wrong about where they claim to be. It’s always been that way, but now I can actually locate their true position.

    I have no radio at all in my biplane. I get grief about that from some other pilots who are mad that I am not making position reports, even though I am especially careful to use standard and conservative pattern procedures. To which I suggest that they should be seeing and avoiding primarily.

    I do think that the big brother concerns are overblown. The devices in my pocket/auto/home are more dangerous than ADSB in my opinion.
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  27. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Actually, I think the primary problem is some tin foil hats are getting a wee bit too tight.

    MTV
    We see way too much of this in our society now-a-days: can't come up with a few sentences arguing a point to the contrary or want to shut up the other viewpoint, just call that person an extremist, conspiracy theorist or tinfoil hat wearer.
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  28. #68

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    It is unfortunate that ADSB has been used for enforcement. That has damaged a life saving technology. Your hat doesn't need to be too tight to know that law enforcement will take advantage of every technology there is and yes the feds are notorious for that in all kinds of agencies. There is a genuine reason to be skeptical that it won't be used against you and that doesn't mean you have to be running drugs from Columbia. Cut across the corner of airspace while keeping those eyeballs outside? Gotcha! And yes enforcement is that ridiculous. It happens frequently all over the federal government of the good ol' Land of the Free.

    It is also ridiculous to think you can just trust the old eyeballs to see everything. Sit in your plane and notice you can't see above, behind, underneath, behind the frame of the windshield, the compass, the iPad, the glare of the sun etc... Even head on closes extremely quickly and doesn't give apparent movement. You are not a fighter ace and you are not looking out the bubble of a P-51. Generally the "Big Sky" theory works until it doesn't. It is unfortunate for negative uses to make people hesitant to install a safety advancement. Understandable but unfortunate. Also screwing up implementation of much of anything is a government specialty as well. History is clear on all of that with aviation being just one example.
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  29. #69
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    I keep hearing this talk about how magical and life saving adsb is yet the facts clearly show a increase in collisions? I would say that if it eases your fears more power to you but like I already said I think it makes most people more nervous. Of course how can you not be nervous with 100million cubic feet of airtraffic compressed on a six inch screen in your face.It's often justified as a midair avoidance instead of it's actual use of organizing controlled traffic. Again my point is that the midair problem is not being addressed with adsb, in fact it might be making things worse giving people a false sense of safety.
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  30. #70
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    Of course it's not our fault that our community thinks this way,the faa has been telling us how safe and necessary adsb is for a decade. Any intelligent person could have looked at statistics and clearly seen that transponders are not the problem. My advice to anyone with adsb? If a fast plane is running you down in the pattern don't trust a dot on your screen and move to safety.
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  31. #71

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    ADSB out - Sooner or later, it's going to be necessary to get in to a class C. Maintenance, to pick up a friend who flew in from Hawaii, whatever.

    You can do it without ADSB out, but you will have to fill a form and get approval with the FAA at least 2 hours in advance and hope that they approve of your flimsy excuse. I had a partial electrical failure in Valentine, Nebraska ("Honeymoon Capital of the midwest!") coming back from Ennis, MT in my "other" plane. I lost my NavCom #1, autopilot and ADSB. I had to spend an hour navigating the FAA website and filling out a stupid form on a slow FBO computer before my last leg into the class C in Knoxville. My first request to get permission was denied for no apparent reason. I started all over, changed the wording of my reason for asking permission a little and then it was approved. Capricious bureaucratic BS at its worst. If you go into a class C without permission, you WILL automatically be in trouble with the big dogs. I notified the Knoxville approach guy before entering the C airspace that I had no ADSB and that I had the FAA permission, but he seemed like he could personally care less.

    ADSB in - get it, even if it's a Stratos and a mini iPad. Even if only half of the planes are using ADSB out, it's nice to be able to check to see if someone might be coming in to the same rural airport or flying the other way up the same river you are flying over and gawking at. The weather feature is also a major advantage. I would bet that most of the people reading this already have Foreflight or Garmin Pilot anyway.

    I don't like big brother either and the government is predictably abusing its power with the ADSB data. No surprise. It's gonna get worse, too. Under our constitution, we should be protected from self incrimination. But I have ADSB out as much for the benefit of my fellow pilots as for my benefit. Harsh words from just another random guy on the internet with a different perspective , but if you are using ADSB in for traffic but not putting out the data yourself, you are, in a way, taking selfish advantage of your fellow aviators. And that's not cool.
    Last edited by Tennessee; 09-30-2022 at 06:19 AM.
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  32. #72

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    So last year I was flying my non ADS-B Cessna back on the Knik. I do have a mode C transponder and another plane mentioned saw me on his ADS-B. So was my transponder talking to his plane or to a local ADS-B tower that was relaying the info to his plane? My understanding is ADS-B will daisy change past normal coverage area if you line up enough ADS-B aircraft for reception/info pass on, anyone experience this? Do you have to be in a coverage area for ADS-B to work plane to plane?

    DENNY

  33. #73
    BradleyG's Avatar
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    HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE

    Scene: Japanese war planes approaching Hawaii.
    Latest Technology: Surveillance Radar for Situational Awareness for target threats.
    Display: Scope indicating targets in area and approaching.
    Conclusion: No big deal, probably not a threat maybe just scheduled B-17s arriving.
    Action: Turn off equipment and go home after calling someone who cares less.

    Conclusion: Technology of the Time Period was a valuable tool. Humans chose to ignore it’s meaning and capabilities. Result was history and death.
    If the pilot fears to test his skills with the elements, he has chosen the wrong profession.....Lindbergh
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  34. #74
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    So last year I was flying my non ADS-B Cessna back on the Knik. I do have a mode C transponder and another plane mentioned saw me on his ADS-B. So was my transponder talking to his plane or to a local ADS-B tower that was relaying the info to his plane? My understanding is ADS-B will daisy change past normal coverage area if you line up enough ADS-B aircraft for reception/info pass on, anyone experience this? Do you have to be in a coverage area for ADS-B to work plane to plane?

    DENNY
    You were being translated by a ground station and the info sent to the ADS-B client. Here's a map of Alaska ground stations. There's one in or near Wasilla. It would see into Knik.
    https://iflyamerica.org/safety_equipping_with_ADS-B.asp

    If you had "In" you would have seen the picture he was seeing by intercepting the data sent to him as a client (has ADS-B out). Without an ADS-B "Out" airplane nearby, you wouldn't get that data.
    Last edited by stewartb; 09-30-2022 at 11:44 AM.
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  35. #75
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180_jeff View Post
    We see way too much of this in our society now-a-days: can't come up with a few sentences arguing a point to the contrary or want to shut up the other viewpoint, just call that person an extremist, conspiracy theorist or tinfoil hat wearer.
    Jeff,

    If you’d read my earlier post on this subject, you’d understand I am not a big proponent of ADS-B. As I pointed out, I installed it because I operate in some very busy, but not “rule” airspace, so I want anyone with “in” to be able to “see” me. If I didn’t operate in this busy airspace, I wouldn’t install it.

    So, I’m not belittling people who don’t install it. But, if the reason you’re not installing it is that you’re afraid of being tracked……you probably already are.

    My concern with ADS-B is with “In”. We had this in our school planes, with traffic displayed on large multi function displays. During checkrides, I frequently found the student, and ME staring at that screen trying to decide if a target was really a threat. My current plane has “in”, but the display is an iPad mini, and I find it takes a lot of focusing on that screen (which is not front and center in my panel) to “analyze” a target to determine whether it’s a threat.

    All the whole hurtling through the blue with eyes inside……not a good recipe. Maybe there’s a way to Bluetooth the iPad to send me warnings…..that MIGHT be better, but would then still require me to focus on those itty bitty symbols, rather than look out the window.

    So, I’m halfway there: Transmit “Out’” via my SkyBeacon, and mostly hope they avoid me. Of course, I also avoid busy areas and corridors like the plague.

    I have had several friends “look me up” on their phone, using the signal, and everyone said it shows “anonymous”. I have no doubt that with focus, determination and some tech savvy, they could have got my tail number, but at least they’d have to work for it.

    But here’s a question for all: If we’re so worried about being identified, why do we allow our personal information associated with our aircraft registration to be readily available via the internet? Seems to me our Congressional reps should be falling over themselves to protect our privacy.

    If our aircraft registration info on line didn’t include the owners name and address…….

    MTV
    Last edited by mvivion; 09-30-2022 at 02:19 PM.

  36. #76
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    Informally, FAA said they would not use ADS-B data for surveillance. In practice, this seems to be mostly true, with only a few bad apple ASIs using ADS-B data (usually from third-party sources like FlightAware or FlightRadar24). Of course, knowing the FAA, I fully anticipate that will change in the future, but by then ADS-B will likely be a mandate for everyone with an installed electrical system. That said, other agencies (NPS, Fish & Wildlife, US Forest Service, etc.) are regularly using ADS-B data to remind pilots to fly a bit higher over their land (recall the recommendation of 2,000 feet agl).

    To me, the more concerning issue is the public access to ADS-B data. There are a lot of residential neighborhoods near airports that have teamed up to report pilots for low flying (and one or two groups that have sued registered owners). Fortunately, there is a solution to that problem by taking advantage of LADD and PIA (PIA only works for 1090 & requires a third party call sign).

    *Edit for grammar.
    Last edited by DailTragger; 09-30-2022 at 02:19 PM.
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  37. #77
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    Also worth noting that it's pretty rare to see ADS-B data included in FAA enforcement actions. Generally, they'll stick to tried-and-true RADAR data with ATC audio overlay.

  38. #78
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    Should I install ADSB Out on my PA-18? (2022)

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  39. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Formandfunction View Post
    I keep hearing this talk about how magical and life saving adsb is yet the facts clearly show a increase in collisions? I would say that if it eases your fears more power to you but like I already said I think it makes most people more nervous. Of course how can you not be nervous with 100million cubic feet of airtraffic compressed on a six inch screen in your face.It's often justified as a midair avoidance instead of it's actual use of organizing controlled traffic. Again my point is that the midair problem is not being addressed with adsb, in fact it might be making things worse giving people a false sense of safety.
    That is an excellent point. It's a form of survivor bias, where people see all the little airplanes on the screen and think that if they wouldn't have seen them, they would have killed them. If I remember right, I think I saw that reinforced in one of the FAA safety briefings where they mentioned that once you see it, you will not want to be without it.

    Regarding government surveillance, I think the main difference is that unlike cell phones tracking data which isn't available to everyone, with ADSB, your information is available to everyone, who can then inform the authorities that you:
    flew too close to a rookery, or seabird colony, or congested area, or rafters on some wild and scenic river, or... And once the complaint is made, it will be followed up on, and even in anonymous mode, the enforcing agency can easily find out who it was.
    Then there are these billing companies that are pimping their ADSB based landing fees:
    https://airportimprovement.com/artic...w-landing-fees
    Even just flying too close to an airport can trigger ADSB based landing fees:
    https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/art.../#.XeKVyXxOnDs
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  40. #80
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    You guys know that you can turn your cell phone off, right?

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    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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