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Thread: Non current a&p privileges

  1. #1
    Superbill's Avatar
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    Non current a&p privileges

    I have an a&p certificate, but I'm not current. Does anyone know whether I could perform an annual condition inspection on my own experimental aircraft. My thinking is no, but I'd like to hear different!

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    cubdrvr's Avatar
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    No currency requirements that I'm aware of..........a&p doesn't expire.
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"
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    Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    No currency requirements that I'm aware of..........a&p doesn't expire.
    It does not expire but there are currency requirements. FAR Part 65.83...

    § 65.83 Recent experience requirements.

    A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his certificate and rating unless, within the preceding 24 months -

    (a) The Administrator has found that he is able to do that work; or

    (b) He has, for at least 6 months -

    (1) Served as a mechanic under his certificate and rating;

    (2) Technically supervised other mechanics;

    (3) Supervised, in an executive capacity, the maintenance or alteration of aircraft; or

    (4) Been engaged in any combination of paragraph (b) (1), (2), or (3) of this section.



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    Sort of nebulous - doesn't say five days a week, eight hours a day. If interpreted as "full time" it would be more onerous than the IA requirement of "actively engaged" -
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Also there are no record keeping requirements.
    N1PA

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    cubdrvr's Avatar
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    So (b) (1) is the minimum. As written there is no time requirement for maintenance performed. Inspect a spark plug every 6 months? And, as above, no logbook
    entries to make. Who's to know?
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"
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    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    There are, to the best of my knowledge, no recent experience requirements for the holder of a repairman certificate to perform a condition inspection on the aircraft authorized by that certificate. Seems illogical that an A&P would be held to a higher standard for performing a condition inspection on an owned aircraft.
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  8. #8
    Superbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    There are, to the best of my knowledge, no recent experience requirements for the holder of a repairman certificate to perform a condition inspection on the aircraft authorized by that certificate. Seems illogical that an A&P would be held to a higher standard for performing a condition inspection on an owned aircraft.
    Totally agree. Logic however doesn't necessarily correspond to faa regs. I have been having another a&p IA do the annual, but he is hung up on the owner maintenance thing. He's pretty sure that can't be legal.

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    jnorris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbill View Post
    I have been having another a&p IA do the annual, but he is hung up on the owner maintenance thing. He's pretty sure that can't be legal.
    Are you referring to owner maintenance on the homebuilt aircraft?? If so, your other IA needs to familiarize himself with 14 CFR 43.1(b0, which states....


    (b) This part does not apply to -

    (1) Any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate, unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness certificate for that aircraft;


    My emphasis added to highlight that Part 43 does not apply to a homebuilt aircraft since it has never been previously issued a different type of airworthiness certificate. This means that there are NO restrictions on who performs maintenance, repair, or modification. You don't have to be the owner, or the builder, or hold any type of FAA certificate in order to perform these functions.

    The condition inspection is required not by FAA regulation, but by the aircraft's specific operating limitations, which also call out who can perform the condition inspection. No IA is required since the inspection is not an "annual" but is a condition inspection. The holder of the repairman certificate for that specific aircraft, or any A&P mechanic (with or without IA) can perform the inspection. That's the ONLY time an FAA certificate of any kind is required.
    Joe

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    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    14 CFR 43 is a paradox. It says it does not apply to experimental yet some operating limitations specifically call out Part 43 Appendix D as being applicable.
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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    There are, to the best of my knowledge, no recent experience requirements for the holder of a repairman certificate to perform a condition inspection on the aircraft authorized by that certificate. Seems illogical that an A&P would be held to a higher standard for performing a condition inspection on an owned aircraft.
    Not illogical at all. Your repairman cert allows you to work on a specific aircraft. My A&P allows me to work on most anything that flies.

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  12. #12
    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    My A&P allows me to work on most anything that flies.
    Sure, that's why I qualified my comment with "a condition inspection on an owned aircraft."

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Also there are no record keeping requirements.
    Now that right there is FUNNY!

  14. #14
    Superbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    14 CFR 43 is a paradox. It says it does not apply to experimental yet some operating limitations specifically call out Part 43 Appendix D as being applicable.
    I guess this sort of thing is why he considers owner maintenance to be some kind of "gray area ". My contention is that if it's not prohibited, then it's allowed.
    Last edited by Superbill; 07-02-2022 at 02:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    14 CFR 43 is a paradox. It says it does not apply to experimental yet some operating limitations specifically call out Part 43 Appendix D as being applicable.
    Several years ago FAA changed all the Op Limits and excluded anything that was already in the regulations. Many regulations themselves have exclusions like “all civil aircraft” or “aircraft with Standard Certificates” and the Part 43 exclusion of aircraft with Experimental Certificates unless a different type certificate was previously issued for that aircraft”. Now if there is an exclusion, and FAA wants those requirements imposed they do it via Operating Limitations. You need look no further than equipment and instrument requirements. If you only want to fly VFR day, you don’t need any instruments in an Experimental airplane. As soon as you want to fly night or IFR, now the requirements of 91.205 kick in via Operating Limitations.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbill View Post
    I guess this sort of thing is why he considers ownervous maintenance to be some kind of "gray area ". My contention is that if it's not prohibited, then it's allowed.
    For Experimental airplanes (unless they had a different type of certificate previously), Part 43 does not apply! There is no certification requirement for the person performing maintenance, no log book entry requirements or any requirements for Maintenance! The Operating Limitations do require someone with a certificate to perform required inspections, and those inspections are required to be documented in the aircraft records.

    The big gotcha in all this is aircraft that were previously certified in a different category. If you have an airplane that had a Standard Certificate, Restricted Certificate, Limited Certificate . . . Then all the provisions of Part 43 still apply! You still need to record all the maintenance. Maintenance still needs to be done by Certificated persons, approved data still needs to be used for all major repairs and major alterations, and 337s still need to be filed! People that think the can go Experimental Exhibition and get out of having to do all that are wrong based on the plain language of 43.1.


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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    So (b) (1) is the minimum. As written there is no time requirement for maintenance performed. Inspect a spark plug every 6 months? And, as above, no logbook
    entries to make. Who's to know?
    This is a good point. I'm guessing that you'd have to be payed to check the spark plug at least. And it might be hard to argue that you checked that plug for 6 months straight. I realize that I probably could get away with it, but I'd prefer to have the law make some consistent logical sense.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    For Experimental airplanes (unless they had a different type of certificate previously), Part 43 does not apply! There is no certification requirement for the person performing maintenance, no log book entry requirements or any requirements for Maintenance! The Operating Limitations do require someone with a certificate to perform required inspections, and those inspections are required to be documented in the aircraft records.

    The big gotcha in all this is aircraft that were previously certified in a different category. If you have an airplane that had a Standard Certificate, Restricted Certificate, Limited Certificate . . . Then all the provisions of Part 43 still apply! You still need to record all the maintenance. Maintenance still needs to be done by Certificated persons, approved data still needs to be used for all major repairs and major alterations, and 337s still need to be filed! People that think the can go Experimental Exhibition and get out of having to do all that are wrong based on the plain language of 43.1.


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    Got it. It's eab.

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    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    For Experimental airplanes (unless they had a different type of certificate previously), Part 43 does not apply!
    Did you read the extract from my EAB operational limitations? If so, how do you reconcile the references to Part 43 Appendix D with your statement above?

    Part 43 Appendix D clearly is applicable to my EAB aircraft because the operating limitations say it is.

  20. #20
    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    Part 43 Appendix D clearly is applicable to my EAB aircraft because the operating limitations say it is.
    I checked the operating limitations for my Experimental Exhibition / Air Racing sailplane that were issued 20 years ago. The format is very different but the requirement to perform a condition inspection references Part 43 Appendix D using similar wording to my 2 year old EAB operating limitations.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    Did you read the extract from my EAB operational limitations? If so, how do you reconcile the references to Part 43 Appendix D with your statement above?

    Part 43 Appendix D clearly is applicable to my EAB aircraft because the operating limitations say it is.
    You are correct. The operating limitations are what makes that particular specific section of Part 43 applicable. This is why operating limitations are issued to aircraft with special (including experimental) certificates are issued. This is how the FAA makes certain specific regulations apply when they are exempted in the regulations themselves. So, 43.1 says that Part 43 is not applicable to your aircraft, but the operating limitations make that specific section apply.
    Joe

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