Thanks: 
Likes: Anyone know where i can buy/print a pa-18 checklist similiar to the cessna 172 one made by checkmate? The 172 one has all the emrgency stuff, v speeds, etc.
I started making my own but why reinvent the wheel? Will make my dpe happy
Anyone know where i can buy/print a pa-18 checklist similiar to the cessna 172 one made by checkmate? The 172 one has all the emrgency stuff, v speeds, etc.
I started making my own but why reinvent the wheel? Will make my dpe happy
DENNY liked this post
Not Pa 18 specific but simple and cheap. Stick it on the wing root in front of fuel gauge. https://www.sportys.com/fixed-gear-vari-prop-checklist-placard-2-7-8-in-x-5-in.html?mrkgadid=&mrkgen=27&utm_source=google&utm_ medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Smart_Shopping&creative=%7 BAdId%7D&device=c&matchtype=&mrkgcl=596&acctid=700 000001999345&dskeywordid=92700067107255390&lid=927 00067107255390&ds_s_kwgid=58700007109433166&ds_s_i nventory_feed_id=97700000007407630&dsproductgroupi d=296303633664&product_id=1912A&merchid=2857566&pr odctry=US&prodlang=en&channel=online&storeid=&devi ce=c&network=u&matchtype=&locationid=9033869&creat ive=524093874389&targetid=pla-296303633664&campaignid=13261768744&adgroupid=1228 15601677&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjsuBwovM9wIVsyCtBh32NQV XEAQYBiABEgIHL_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
DENNY
I have one that made our picky DPE happy. Just ask.
If you show up with a 16 page checklist, and have to read four items on the runway before brake release, my guess is he/she will not be impressed. You need CIGAR TIPS, with a couple embellishments to satisfy recent requirements, and you need to USE them.
Opinion.
Last edited by bob turner; 05-06-2022 at 08:25 PM.
Cardiff Kook thanked for this post
For a PA-18, I don’t see any need for more than
C - controls
I - instruments
G - gas
A - airplane trim
R - run up
S - safety
And
G - gas
U - undercarriage
M - mixture
P - prop
S - safety
Covers everything you need for 99% of single engine airplanes you are likely to fly. No need for any written checklist. Worst case, just make a placard on the panel. That’s what was in the Bellanca Viking from the factory that I used to fly.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Magic Mike Hatfield taught me that in 1963. I have used it ever since - but for a DPE, you have to write it on a piece of paper, and use it. You absolutely need a checklist for the preflight, after start, after takeoff, etc - but they do not have to be - indeed should not be - lengthy.
I will post my opinion of a good PA-18 checklist in a minute. Again, it works with the pickiest of DPEs, and they are mostly getting very picky.
PIPERCUB CHECKLIST - works for most light aircraft VFR TAKEOFF - "CIGAR TIPS"
Controls – FREE
Instruments – CHECKED
Gasoline – CHECKED/CAPS ON
Altimeter – SET
Runup – COMPLETE
Trim – SET
Instruments – DOUBLE CHECKED
(Prop - full increase)
Seat Belts – ON
Takeoff Check Complete
CLIMB CHECKLIST
RPM-CHECK
Climb Check Complete
LANDING
Gasoline - CHECKED
Mixture - RICH
Seat Belts – ON
Landing Check Complete
Memory items - entering or leaving a runway:
Strobe - Transponder - Mixture
ANCILLARY CHECKLISTS – J-3
PREFLIGHT
Fluids – CHECKED
Airframe - CHECKED
Paperwork – ON BOARD
BEFORE START
Beacon (if installed) – ON
Passenger Briefing - DONE
AFTER START
Oil Pressure – NORMAL
SHUTDOWN
Mags – OFF
Master – OFF
EMERGENCY CHECKLISTS
ENGINE FAILURE
Fuel – ON
Mags – ON
Carb Heat – APPLY
Restart – ATTEMPT
ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS
Smoke or other evidence of serious problem:
Master – OFF
FIRE –
Everything (fuel and electrical) OFF
Get on the GROUND
Evacuate
See how short? Memorize a flow for the emergency stuff, touch each control (or move it), recite it out loud as you do it, reach for the checklist, put your finger on it (hopefully in the right spot) and announce "Engine Failure Checklist complete).
Be religious about it, but don't add stuff.
I resisted at first, because like Dave I did it using the mnemonic. But there is wisdom in a short written checklist. For instance, the after takeoff checklist forces you to check the power output of your engine. After using that for a week, it will clue you in to whether you forgot the carb heat, or whether your mags need re-timing.
Also, I know only one pilot who has never forgotten a master switch on shutdown, and he isn't me.
All opinion.
I fixed the master switch after shut down, leave the strobe switch on all the time. If you get out and you see flashes, you left the master on!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Nearly everyone I have flown with, either as a passenger or as an instructor, does an inadequate control check.Originally Posted by bob turner
I use full, free, and correct sense. That requires moving the stick/wheel into all 4 corners and visually checking that each control surface moves in the correct sense. I suppose I do that because of years of flying gliders and after hearing of more than one accident that was caused by reversed controls due to in competent maintenance.
to check controls as was taught to me stir the pot. leaving the beacon on lets you and everyone else know the master is on and you are getting ready to crank
Agree, but a check list need not go into that kind of detail.
Put Avionics in there too
Gary
I like having of a checklist, but it needs pick the important stuff. I think the other things like seat belts, checking the controls, instruments etc don't really need to be on the checklist, they should be the basic stuff you do all the time
What I use, for landing and takeoff
Mags (both)
Carb heat
Fuel (both and look at the fuel gauges)
Flaps
Water rudder
Mixture
I fly floats for 99% of my flying and this sequence of checks is in the order ccw as they are installed in my PA18, its easy and gets the really important stuff.
Mike
Yes, but he needs a checklist for the DPE. Leave a control or seatbelt check off of that, and it might not pass.
Avionics? You mean like "Radio -ON"?
My philosophy is - if you cannot remember to turn the mags, master, or radio on, then you are going to have a safer than usual day - on the ground.
Like pre-program outbound radio freq sequence to reduce workload...or for quick return to land if emergency....like make sure they (coms-nav-transponder-GPS-intercom-squelch levels) are set for takeoff and especially noise levels. There's more to flying than turning on the radio Bob.
Gary
My experience with PA-18-180 used as glider tug was that the two important things before starting the tow after a shutdown/re-start were trim and mags. Far too easy with mag toggle switches to start on one and forget to turn on the other. I got into the habit of setting takeoff trim as I rolled out from the previous tow.
The things that get you are the things that are different from other aircraft that you fly. I think every other power plane I had flown before the PA-18 had a rotary mag/starter switch.
Sure, seat belt should be on the check list but, for the OP, don't just check your own. Ensure you also have the instructor, DPE, or passenger check theirs. Seat belts - my belts are secure, are your belts secure?
Last edited by frequent_flyer; 05-07-2022 at 08:07 PM.
Seat belts and passenger brief are part of SAFETY. You don’t need to spell out every detail for each step, just make sure all the steps are done. Just like the INSTarUMENTS step, that includes altimeter, heading indicator, oil temp and pressure, OAT if you are concerned about performance and likely other instrument checks if you are setting up your avionics for departure. A lot of sub steps, but again no need to list every single one.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
One could equally well argue that only one item is needed on a pre-takeoff checklist:
Takeoff checks - complete
But then you might need a checklist to confirm that you actually ran the single item checklist and so on in an infinite loop.
And that is exactly what all the checklist BS is about. There is a time and place for in-depth checklists. The move in the air carrier industry has been to shorten them. Even in the military, last NATOPS review on the C-20 we reduced the checklist size and eliminated the majority of the memory items. In something like a J3 or PA-18, checklists can be more of a distraction than a help.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
This is what I also use in the 18. On shutdown I use:
M- music
M- mixture
M- mags
M- master
Well, bullshit or not, you need a hard copy J3 checklist in your hot little hand when you show up for a checkride, and it needs to have at least one item for each phase of flight.
Sure, a shutdown checklist in a Cub is a joke, and even the DPE knows that. Still, you have to have one, and use it. Youmight even need an after landing checklist, but we got away without one.
A perspective on the CheckList. But first some Nomenclature is needed. let me call it a "List". For example, A "Before Take Off List".
I suspect the FAA wants the List to be performed as a DO-list.....not a Checklist. A DO list performed like a set of instructions that has been seen for the first time.
Read Item - Do Item.
Read Item - Do Item.
Read Item - Do Item.
If a Do-list is performed for an evaluator he can see and evaluate you and it makes judgment easy. It is tangible, Black and White, Pass - Fail.
An Alternator Failure Emergency Checklist might be a good time for us it as a DO-List. Read - Do, Read - Do.
For repetitious everyday normal flying, I like Flows as my foundation using a list as a backup. A before start Flow, an After Start Flow, a Before Take-off Flow, etc.
A flow is a logical path that touches all the things that get set, positioned, checked switched, or inspected. It might be left to right path, or a circular path, or maybe high to low. It's going to be logical for your cockpit. It is probably done silently, with intent, with carefully focus. Flows are peaceful when doing repetitions, like pattern work. A flow is a cub might take 5 seconds to perform if you take your time. (I've seen flows with dozens of items in transport aircraft. They take longer.) You feel as one with your ship when doing a flow.
After the Flow is performed, the list is checked. So now I can call it a checklist. It double checks that all items are in position and or checked. If the checklist were not referenced after the flow, everything would most certainly have been done, but you would flunk the check ride. A flow has less time for interruption. Interruption is a killer.
A List performed as a checklist after a flow is performed goes much faster than a list that is performed as a DO-List.
So a checklist has its place. Pursuit of excellence is cheated if we cant consider alternative proven methods, and we believe only one way is the safe.
I remember when the industry decided to differentiate between checklists and do lists. Seemed silly at the time, at least to me. Overcomplicating a simple idea. But I get it.
An alternator failure in a Cub is not an emergency, unless it catches fire or trashes the adjacent engine parts. I am sure a detailed procedure can be dreamed up - the only thing I can think of is turn the field off, and maybe turn the master off until you need to communicate.
For the Cub, when using my checklist, the walk-around is done one item at a time, because that's the way the FAA wants it done. The rest can be done either way - I teach using the mnemonic or flow, then touching or fondling the checklist, and yelling xxx checklist complete into the DPE's ear. As far as I can tell you can do it either way.
They will always be checklists to me - and NOTAMS will always be to airmen, since missions cannot read.
Pretty tough to beat CIGAR and GUMP with our birds. It has saved my ass more than once by running through it and making sure I was on the correct tank for take off and landing. In a pacer it can be the difference between a great flight and an engine out and stuffing it in.
I recently had occasion to study and take the written for a Ground Instructor rating. I don't remember where in that process I ran across it, but I did find a specific statement referring to this - to the effect that the FAA does not want checklists used as "do lists". In fact that very term was used. I recall it so vividly because it seems to go contrary to what 99% of the aviating public does and thinks - but supports what I do.
Much like you, I do the tasks first then use the list to verify ( or check) their completion. After all, it is called a checklist. I'd never heard the term "flow" but that works. I just remember being taught that if the airplane isn't usable without that piece of paper, it's pretty silly.
Nothing against checklists. Please continue to use them! They're a great way to verify that you're correct. But if you need them maybe you might give a thought to what would happen if it were lost.
Just my opinion and worth every penny you paid for it.
Simple has been better for me. Especially on floats with a cockpit full of mosquitoes on a flowing river with wind. Expedite the pre-flying cockpit flow then confirm as the situation allows
Gary
Before takeoff - abandon the fight until you find it. In flight - declare an emergency since you can't land without it. Ask for the controller to read you one while you copy unless you have also lost your pencil.
I survived over 3,000 hours in gliders with only mnemonic check lists. It seem to be working just fine in my experimental cub too. If I actually need to look at a checklist there is a set of them on the big TV thingy in the middle of the panel. Sometimes I use it to pass the time at the hold short line.
The only check list you can't do without is the one that says - run the checklist. That's the one people seem to forget.
Remember - Cardiff was looking for a checklist to use during a Private Pilot checkride.
Sure - use CIGAR and GUMPS - they cover everything and keep you out of trouble. But do not go to a checkride with a DPE and expect to pass unless you are religious about checklists.
The DPE I most recently worked with would flunk a student who did a walk-around without a checklist in hand. Three items were enough, but by golly, the paper had to be "in hand!"
Better yet> https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-...speech-feature
Let the phone do the talking while your fingers and eyes do the walking
Gary
When I got checked out in Beavers in 1979, Bill Fisk asked
what I used for a checklist: I told him GUMP. He calmly said not anymore you don't. I said ok; He told me to add 3 things and it would cover about anything.........
So he went on to add, after GUMP, flaps, Carb heat and Oil/ Pres&Temp. So total of 7. So I memorized it 40 odd years ago , and I NEVER push the throttle ahead : without checking those 7 things......... Same when turning base to final........... It worked for him for 65 years of flying, and served us well so far. He taught me how to "throw" a double bowline knot ( not tie), into a lenght of rope, and The merits of the Clove Hitch, and most of all that 7 item check list.
He said; now you use my checklist "pard" and it will never let you down............... That was 43 years ago; but I thought maybe, it could help some young pilot today?
Gas, Undercarriage,Mixture, Prop and Flaps, Carb Heat, Oil
Pressure/Temp...... I guarantee it.
Last edited by TurboBeaver; 05-10-2022 at 03:53 AM.
Here's one for you-- if I knew who originated it I would really like to credit them with a great effort -- should be modified / corrected for your situation -- Part 1:
SUPER CUB
Hobbs RECORD Control Lock OFF Fire Ext. & First Aid Kit CHECK Avionics OFF Switches OFF Throttle CLOSED Mixture ICO Fuel Gauges CHECK Flaps EXTEND 10 DEG. Rear Seats, Baggage Area CHECK
Passengers BRIEF Controls and Trim FREE & CORRECT Seat LOCKED Magnetos ON BOTH Carb. Heat COLD Fuel Selector ON LEAST FULL Throttle Ľ INCH Mixture RICH Beacon ON Master ON Avionics OFF Prime AS REQUIRED Brakes SET Yell "CLEAR PROP " Start IDLE 1000
AFTER STARTOil Pressure CHECK Avionics ON – CHECK OPS. Transponder STANDBY Ammeter CHARGING Brakes TEST Taxi TEST INSTRUMENTS
Position CHECK Brakes APPLY Throttle 1800 RPM Suction GREEN Electrics, Circuit Breakers FULL LOAD CHK Magnetos L – B – R – B Carb. Heat HOT Throttle IDLE Carb. Heat COLD Throttle IDLE 1000 Fuel Selector FULLEST TANK Instruments LEFT TO RIGHT Door, Window, Seat, Belts SECURED Controls FREE & CORRECT
AT RUNWAYMagnetos BOTH Carburetor Heat COLD Trim SET Fuel Selector FULLEST TANK Mixture RICH Primer LOCKED Master ON Lights AS REQ Flaps AS REQ XPDR ALT 1200 HDG Indicator CHECK / SET Take-off Time NOTE
Part 2:
AFTER LANDINGFlaps UP Carburetor Heat COLD Landing Light OFF Transponder STANDBY Trim SET FOR TAKE OFF Flight Time NOTE
Throttle 1200 RPM Avionics OFF Mixture LEAN TO CUT Magnetos OFF Carburetor Heat COLD Throttle CLOSED Master OFF Switches OFF Trim SET Controls LOCK & SECURE Hobbs RECORD
Airspeed 65 MPH Carburetor Heat ON Fuel Selector Valve OTHER TANK Fuel Quantity CHECK Mixture RICH Magnetos ON Primer IN & LOCKED
EMERGENCY LANDING W/O ENGINE POWERAirspeed 65 MPH (flaps UP) 60 MPH (flaps DOWN) Radio Call 121.5 MAYDAY SQUAWK 7700 Seats & Harnesses SECURE Mixture IDLE CUT-OFF Fuel Selector Valve OFF Magnetos OFF Master Switch OFF Door UNLATCH Wing Flaps FULL Touchdown 3 POINT
PRECAUTIONARY LANDING W/ ENGINE POWER Seats & Harnesses SECURE Wing Flaps 10° Airspeed 60 MPH Inspect Field 500’ AGL Circuit Height 1000’ AGL Radio Call 126.7 PAN PAN Avionics & Master OFF Wing Flaps FULL Airspeed 60 MPH Door UNLATCH Touchdown 3 POINT Magnetos OFF
Radio TRANSMIT MAYDAY on 121.5 MHz, giving location and intentions SQUAWK 7700 Heavy Objects (in baggage area) SECURE OR JETTISON Seats, Harnesses SECURE Wing Flaps FULL Power ESTABLISH 300 FT/MIN DESCENT Approach High Winds, HeavySeas -- INTO THE WIND Light Winds, Heavy Swells -- PARALLEL TO SWELLS Door UNLATCH Touchdown LEVEL ATTITUDE AT ESTABLISHED RATE OF DESCENT Face CUSHION at touchdown with folded coat Airplane EVACUATE through cabin doors. If necessary, open window and flood cabin to equalize pressure so doors can be opened Life Vests and Raft INFLATE
Cranking CONTINUE If engine starts: Power 1700 RPM Engine SHUTDOWN & INSPECT If engine fails to start: Throttle FULL OPEN Mixture IDLE CUT-OFF Cranking CONTINUE Master Switch OFF Magnetos OFF Fuel Selector Valve OFF Fire EXTINGUISH Fire Damage INSPECT
Mixture IDLE CUT-OFF Fuel Selector Valve OFF Master Switch OFF Cabin Heat & Air OFF Airspeed 100 – 110 MPH
Master Switch OFF Vents/Cabin Air/Heat CLOSED Fire Extinguisher ACTIVATE Avionics Power Switch OFF All Other Switches OFF If fire appears out and electrical power is necessary for continuance of flight: Master Switch ON Circuit Breakers CHECK for faulty circuit, do not reset Radio Switches OFF Avionics Power Switch ON Radio/Electrical Switches ON one at a time, with delay after each until short circuit is localized Vents/Cabin Air/Heat OPEN when it is ascertained that fire is completely extinguished
Master Switch OFF Vents, Cabin Air, Heat CLOSED Fire Extinguisher ACTIVATE
Landing Light OFF Navigation Light OFF SIDESLIP
Yikes!! It's a Cub !Sent from my VS988 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
Impressive. That's about triple what we used in the 737.
Again, if you need a checklist to turn on the mags and master, I do not want to be in the same airspace.
How about this:
Get in
Start engine (may need to be reversed if no electrical)
Go fly
Land
Shut down
Get out
Now you have a written checklist that should meet ACS BS.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
X2 If I had to use that list to fly to a cub I would be forced to take myself out behind the barn and kick my own A$$.
I am digging the GUMP+3.
Wow, that's a huge checklist. Maybe its value is for a review, but not a checklist to I would use for operations. Are you really going to do a checklist if there is an engine failure, I don't think so - this is stuff you need to remember. I use a 6 step checklist that hits on the stuff that can get you into trouble, carb heat on for take off, fuel valve not set correctly, flaps not set. Yes I have taken off with the carb heat on, flaps not set - could make a marginal takeoff a real problem in some of the high altitude and small lakes that I operate from.
The checklist to the left of my GPS was on my dash as delivered from Piper
Remember, These are the Good old Days!
The thing is, you cannot joke around on a checkride. The examiner knows it is a Cub, and knows it will fly just fine with CIGAR from memory. However, he will lose his DPE if you do not use a serious checklist.
But a long checklist - especially a long emergency checklist - is fraught with pitfalls on a checkride. You need, as one poster commented, a "flow" for the serious emergencies, followed up by the ability to place your finger roughly in the correct spot on the checklist, and state "[engine failure] checklist complete."
It is my opinion that there are only two emergency checklists required on the Cub - "Engine Failure" and "Emergency Descent" - the latter can be part of a "Fire" flow.
The entire checklist can then be on one side of an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet, laminated or loose.
When the checkride is over, you can do what you want, including using a checklist that tells you to turn the master and mags on, and depress the start button, if you want.
But if you do that on a checkride, be prepared to lose your place, or worse, fail to look out the window and maintain situational awareness.
There is a rumor afoot that one of my buddies (a generator of a checklist for the PA-18 only slightly longer than the one posted by Musket above) lost situational awareness recently, and now has to worry about a FSDO conference. I don't know for sure that the incredibly long and detailed before takeoff checklist was at fault, but suspect so, because the guy is a spectacularly good pilot with the possible exception of his OCD for detail.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks