Hi all,
Hoping someone could shed some light on why my new (to me) J3 on EDO 1320 won't turn in anything above 10kt winds. We've had to be towed twice into the bay now because it just won't turn.
Hoping someone has some advice on what to check.
Thanks!
Water rudder all the way down, not hung halfway?
single or double rudders?
Hold down spring on water rudder? J3 was certified with a single water rudder to keep you from getting into upset trouble. You'll get better turning after you get some time with it. Button hook turn helps ( turn opposite direction slightly first ). Lot of technique, you'll get better after you scare your self a few times. Towed? Seaplane pilots don't get towed, we paddle
Glenn
"Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"LesterBurnham thanked for this post
I'm headed there tomorrow to check the rigging and ensure all is well. Will update.
Originally Posted by cubdriver2
Thanks Glenn, will check that out. btw, my instructor is currently flying the plane as I don't even have my float rating yet. I'm a CPL with IFR but no seaplane rating. Hoping to get that soon if we can get the plane to turn
Follow up on hold down spring: they get old and weak. Remember, when in motion on water, water pressure is trying to force the water rudder upward, thus defeating steering. The more you deflect rudder, the more upward force the water applies.
A J-3 with a single water rudder in a wind requires some technique. Frankly, most float pilots have been spoiled by double water rudders, because they never had to learn technique.
Some 1320s have had a second water rudder installed. Easy to do, though approval might be difficult….. But now you have a big sail of an airplane on minimally buoyant floats, and it is quite possible to wind up swimming. Which is why EDO only installed one rudder.
Find an instructor who knows some technique, and you’ll learn more.
MTV
Great time to learn one of float planes greatest tools that someday you will need to do in any wind speed
Sailing your cub backwards, easy, accurate and fun once you practice and get good
Glenn
"Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
Nose up elevator with just enough power to make the air rudder work some. Still.....don't expect to spin on a dime and get 5 cents change. Now operating on rivers a single rudder makes you choose the landing area and potential current/wind effects on steering wisely. Boats and floatplanes sail nicely.
Gary
I'm not a highly experienced seaplane pilot by any means, but most of my time is in a J-3 with 1320s and a single water rudder. Turning on the water is definitely the limiting factor even with the slightly enlarged single rudder. I often found I would have to make a left 270 with a touch of power to get going instead of a right 90.
10kts is a lot of wind for those floats. How big are the waves? I don’t think the tail would turn into the wind at idle, plus you’d be eating up the prop at idle or plow. Sailing would do the least damage, but you’d only get mostly downwind.
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1320s have a single water rudder, and are therefore challenging to effectively steer in more than mild winds.
If the wind is blowing shoreward, sailing is an option. If sailing with the engine shut down, you may have to restart to slightly reposition, and resume sailing again with the engine shut down.
One technique I use to overcome the wind, particularly if it’s blowing shoreward, and I wish to turn downwind:
Under power, turn (preferably to the right) “past the wind”, then once past the wind, reverse the turn fairly aggressively back to the left under power in the opposite direction.
Done right, and under moderate wind conditions, the combination of weathervaning, airflow over the rudder, turning momentum, and left- turning tendency will enable the plane to accelerate “past the wind” to the downwind position. At that stage, the plane is easily steered with a direct tailwind.
Two other ways to visualize this maneuver:
1. It’s basically a “button -hook” turn or a 30/210 (or 45/225) degree turn.
2. Imagine you’re in your plane, struggling to overcome the wind. The wind is from due north, and the shore is due south. You’re trying to turn left, toward the south, but no matter what you do, you can’t overcome the wind.
From your position on say, a 330 degree heading(because that’s as far as you’re able to turn), stick back, and plow turn to say, a 30 degree heading “on the other side of the wind.” Once there, stick still full aft, plenty of power, and full left rudder. As you pass through the north heading continuing the turn left, apply full left stick. This will put the right aileron down, and the wind will push against the top of the aileron, adding to the left turning force.
Keep the power up, the stick fully back and full left, and keep the turn coming. Once pointed directly downwind, neutralize the ailerons, keep the stick back, and keep the power up to keep pace with the waves. Adjust power as necessary to avoid burying the bows of the floats, but keep that forward (direct downwind) momentum going.
THIS is The Way.
On Glenn’s suggestion to paddle: Glenn is an experienced and skilled pilot. One of my favorite “online friends”. But I’ll part ways with Glenn on this point. I’ve found paddling to be utterly pointless and ineffective. I don’t even bother to carry a paddle on my floats. I’d sooner jump in the water and attempt to drag my plane swimming.
In actual fact, I’ve used the above technique and/or sailing to good effect. I’ve never been towed.
jh
Last edited by johnhefley; 02-04-2023 at 10:17 PM.
BC12D-4-85 liked this post
I've had 1320's on three floatplanes. With an aft load they can submerge the tails w/o some forward speed and nose up elevator. Keep some speed to turn as jh notes or suffer the consequences.
Gary
Good post except for this suggestion. When taxiing down wind with the elevators up, you are risking the wind getting under the tail with the result of burying the bows of the floats. This is particularly important with a plane which has small floats such as a J-3 on 1320s.
Perhaps you have had success with this procedure under some conditions. Teaching a novice student to do this could lead to a nose down upset or a roll over if and when he decides to turn into the wind. Once the bows start to submerge with an up elevator and a tail wind, engine power is your enemy. You are at the mercy of the elements. With the small single water rudder and strong winds it is difficult to keep the turn rate slow. A high turn rate will increase the centrifugal capsizing tendencies which exposes the undersurface of the upwind wing to lifting forces and submerges the downwind float. A strong gust of wind under the conditions as you describe could lead to a quick weathervane effect of the plane which produces strong capsizing forces.
Elevators should be down when taxing on the water with a strong tailwind while using minimum power. If using power and up elevator as you describe, the airplane speed will need to be reduced to safely turn around for docking or beaching. Turning around into the wind after taxying down wind as you describe can easily lead to an upset in an under floated single small water rudder seaplane.
If it is felt power is necessary for taxying downwind in strong winds, you are in sailing conditions.
The original poster who asked the question is a novice, as it also appears is his instructor. Remember, you can be a seaplane instructor with no more than 5 hours of seaplane experience from a SES flight school mill and an SES on your ticket. There are two students in this original scenario. One who thinks he knows the answers and the other who believes him.
NX1PA
Sky wagon is 100% correct. In a tailwind in my J-3 on 1320s, stick back is the way to go in nearly all conditions. In very rare cases, I’ll use stick forward to manage how the floats ride in the water, traveling downwind. As conditions worsen, and with either loss of directional control or if the airplane rolls dangerously in the waves, surrender is ultimately the smart move. Engine off, appropriate aileron for relative wind, let it weathervane, and sail it.
My most difficult scenarios involve wind blowing shoreward, or at an angle shoreward. Once conditions become unmanageable, and I’m sailing backward toward shore, I’ll ultimately accept that I may end up 50 yards upshore or downshore from my beaching target, and I await my opportunity to jump into the water to guide the plane back to target, and onto the railway cart.
There’s a “crossover point” in worsening conditions where risk of capsizing the aircraft is indeed a very real possibility. It’s a very scary place to be, and no place for a novice. “A man’s got to know his limitations”, so to speak. But he’s also got to know the limitations of his seaplane as well.
The OP indicated a 10 knot threshold of uncontrollability. That’s not a limitation of a J-3 on 1320s. But the cautions and techniques stated by skywagon should indeed be kept in mind as conditions worsen.
jh
Are the winds not strong enough in these conditions to keep the engine running at a low idle? In strong winds running the engine at low idle on one magneto with carb heat on, it is possible to control sailing into some very tight situations safely. With practice you would be amazed at places which are possible to sail into with complete control.
Also if taxying down wind, should you retract the water rudder, you are at the mercy of the wind with no possibility of doing anything. The airplane will weathervane .... right now. With all the hazardous capsizing effects.
Last edited by skywagon8a; 02-05-2023 at 08:10 AM.
NX1PA
Looks like I accidentally deleted my last reply. In my opinion, based on operating my J-3 where I live and fly, Lake Champlain:
I would not characterize J-3s as capable of precision sailing, engine on, or off.
In a J-3 sailing (particularly in strong winds), "close enough" is close enough.
Taxiing in strong tailwind in a 1320 equipped J-3, due to the single water rudder, sufficient speed is required to maintain directional control. That speed must be balanced with pacing your progress with waves coming from behind. 1320 equipped J-3s will reveal their limitations very quickly. And the inexperienced pilot should heed all cautions on this thread. Regardless of the pilot's experience, the aircraft's capability will be overwhelmed long before other aircraft types on floats.
But 10 knots ain't the limit.
jh
Last edited by johnhefley; 02-05-2023 at 11:59 AM.
Glad I didn’t read that last before I operated a 1320 equipped J-3 on Kodiak. Sailing power on worked for me. At the same time, I was working a Beaver on 4580s with the stock small water rudders. Same problems, same solutions.
That said, if I were the original poster, I’d find an instructor with some actual seaplane experience.
MTV
One of my 1320's had dual water rudders. Nice on a calm day or on rivers, but scary if fully deployed when turned in a wind. It would spin a circle in a second...too fast and with the stick back the floats aft of the rear spreader were under water quick. The first time it happens is the first time to unlearn that.
Gary
Try that around here and you my not like the results. The Coast Guard training for cold water immersion states that if you can survive the first few minutes in the water, you can then hope to survive the 20-40 minutes to hypothermic death.
One guy slipped off the dock beside his boat and about drowned. Healthy guy, but the cold water zapped his strength immediately. He had an inflatable Story Seas coat on that he finally inflated and had to wait for help to get out.
Paddles are essential if you like your wing tips and elevators.
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
When I was flying helicopters offshore out of Kenai, the cold water survival instructor made one comment that stuck with me - “a healthy person in the inlet without an immersion suit will not be able to participate in his own rescue after just a few minutes”..
One small thing to remember when going into cold water close your mouth tight and try to cover the nose and mouth before you hit the water. Good amount of people that drown do so because they gasp and suck water into their lungs. Been in lots of cold water, ten years of commercial diving year around.
Refresher
https://youtu.be/Wz3gy5XyaBo
Glenn
"Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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