AgCats & SuperCubs

Rules from my first flying job (circa: 1982) - Extended wing light frame 450 Cat in spray mode:



I was hired to fly a 1962 extended wing (into a B-model) “light frame” AgCat with a PW 985 spreading fertilizer. Few pilots wanted that job so it was a time builder for younger pilots trying to break in to better equipment. You would be flying at about this height over citrus trees, which meant you were out of the safety of ground effect and in line with power lines:



The fertilizer spreader’s increased drag, seen beneath this A-Model (short wing) AgCat meant running the engine at more manifold pressure so there was less power available to pull up and turn.



The early 1980’s were both a weird & amazing time to be a junior bird man. The WWII pilots were in their late 50’s to 60’s & still on the payroll, so you could learn a lot from them. But times were changing, turbine equipment was coming into the general aviation agricultural field. The WWII high time pilots were getting the turbines, and the junior pilots were getting the old cast off radials to learn with. A WWII pilot grew up with radials - knew everything about them there is to know and could listen to one and tell if it has piston slap, cracked cylinder or any number of things that signaled it was about to retire. New guys, unless they grew up in an operation with them knew none of that. Oddly, the WWII guys didn’t know the turbines very well, and that is what the young guys had studied extensively - so it was somewhat of a comedy waiting to be written about this time in aviation as far as I could see as we were all flying mismatched equipment but the older guys (of course) got the new equipment, naturally, because they had one thing we would never match: the raw flying skills and judgement from WWII.

The mismatch of equipment was hard on the new guys at this time though. A lot of us took off in airplanes and landed in gliders with predictable results. I landed two gliders myself and one resulted in being 3” shorter than I was then. I always felt safe in the AgCat though, I (not just me, anyone I ever talked to) knew as long as the engine ran that beautiful bird would bring me home and it always did, no matter what stupid thing I did with it. You just knew it would bring you back. With 4 ailerons it handled like a sports car or personal WWI fighter in relation to all the rest when lightly loaded and thankfully I was spreading a prilled product: 15-0-15 ammonium nitrate instead of a very heavy urea type fertilizer which we (I had a loader for big jobs) loaded in bags. I don’t know what they use now or if they still use it, but the good thing was it didn’t hang in the spreader like urea and some of the others did so you got light fairly quick. Prilled fertilizer:



New fields or orange groves were always surveyed by 2 pilots in the SuperCub so hopefully all power lines and obstructions could be double covered and noted on a field chart we had. Sometimes this led to uncomfortable situations, especially when directions to a grove weren’t clear or we flat missed something and vivid examples were being down on the deck with the cars and dodging semis while trying to read a street sign to get our bearings. That didn’t happen much, but often enough to make it uncomfortable. Since the big boss flew the SuperCub it was in immaculate condition engine wise, so at least that wasn’t much of a concern.

The AgCat itself had a safety feature built into biplanes that saved some of us from ourselves. When you pull up and make that hard turn into the wind it isn’t for show, it’s to get back down and put the product out as efficiently as possible: you’re being paid by the acre - not hourly. In looking back, it’s very easy to add a little stick pressure and stall - deadly at low level with a load. In the AgCat though, the top wing is flying at a different angle of attack than the bottom wing (on biplanes this is accomplished easily by adding washers or shims to the struts to whatever the engineers designed) and the top outside wing is pulling slightly more g’s than the top lower wing so it stalls first. The result: the 2 flying wings overcome the stalled (no lift wing) and the 1 flying lower wing and roll the airplane level. If you’re in a left turn the stick flies out of your hand and lands in the right corner of the cockpit with a loud bang. Of course you think you’re dead and wonder what happened but the airplane is flying level as if nothing happened - so back to the WWII guys to find out what the heck just happened? And then we pass that info on.

I see these slats being hung as a similar safety feature for the SuperCub as long as they are aerodynamically employed (not manual or electric). We all want to land shorter and take off faster, but that little bit of edge can make a huge difference in a tight turn and that bang when deploying like a Helio Courier or Rallye definitely gets your attention that you’re close to the edge. If I was still flying I’d definitely be hanging them on my airplanes. Helio takeoff (the CIA pilots used to practice this at a field I was at - it was amazing):



My flying job came to an end abruptly when the big boss said it was time to recover the tail of my airplane. We took our knives, cut the fabric and pealed it all off, revealing the fabric was the only thing that had held the tail together for my two seasons - the metal in most cases had been long gone. with only the slightest amount of it remaining as a skeleton. The Cat had served me well, but the Thrushes I flew had already let me down twice, and I took all that into account and decided there were better things for me to do . . .

flagold said:

In the AgCat though, the top wing is flying at a different angle of attack than the bottom wing (on biplanes this is accomplished easily by adding washers or shims to the struts to whatever the engineers designed) and the top outside wing is pulling slightly more g’s than the top lower wing so it stalls first. The result: the 2 flying wings overcome the stalled (no lift wing) and the 1 flying lower wing and roll the airplane level.

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This is called positive decalage when the top wing has a higher angle of incidence than the bottom more aft wing.

flagold said:

My flying job came to an end abruptly when the big boss said it was time to recover the tail of my airplane. We took our knives, cut the fabric and pealed it all off, revealing the fabric was the only thing that had held the tail together for my two seasons - the metal in most cases had been long gone. with only the slightest amount of it remaining as a skeleton. The Cat had served me well, but the Thrushes I flew had already let me down twice, and I took all that into account and decided there were better things for me to do . . .

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I had a Call-Air A-5 like that. The tubing clusters were hanging on the fabric. Those chemicals are mean. The Stearmans had better luck in that the fabric was wrapped around a cage which kept most of the trapped chemicals off the tubing. In this part of the country, all of the pilots and ground crew which I knew, succumbed to cancer except for the ones who crashed. I didn't do much (2 days worth) spraying, I only acquired the planes after the fact.

skywagon8a said:

This is called positive decalage when the top wing has a higher angle of incidence than the bottom more aft wing.
I had a Call-Air A-5 like that. The tubing clusters were hanging on the fabric. Those chemicals are mean. The Stearmans had better luck in that the fabric was wrapped around a cage which kept most of the trapped chemicals off the tubing. In this part of the country, all of the pilots and ground crew which I knew, succumbed to cancer except for the ones who crashed. I didn't do much (2 days worth) spraying, I only acquired the planes after the fact.

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Thanks for that addition. I couldn't remember that if you'd paid me. At this point things are getting a little fuzzy. Like you, looking back I was very fortunate in what I didn't do. The older guys were spraying in the new planes. I did fertilizer and liquid sulphur. None of them lived full lives (methyl parathion was the big deal for bugs) that I know of.

Off to eye surgery, 2 this coming week. Hopefully I'll be able to see well enough again to fly Mrs. Mattson to Walmart.

Thanks again.

As I recall methyl parathion was the chemical used a lot here as well as something called seven. All nasty stuff. The odor hung around the airport for years after the operation ceased.

I brought the last light frame AG Cat here from Georgia. Had to cut the wing extensions off to get it in my buddy's hangar. Sweet flying airplane, one of my favorites. Still remember what his face looked like when we took the lid off and he rode in the hopper.

Steve Pierce said:

I brought the last light frame AG Cat here from Georgia. Had to cut the wing extensions off to get it in my buddy's hangar. Sweet flying airplane, one of my favorites. Still remember what his face looked like when we took the lid off and he rode in the hopper.

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I have to say it was my favorite of all to fly.

As a former Marine, I had to smile when I read the first line under 'Hazzard Prevention'. Lol

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[FONT=&quot]Just got back from post op in Dothan. Got the doggie protector off. Pretty amazing, really. 20/15 for distance and 20/15 close. Yesterday I had what felt like sand in my eye all day, today that’s all gone. Just these infernal drops to deal with for the week and then surgery Monday for the left and go through it all over again. Some blur that comes and goes but Dr. McKinnley said it will simply get better and better over the next 10 days till totally clear. [/FONT]
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The surgery center called just before we got back to the cabin and scheduled the left eye so good to go.[/FONT]

It is no fun, I have had a wire pulled out of my eye, lens removal, lens implant, retina detachment, and a cornea transplant. I recently had a Posterior Vitreous Detachment in my other eye which really scared me till I went to the eye doc and he told me everyone will have one eventually. Really messed with me for a while since I only have useful vision in that eye.

Steve Pierce said:

It is no fun, I have had a wire pulled out of my eye, lens removal, lens implant, retina detachment, and a cornea transplant. I recently had a Posterior Vitreous Detachment in my other eye which really scared me till I went to the eye doc and he told me everyone will have one eventually. Really messed with me for a while since I only have useful vision in that eye.

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Steve
I had similar problem about six years ago. Eye doctors said I would learn to live with it. Drove me nuts as had this cloudy floater thing and would cross my vision at worst time such as on short final.

Anyway I found this doctor in California that removed floaters with a YAG laser.
It took a while to get nerve up to try him but after I did it was amazing. The clarity was like as a kid.
No more clouds in my eyes. Just occasional spec. My night vision improvement was huge.

He has now left California and has relocated to Dallas.
https://www.thefloaterdoctor.com/

i was concerned that the floaters would come back. Just a few did and don’t even think about them.
Only downside is that the treatment is expensive but knowing what I achieved it is the best money Ive spent in years.

Nearly all eye doctors will tell you that there’s nothing you can do but I can personally testify that there is.

cubpilot2 said:

Steve
I had similar problem about six years ago. Eye doctors said I would learn to live with it. Drove me nuts as had this cloudy floater thing and would cross my vision at worst time such as on short final.

Anyway I found this doctor in California that removed floaters with a YAG laser.
It took a while to get nerve up to try him but after I did it was amazing. The clarity was like as a kid.
No more clouds in my eyes. Just occasional spec. My night vision improvement was huge.

He has now left California and has relocated to Dallas.
https://www.thefloaterdoctor.com/

i was concerned that the floaters would come back. Just a few did and don’t even think about them.
Only downside is that the treatment is expensive but knowing what I achieved it is the best money Ive spent in years.

Nearly all eye doctors will tell you that there’s nothing you can do but I can personally testify that there is.

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I have a blob of floaters and the fluid bubble. It has gotten better and he said it should go away. He can surgically remove the bubble and floaters but since I only have one good eye recommended waiting to see. Last STOL contest I went to was right after it happened and didn't know what the issue was. I just know I was consistently missing my mark by 25 feet. That is my excuse anyway.

Nice thing with this guy is there is no surgery. Over in minutes and totally painless. Until you get the bill that is.

Reading through this I can maybe add on a couple topics. Here is my Dad's 1972 Thrush in about 1974 at West Point VA. He was helping his competition that had just purchased two new Ag Cats. Dad went to aerial applicator school that Ohio State Univ put on in 1964 when he was 44 years old. He was in the bulldozer business mainly and bought a Cut Back J-3 with a 125 hp Lycoming to start spraying in eastern VA. I remember mixing Toxaphene and DDT in a 55 gallon barrel when I was about 10. Dad also had a 17 yr old black kid named Tommy mixing for him. A few years ago I saw Tommy and he told about wanting a ride and Dad told him there was no place to ride. Tommy insisted he was riding so they got some goggles and Tommy stood in the hopper with the lid open. That would have been quite a picture. You have to look close but there are two Ag Cats in this picture.

Surgery center called, good to go for surgery on the left eye 7:30 am tomorrow. Vision on the right is simply amazing. Just want to get this thing completed now - at least I'm no longer taking off glasses that aren't there. Another kind of ag-pilot:


If anyone can ID the tree I'd appreciate it - we've heard catalpa (doesn't have those long bean things), hydrangea and more. You see the flowers - and it's covered with large caterpillars when they're out.

flagold said:

If anyone can ID the tree I'd appreciate it - we've heard catalpa (doesn't have those long bean things), hydrangea and more. You see the flowers - and it's covered with large caterpillars when they're out.

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That appears to be a Basswood, aka American Linden. They're blooming here now too, very fragrant and whole lots of bees.

Glad to hear of the surgery success!

marcusofcotton said:

That appears to be a Basswood, aka American Linden. They're blooming here now too, very fragrant and whole lots of bees.

Glad to hear of the surgery success!

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Exactly right. American Basswood. I'd never heard of it before so couldn't even guess that one. A guy also ID'd it on a fishing forum I used to be very active on (when it was active too).

Thanks on the surgery. I'll give a few thoughts on that for the rest of the guys - First, if you're thinking about it - don't wait - you're just cheating yourself out of good vision. What I did: I had the upgraded lenses put in, these don't require you to choose between a near lens in one eye, a far one in the other, or going with two far lenses an using glasses for close up work. I have 20/15 close, 20/15 far. Medicare pays for the standard lenses - if you want the upgraded lens you pay the difference, whatever that is when you do it.

What I wouldn't have done: have the two eyes done so close together. I only waited a week between which means I'm getting drops in both eyes right now X 4 times a day and one of them burns like a blowtorch. A real pain and the drops are the major deal in this - don't do them right and you won't get a good result. I would do 1 eye (your master eye) and then the next a few weeks later if I was to do it over.

The first eye - dramatic improvement - the second, not so much, just because the first eye is already taking care of the problem. So that's pretty much it - the surgery itself is no big deal at all.

Well - just in time for the topic on AgCats & SuperCubs a fellow classmate (graduated in the class ahead of me) sees Low Level Flying Techniques (Art & Science of Flying forum here) on YouTube and sends me what I haven’t had since we had the “storm of the century” flood my home in Hernando Beach (Fl): pictures. The few I had posted on that topic were the only ones that survived. The Ayres flight school at Albany Ga. where we learned those techniques was run by WWII IP’s that drifted in and out and taught us their various specialties as our abilities to absorb them grew. Chief Flight Instructor was Johnny Neill, former Flying Tiger & AAF P-40 instructor.


First few pics: Boeing Stearman 49291 - probably one of the most ubiquitous trainers in history, active through WWII into the 1980’s (perhaps beyond) continuously training. Status: disappeared from the fleet. If you run across airframe SN 75-1526 - that is it (regardless of N number now).





The office: 291 cockpit




I’ve forgotten what was prohibited but since it’s near the mp gauge I assume running over 36” - that was frowned upon as we generally took off with 30” to simulate a loaded airplane. Aerobatics was also prohibited since what we were learning stressed the airplanes enough.


You learned all the techniques in this or another Stearman and were checked out in it by Johnny Neill (hand propping 291 - how to):




If you made it past him, you could go on to run your next airplane (single seat) on ground runs (get the tail up, get comfy) and then take off in it. Of course you have the books, but if not you could quickly learn any airplane for basic flight from the airspeed indicator - it gives the parameters needed to know to get it up, cruise and down at a glance. The throttle quadrants on the radials were usually marked for max MP & T.O. RPM setting, so if the gauges worked that was a plus but not necessary in the real world (where a lot don’t). The only engine instrument absolutely needed was oil pressure. The Pawnee was first - very Cub-like, not intimidating and easy to take off and land. Then you demonstrated what you had learned in the field in 291 in the Pawnee with Neill on the radio (below) telling you (and everyone else) how you were doing (to high, to low, to fast, to slow, shut the spray off late, bounced off the air cushion into the field - and after all that he’d give you an attaboy maybe . . . (this really was no school for the ego sensitive at all). All of the airplanes could be in the field at once, and team spraying was done as well.




Jean Peterschmidt flying Pawnee:




After this you moved on to a succession of other airplanes in weight and went through the same routine with each - the next pilot for that airplane was your loader (so everyone was learning by the each one teach one tactic the WWII guys used to learn aircraft & flying routes quickly). The A-10 IP’s from Dothan did all this too, just like any other student which impressed us a lot.


Cessna Ag Truck







Gary Black (source of these pics) sitting in the Thrush that almost did me in:

"You learned all the techniques in this or another Stearman and were checked out in it by Johnny Neill (hand propping 291 - how to):"

Very surprised to see the hand prop demonstrator wearing a cap. I always removed cap and always taught others to remove cap before hand prop. Reason - if hat comes off it will be sucked towards the prop and the natural instinct is to reach forward to grab it.

Can I have been the only person who saw this as a risk?

Might be a good technique to remember. But, even I wouldn't dare to argue with that guy in the hat.

Web

wireweinie said:

Might be a good technique to remember. But, even I wouldn't dare to argue with that guy in the hat.

Web

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LOL. I think you're all pretty safe taking shots as I'm pretty sure he's gone now. There's a thunderstorm brewing here and I'll take no chances of a bolt from Mt. Olympus though.

Just in from post op on the left - looks good, but I got the booby prize of 3 more weeks of these infernal drops . . . Dang.

flagold said:

Just in from post op on the left - looks good, but I got the booby prize of 3 more weeks of these infernal drops . . . Dang.

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This is good news. Now can you get your basic med so you can burn some more avgas?

skywagon8a said:

This is good news. Now can you get your basic med so you can burn some more avgas?

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It is good news, for sure and if others are reading all this and need it - get it! It's worth it.

I wish the flying thing could happen, but after 18 years away - it's over. When I had that stroke in 2004 and flying abruptly ended I thought life was over, but it had really just begun. Since I'm a Captain X 2 (Merchant Marine Licensed as well), Connie and I took off in a trawler and did the whole "Final Voyage Of The Mischief" thing and had many other adventures on the water and out West in the gold fields and taught many thousands of kids in our how to shows. It's been a ride that all started with a stroke that I thought had ended productive life.

Many take this voyage on YouTube every year to this day, as if it's happening now. It really had an effect on people that took us both by surprise as all I thought we were doing was making movies on navigation, pilotage, how to handle ship & barge traffic, etc.