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Thread: Should I install ADSB Out on my PA-18? (2022)

  1. #1

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    Should I install ADSB Out on my PA-18? (2022)

    I live and fly primarily in Central Oregon. I haven't been around any class C/B with this plane.

    I'm trying to figure out if benefits outweigh cons here- my guess is they do but figure I would ask

    Pros- Traffic avoidance

    Cons- Big brother


    I follow all the rules, laws, safe flying, etc. I just want to avoid being surveilled without significant benefit.

    I currently fly with a Stratus and foreflight so I have limited ADSB "in." I guess I don't get all the traffic unless someone is close with adsb out- is that how it works?

    I take it ADSB has been demonstrated to dramatically decrease the chance of a midair? One fear I have is people have become so accustomed to ADSB that they would be shocked to see me if I wasn't on their screen- making it almost necessary today. I had a 182 overtake me and overfly me directly by 200 feet a few weeks ago. He never saw me until I told him he had just overflown me when he asked where I was.

    Talk me into it or out of it. Pros. Cons.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    If you have adsb in you get the traffic without being watched. I’ve flown cross country and haven’t found a need for adsb. If you’re not constantly flying in airspace it’s easy to do the wavier


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    SJ's Avatar
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    There is another thread on ADSB with lots of opinions. Actually, there are lots of threads on the subject!

    https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...highlight=adsb

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  4. #4
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Do you fly within radar coverage? Out in the boondocks? Where you operate should factor into the decision. In radar coverage mode C transponders are translated to ADS-B so you get a pretty complete traffic picture. Out in the sticks most guys don't use transponders so much of the flying traffic is invisible to ADS-B. I experience both. I have ADS-B "In" in both planes and "Out" in one. Personally, I'm more inclined to add "Out" to the plane that's lacking it than to remove it from the plane that has it.
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Do you fly within radar coverage? Out in the boondocks? Where you operate should factor into the decision. In radar coverage mode C transponders are translated to ADS-B so you get a pretty complete traffic picture. Out in the sticks most guys don't use transponders so much of the flying traffic is invisible to ADS-B. I experience both. I have ADS-B "In" in both planes and "Out" in one. Personally, I'm more inclined to add "Out" to the plane that's lacking it than to remove it from the plane that has it.
    I have mode c.

    I fly in radar coverage.

    If I am on radar coverage does that uplink to someones adsb in?

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    There is another thread on ADSB with lots of opinions. Actually, there are lots of threads on the subject!

    https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...highlight=adsb

    sj
    I read that thread prior to posting. Mostly about pulling out adsb (you can.)

    I didnt see many other discussions but maybe quick search was not sufficient.
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  7. #7
    Grand Pooh Bah soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    I personally wouldn't do it unless I lived and flew a lot under a mode c veil. Unless everybody is using it, it really isn't that useful.... unless you really want to be flying high up where tailwinds and jet streams (> 10,000 msl and > 2500 AGL) are helpful. Eventually we are going to need it to fly to Canada, and you need it today to fly to Mexico.
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  8. #8
    40m's Avatar
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    I have it and selfishly wish everyone had it in part because my choice of flying involves small groups 2-4 and often larger groups 4-10 planes participating in fly outs and mountain flying. It comforts me to have additional awareness for all of our safety. I have never been bothered by the big brother threat, I feel the benefits far out weight those concerns.

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!
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  9. #9

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    No.
    Denny
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  10. #10

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    Personal Opinion Ahead....

    I say put it in there. Your recent encounter with that 182 shows the benefit. Remember that if you're involved in a midair, it doesn't matter whether he didn't see you or you didn't see him, everybody dies anyway. If either party sees the other disaster can be averted. Anything you can do to make yourself more visible to anyone you may be sharing the sky with is a positive - and may just be the one little thing that saves your life.

    Yes maybe people are too dependent upon them these days, but that only makes it more practical. If nobody was using the system there would be no reason to be part of it. Since everyone is, it would seem foolish (my opinion only) not to participate. Yes you have "in" but without "out" you have to be the one to observe and avoid traffic. Add "out" and now other folks can see and avoid you. I'm sure you're incredibly aware, but we all miss things. I rather give someone the opportunity not to kill me than to expect that I will notice every potential conflict in time.

    This is modern society. Everyone is filming everything. If you don't want to be surveilled, stay in your house and away from the windows.

    Please note the preceding is opinion only and carries less weight than a hummingbird full of helium. It is worth every penny you paid for it.
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  11. #11
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardiff Kook View Post
    I have mode c.

    I fly in radar coverage.

    If I am on radar coverage does that uplink to someones adsb in?
    TIS-B (a component of ADS-B) translates Mode C airplanes within the radar coverage area to show them on ADS-B displays. You should see them with any In receiver.
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  12. #12

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    I wouldn’t/won’t get it. Too many stories of law-abiding local guys getting harassed having to explain perfectly normal flying/maneuvering. One guy got accused of being a different plane due to some programming glitch, and apparently some of our other agencies are availing themselves of the data; know one guy who got a call from park service alleging bear harassment based on adsb info. Also people accused of turning it off due to coverage lapses... Not worth it for me- I’ll roll the dice and try to remember to look outside once in a while...
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  13. #13
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardiff Kook View Post
    I live and fly primarily in Central Oregon. I haven't been around any class C/B with this plane.

    Thanks.
    There's your answer, right there. No. In the future, IF you need it, then install it at that time.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  14. #14
    cubdrvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    There's your answer, right there. No. In the future, IF you need it, then install it at that time.

    Web
    Wholeheartedly agree !!
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"
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  15. #15
    stewartb's Avatar
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    One thing I like about ADS-B is on a low day when you can’t really tell how good the weather might be? Look at ADS-B Exchange to see who’s out there. On those days I’m glad those guys added it.
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    TIS-B (a component of ADS-B) translates Mode C airplanes within the radar coverage area to show them on ADS-B displays. You should see them with any In receiver.
    I believe you also need ads-b out or be near another aircraft with ads-b out in order to get TIS-B transmitted to you.

    From FAA (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/adsb/pilot):
    TIS-B information is available to aircraft that broadcast valid ADS-B Out and utilize ADS-B In on 978 MHz (UAT), 1090MHz (1090ES) or both. The aircraft must be within coverage of an ADS-B ground station and an FAA radar or multilateration system to receive the target information.
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  17. #17
    mvivion's Avatar
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    The area I live in is distant from any Charlie or Bravo airspace, and I rarely go to those in any case. BUT, traffic around here has gotten really busy, and traffic here is “diverse” with a lot of training aircraft mixing with airline, private jet, and noodles like me, roaming around the valley’s airspace.

    I installed a wing mounted uAvionix SkyBeacon some time ago. That unit allows me to operate it in “anonymous mode”, which may or may not really be anonymous, but allows ATC to see my ID, while other receivers see a “target”. So, the jet folks and training aircraft can “see” me, but casual observers have to work at it a bit more to figure out who I am.

    If it weren’t for all the traffic here, I would NOT have installed ADS-B. I fly with an iPad and Sentry, so I can see traffic as well, at least here in the valley, but I really don’t look at it much, I still look out the windows at our fantastic scenery most of the time. But there is merit to “announcing my presence” to others.

    MTV
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  18. #18
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    I wouldn't have installed adsb if I didn't live & fly around so much class B C & D aka " rule airspace".
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  19. #19
    Speedo's Avatar
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    I’m a proponent of ADSB in/out. I’ve spent the summer mostly flying between Anchorage and King Salmon, Dillingham, and Kulik Lake, with some charters to other parts of the state. Most of the float planes operating in the King Salmon area use ADSB in/out and I’ve found it really helpful in figuring out who is where. The float pilots are good at announcing their position, but often they’re naming landmarks or features I don’t know. The ADSB has been really helpful in figuring out who I need to coordinate with, especially as I’m often flying at speeds much higher than theirs. The ADSB info shows me a plane’s tail number, so I can get on the CTAF and let the pilot know I’ll be overtaking him and where to look for me. When the King Salmon tower is closed this is especially helpful.

    The FIS-B weather that comes along with ADSB-in has been really helpful in visualizing the weather and avoiding heavy precipitation when VFR. It’s also handy for getting METARs and deducing which runway will be in use and the likely path of outbound planes. I like being able to check NOTAMs, too. Which side of the Togiak runway is closed? Pull up the NOTAM and there’s the answer.

    I also like to be able to see a plane’s speed. Coming in to ANC I can easily do 210 KIAS up to a five mile final, but the heavies are typically at 180 or less by then. So I can look at the speed of the plane in front of me and adjust my speed accordingly and keep good spacing without Approach or Tower having to tell me to. The same concept applies to Super Cubs: let’s say you’re on downwind doing 65 KIAS and a Baron is planning to enter the pattern. If you both have ADSB he can adjust his speed or the width of his pattern, and you can monitor his proximity and maneuver if you don’t like how close he’s getting.

    Finally, I witnessed a midair at a Phoenix airport about 20 years ago. Two people in a J-3 died and two people in the other plane died. Uncontrolled dirt strip. And a friend died (along with three other people) in a midair near Russian Mission (uncontrolled gravel strip) about five years ago. He was flying a Caravan and the other plane was a Super Cub. Neither plane was equipped with ADSB. I contend that if all four of those planes had ADSB in/out neither collision would have occurred.
    Last edited by Speedo; 09-28-2022 at 09:24 PM.
    Speedo
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  20. #20
    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    Neither plane was equipped with ADSB. I contend that if all four of those planes had ADSB in/out neither collision would have occurred.
    There is a huge range of capability for ADS-B In. Just having traffic depicted on a "tablet" may help with traffic awareness when workload is low. It takes a good aural warning system to significantly reduce the risk of mid-air collision when work load is higher.

    My Garmin G3X provides "TRAFFIC" calls but I really wish Garmin would enhance it to have "ATAS" alerting capability.

    https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/.../AC20-172B.pdf

    "2-5. Alerts.
    c. Each ATAS aural alert should be annunciated by a dedicated voice message consistent with the requirements in TSO-C195b. The voice message will be annunciated over a cockpit speaker and through a headset/helmet at a volume adequate for clear understanding at high cockpit noise levels, but not excessively loud at low noise levels. The evaluation of the message annunciated through a cockpit speaker includes the casewhere a flight crew member is wearing a headset covering the outboard ear, when appropriate. ATAS aural alerts provide bearing, range, relative altitude, and optionally, a vertical sense of the alerted traffic. Vertical sense of the alerted traffic can be of three types: climbing, descending, or level."
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  21. #21
    Utah-Jay's Avatar
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    My plane will have it. I want every clue possible of other planes in the vicinity.

    I’m typing this post on my tracking device that also makes phone calls. I laugh at people worried about big brother watching! Just assume you’re being watched/tracked already because you are being watched/tracked already

    I’m not breaking any laws nor do I intend to in the future

    Yes I’ve been contacted about flying low, it was a non-issue

    Let’s be safe out there

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    Absolutely NOT

  23. #23
    CubCruiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    I wouldn't have installed adsb if I didn't live & fly around so much class B C & D aka " rule airspace".
    Just to be clear, "D" is not rule airspace. There was a guy in our pilot group that convinced a fair number of folks that they had to have ADS-B by the mandate to continue flying in and out of the Class Delta.

    Daryl
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  24. #24
    BradleyG's Avatar
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    I have a Garmin 345 GTX transponder for ADS-B in and out in my Cub.

    The Garmin in the Cub requires a panel light and an aural warning in the intercom. It triggers both based on distance and closure. Foreflight will announce traffic at a distance farther away than that distance required by the Garmin. Foreflight audio is ported via Bluetooth to the intercom.

    For a Cub this is about as close to TCAS alert as possible without actual TCAS. ADSB situation awareness and the pilot become the “Resolution Advisory” portion.

    I find one of the best features is the ID tag…..a quick look at N number app and you know what type of aircraft you are dealing with in traffic pattern. Easily done well outside the pattern.

    To each’s own! I find the advantages, at cub speeds, far outweighs the cons.


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  25. #25
    Formandfunction's Avatar
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    Had a cop that didn't like me write me a 100% fake ticket. Turns out traffic violations don't require burden of proof so they fined me on just the one officers word. The faa operates in much the same manner requiring no burden of proof and subject to biased personal opinions or feelings. Add to that the faa's ability to interpret regs however they see fit and things can end up a Salem witch hunt with you burning on the stake. For someone that's never been involved with interactions like that it might seem like conspiracy theory but this stuff happens all the time to regular folks trying to follow the rules.
    So my vote is no and just spend a extra 20 minutes flying around controlled airspace if it's a option. If you're concerned with midairs just be super cautious on final because almost all of them happen there.
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  26. #26

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    If I didn't live right next to B and the DC SFRA I would never install it.

  27. #27
    cubdrvr's Avatar
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    Real cub pilots don't fly much above 500'........no conflicting traffic. Even fly low patterns, short base & final, with eyes open.
    ADS-B nationwide will come soon enough.
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    Real cub pilots don't fly much above 500'........no conflicting traffic. Even fly low patterns, short base & final, with eyes open.
    ADS-B nationwide will come soon enough.
    Until that AT802 fills up your windscreen

  29. #29

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    I realize the safety factor that ads-b brings to the table, but i think it's a bit like a ballistic parachute in a cirrus, sort of a crutch for a pilot to lean on. I know this isn't the case for all that use it, but looking at a screen instead of out your windows is a bad habit to get into.
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  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1934A View Post
    I realize the safety factor that ads-b brings to the table, but i think it's a bit like a ballistic parachute in a cirrus, sort of a crutch for a pilot to lean on. I know this isn't the case for all that use it, but looking at a screen instead of out your windows is a bad habit to get into.
    Op here- I get it but it’s the other guy I worry about as well. The one looking at his screen and not out his window. “No planes on screen, must be no traffic.”
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CubCruiser View Post
    Just to be clear, "D" is not rule airspace. There was a guy in our pilot group that convinced a fair number of folks that they had to have ADS-B by the mandate to continue flying in and out of the Class Delta. Daryl
    Guess I misspoke re class D.
    My home airport is about 15 miles away from the SEA mode C veil.
    So going without ADSB isn't practical.

    FWIW here's AOPA's rundown of where ADS-B out is required, from

    Where is ADS-B Out Required? - AOPA

    The FAA requires ADS-B Out capability in the continental United States, in the ADS-B rule airspace designated by FAR 91.225:
    • Class A, B, and C airspace;
    • Class E airspace at or above 10,000 feet msl, excluding airspace at and below 2,500 feet agl;
    • Within 30 nautical miles of a Class B primary airport (the Mode C veil);
    • Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of Class B or Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet;
    • Class E airspace over the Gulf of Mexico, at and above 3,000 feet msl, within 12 nm of the U.S. coast.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  32. #32
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    That’s not how it works. That’s a myth spun by guys who’ve not used it. Wait til you have a fast plane closing on you from behind. Or climbing fast toward you at that 500’ while you think you’re the only plane out there. The little symbol on my screen tells me their position, heading, altitude, etc in literally a glance. I can climb, change course, wag my wings, talk on the radio, etc as I see fit. Pretty darn handy in my area, where “real” Cub drivers live among not only LOTS of other Cubs, but Cessnas and other faster machines. See and be seen.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardiff Kook View Post
    Op here- I get it but it’s the other guy I worry about as well. The one looking at his screen and not out his window. “No planes on screen, must be no traffic.”
    Those guys never looked out their windows even prior to ADSB.
    N1PA
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  34. #34
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    I have had several near misses. Most were with power planes than nearly ran me down while I was thermalling in a glider. I have used PCAS, FLARM, and ADS-B In and Out. None of these reduced my outside visual scan and all of them contributed to my awareness of other traffic.

    There is no doubt in my mind that a well implemented ADS-B In system with aural alerting increases safety and, if used properly, is far superior to unaided visual scan.
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  35. #35
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    Does anyone use audio notifications from an iPad or iPhone? My G3X does it for me. No audio from the iPad diminishes its usefulness for traffic. I never bluetoothed the iPad to my headset for traffic notifications but I probably should.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Does anyone use audio notifications from an iPad or iPhone? My G3X does it for me. No audio from the iPad diminishes its usefulness for traffic. I never bluetoothed the iPad to my headset for traffic notifications but I probably should.
    My ipad alerts me via bluetooth to bose a20
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  37. #37
    Speedo's Avatar
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    For the folks concerned about ADSB and Big Brother, this article in today’s ADN suggests your local police force might have already compiled detailed data about you by using your cell phone. In my mind, the problem of known governmental tracking of cell phones is an infinitely bigger problem than potential ADSB tracking, and ADSB’s ability to warn of impending traffic conflicts far, far outweighs the cons of potential tracking.
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  38. #38
    Speedo's Avatar
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    Other thoughts on ADSB. Someone commented that ADSB isn’t useful if it’s not used by everyone. That’s simply not the case. You don’t have to know where every single plane is in order to receive the traffic avoidance benefits of ADSB. You can plan to avoid the planes it’s displaying, and that’s a huge benefit. And since it’s showing you where it knows there are planes (and you will avoid those places) then you can concentrate your scan on places where it isn’t showing planes. So it can help make your scan more effective if you choose to use the information it’s presenting you.

    Flying in and out of Dillingham I’ve learned that some of the planes based there don’t have ADSB. I’ll listen on the CTAF and use the ADSB display to help me figure out who’s where (remember, a lot of them are giving position reports of landmarks that I don’t know), and then I only have to query a few other guys to get a complete picture of the traffic.

    For example, say there are five planes going into or out of DLG, and three of them have ADSB. In a few moments I can determine if I’ll need to maneuver to avoid any of the ADSB guys. No radio calls required. That leaves two other planes to deal with. That guy reporting that he’s over Wackadoodle Falls, which I’ve never heard of: I give him a call, tell him I don’t know where Wackadoodle Falls is and ask for bearing and distance to the airport. Same for the guy who’s flying over Cemetery Ridge (another place I’m unfamiliar with). If all the planes had ADSB I wouldn’t need to make any radio calls, which would be great. But it’s not a perfect world, and I can call the other two guys to get a complete picture of the current situation.

    Now move the setting to Lebanon, TN, the uncontrolled airport where I used to be based. There are three very busy flight schools in the area and many GA pilots from six airports in the area. There are also three air ambulance companies (typically flying 500’ - 1000’ AGL) and loads of corporate jets, some being flown by pilots who only do instrument approaches and some by pilots who think it’s nifty to join the pattern at 150 KIAS and mix it up with the 172s doing touch and goes. On any given day you’ve got rusty GA pilots who don’t know the standard reporting points, get South mixed up with North, are on the wrong CTAF, etc. So if they’re using the radio, they’re giving bad information. You’ve got student pilots on solo flights who aren’t sure if they’re coming up on Gallatin or Lebanon or Smyrna or Murphreesboro, and they’re tying up the radio, too. Factor in the dickhead who’s chatting with his buddy on the CTAF. In short, the CTAF is so busy it’s hard to get a word in edgewise. And since we’re in the South the visibility is a tiny fraction of what folks west of the Mississippi experience - it’s probably less than 10 miles in haze. So even if every plane is running the highest output pulse lights and your vision is perfect and your windscreen is spotless, it’s still hard to spot traffic. If nobody had ADSB it would be a real crapshoot trying to quickly figure out where everybody is and where the threats are coming from. If half of the planes have ADSB your job is much, much easier. And if 80% of them have ADSB your risk is lower still.

    The contention that ADSB is a benefit only if all planes have it is just plain wrong.
    Speedo
    Likes Cardiff Kook, Tennessee liked this post

  39. #39

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    When i say “big brother fear” i am am more talking I do something someone thinks I shouldnt have, rightly or wrongly, and they go back and pull every issue i ever did wrong to demonstrate my “recklessness.”

    Im thinking of either the FAA, an insurance company, or some personal injury attorney- my umbrella policy doesnt cover aviation incidents.

    I have never had a moving car violation, but i am certain that if my car recorded everything i did it would not be hard for someone to selectively pull info to paint me as a very reckless driver even though I am not.

    I am also a nice, respectful person- but if i had a microphone on me constantly recording every word…

    Now- does the decrease risk of a midair justify that… maybe.

  40. #40

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    OP again- to be clear I have adsb in through stratus/foreflight. My question is on getting adsb out.

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