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Thread: Trent Palmer’s Pilot certificate suspended for going around at an off-airport landing site

  1. #241
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Evel's jump site is (you can still see remnants of the ramp, and it will make you pucker up just looking at it) is within a mile or two of the bridge. Totally legal to leap off it, as long as you have a parachute anyway, not sure about the suicidally inclined, that may be illegal and they could get in big trouble. I do have to hand it to the city fathers, welcoming all base jumpers, I hear it is a world wide destination site for those so inclined, they rent motels, buy food, and then leave afterward (one way or the other), a perfect source of income for the city.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    Nah. Just find one that is more than 500 feet above a sparsely populated landable area. Quite a few here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_bridges
    The regs say 500' from a man made structure.

    Under or over, you need 500'.

    AS far as abandoned, it was still man made.

    moral of the story, if you are going to fly under a bridge, make sure you put your checker board rudder on and have your Tom Ford mask.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  3. #243
    SuperCub MD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    Here is a better reference for would-be bridge runners. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest_bridges

    To my mind one of the best bridge videos came from the British TV series "Piece of Cake" . It was flown by Ray Hana in his own Spit Mk IX, not CGI.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf3U...hannel=AlvaroM

    The whole TV series is, or was, posted to YouTube.
    Best is Jurgis Kairys under the bridge at Kaunas. Had to look it up, it's been a while, but videos are still out there. Don't know how to link it, but look it up if you have never seen it. Anybody can do it right side up.. He probably flipped inverted so if he hit the bridge it would be with the tires, safety first.

    Coast Guard had video of someone flying under the Big Mac not long ago, made the local news. I don't know if they ever found out who it was but it seemed like they really wanted to make a big deal out of it.
    Last edited by SuperCub MD; 05-10-2022 at 10:19 PM.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    ..........and, without ADS-B can the feds determine how far horizontally you are from said object?
    I agree, ads-b is for commercial operations.


    Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  5. #245

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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    The regs say 500' from a man made structure.

    Under or over, you need 500'.

    AS far as abandoned, it was still man made.

    moral of the story, if you are going to fly under a bridge, make sure you put your checker board rudder on and have your Tom Ford mask.
    Why helicopters are better than Cubs. Or use an ultralight.

  6. #246
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    Anyone else remember the video that made the rounds a few years ago,
    of some guy flying under a low bridge in a Yak or similar-- inverted?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  7. #247
    SuperCub MD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Anyone else remember the video that made the rounds a few years ago,
    of some guy flying under a low bridge in a Yak or similar-- inverted?
    That is Jurgis Kairys at Kaunas Lithuania I noted in the post above. Maybe someone smarter than me can find it and post a link.

  8. #248
    Grand Pooh Bah soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    I'd like to remind anyone that cares about privacy and tracking that there is a perfectly legal ADSB out solution where you cannot be tracked and you do not show up on flight trackers like flight aware or open adsb. That is with a good old mode C xponder and a 978 UAT ADSB such as a uAvionix tailbeacon or Garmin GDL 82. They also are the cheapest means of ADSB out compliance - but they don't work if you need to travel to Mexico - and likely won't work in Canada when they finally implement their mandatory ADSB. Also not in Europe. But the Bahamas and the Carribbean I think are okay.

    The TSO certification for the 978 beacons include the provision for "anonymous" mode so when you are squawking 1200 it transmit a blank N number and a random ICAO aircraft code (a new random one is generated every time you power up the aircraft). You can't be tracked because the ICAO code is not tied to your aircraft but you still show up as a an aircraft in the system to be avoided for traffic. It works great, for those of us who live under or need to operate inside mode C veils or airspace where ADSB is required. Now when you are squawking a xponder code, on a vfr or ifr flight plan with ATC services then it's sending your actual N number and your actual ICAO aircraft code. But in those situations you are not likely to run afoul of any of the type of BS being discussed.
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  9. #249
    G44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soyAnarchisto View Post
    I'd like to remind anyone that cares about privacy and tracking that there is a perfectly legal ADSB out solution where you cannot be tracked and you do not show up on flight trackers like flight aware or open adsb. That is with a good old mode C xponder and a 978 UAT ADSB such as a uAvionix tailbeacon or Garmin GDL 82. They also are the cheapest means of ADSB out compliance - but they don't work if you need to travel to Mexico - and likely won't work in Canada when they finally implement their mandatory ADSB. Also not in Europe. But the Bahamas and the Carribbean I think are okay.

    The TSO certification for the 978 beacons include the provision for "anonymous" mode so when you are squawking 1200 it transmit a blank N number and a random ICAO aircraft code (a new random one is generated every time you power up the aircraft). You can't be tracked because the ICAO code is not tied to your aircraft but you still show up as a an aircraft in the system to be avoided for traffic. It works great, for those of us who live under or need to operate inside mode C veils or airspace where ADSB is required. Now when you are squawking a xponder code, on a vfr or ifr flight plan with ATC services then it's sending your actual N number and your actual ICAO aircraft code. But in those situations you are not likely to run afoul of any of the type of BS being discussed.
    Does this also work for 1090 or just 978? I have a Garmin 345 in and out and would like to be untraceable. I have gone on to the FAA opt out site and I opted out however I do appear on some tracking sites but am now invisible on others I was previously visible on.

  10. #250
    Colorado-Cub's Avatar
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    Keep in mind you are still broadcasting Mode C, or even Mode S. If you are near a veil your radar location is easily overlaid the "Anonymous" ADSB signal showing your exact GPS coordinates.

    You are rarely if ever invisible to the FAA except a bit in the mountains, and often not actually anonymous to anyone except other air ADSB targets.

    You can write to the FAA and request your ADSB data not be provided to the public trackers. Of course the FAA can still see you, but at least you non-anonymous ADSB broadcasters can keep your travels off the public websites.

    (sorry for the thread drift)

  11. #251
    fancypants's Avatar
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    Anonymous mode is only available with UAT 978. It's not perfect, but it's your only option if you want to maintain some small amount of privacy while operating in rule airspace. You're never really "untraceable" as long as binoculars exist.
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  12. #252
    Colorado-Cub's Avatar
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    One last tid bit: I think the above is why the FAA gets so pissed off if you power cycle your transponder+adsb en route. Possibly it makes it harder for them to automagically correlate radar and ADSB track data into a singlular entry for your travels, which in turn flags the hell out of you in their systems and sometimes results in a nasty-gram.

    https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...rmance-monitor
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  13. #253

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    Anonymous mode is not anonymous. Seems to me there was a lengthy thread on this some time ago. Maybe I am thinking of BCP.
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  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorado-Cub View Post
    You can write to the FAA and request your ADSB data not be provided to the public trackers. Of course the FAA can still see you, but at least you non-anonymous ADSB broadcasters can keep your travels off the public websites.
    This only works for sites that use tracking data sourced by FAA. There are other public ADS-B tracking sites that use their own network of ADS-B ground station receivers. These sites don't depend on any FAA ADS-B data and will show your ADS-B data whenever your aircraft it is range of one of their networked receivers.

    e.g. https://globe.adsbexchange.com/
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  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    This only works for sites that use tracking data sourced by FAA. There are other public ADS-B tracking sites that use their own network of ADS-B ground station receivers. These sites don't depend on any FAA ADS-B data and will show your ADS-B data whenever your aircraft it is range of one of their networked receivers.

    e.g. https://globe.adsbexchange.com/
    Yup, there is indeed a gap there but I didn't want to get off into the weeds.

    I know, I know. It is for our safety:

    Für euer sischerheit.
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  16. #256

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    Quote Originally Posted by 180_jeff View Post
    Anonymous mode is not anonymous. Seems to me there was a lengthy thread on this some time ago. Maybe I am thinking of BCP.
    Based on my observations on both FlyQ and ForeFlight, even in Anonymous mode, the ADSB still spits out your N# and ICAO code for about the first 5 minutes of flight. Anyone that wants to follow the breadcrumbs back can still get your N#.


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  17. #257
    fancypants's Avatar
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    dgapilot, I'm betting you've got a uAvionix sky/tail beacon. There was a firmware update that was supposed to help with that, but I think you can still encounter that behavior when it's asked to transmit prior to having a GPS fix. The Garmin GDL 82 doesn't seem to have this problem. Happy to discuss the theoretical and practical anonymity of anonymous mode in a separate thread if there's interest. I still use it when I have to and believe it does provide a worthwhile level of anonymity.
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  18. #258

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    Quote Originally Posted by fancypants View Post
    dgapilot, I'm betting you've got a uAvionix sky/tail beacon. There was a firmware update that was supposed to help with that, but I think you can still encounter that behavior when it's asked to transmit prior to having a GPS fix. The Garmin GDL 82 doesn't seem to have this problem. Happy to discuss the theoretical and practical anonymity of anonymous mode in a separate thread if there's interest. I still use it when I have to and believe it does provide a worthwhile level of anonymity.
    Certainly better than not having some level of privacy. I just believe you should be able to turn it off “legally” when not in rule airspace.


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  19. #259
    Colorado-Cub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Certainly better than not having some level of privacy. I just believe you should be able to turn it off “legally” when not in rule airspace.
    Agree 100%.

    Many of us were very vocal saying that very thing to no avail.
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  20. #260

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Based on my observations on both FlyQ and ForeFlight, even in Anonymous mode, the ADSB still spits out your N# and ICAO code for about the first 5 minutes of flight. Anyone that wants to follow the breadcrumbs back can still get your N#.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Not to thread drift, but someone used my N# last year, when my Cub doesn’t even have ADSB nor an electrical system. Identity theft?
    Last edited by AKjurnees; 05-12-2022 at 05:33 AM.

  21. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKjurnees View Post
    Not to thread drift, but someone used my N# last year, when my Cub doesn’t even has ADSB nor an electrical system. Identity theft?
    How about an airways use tax bill from a South American country?
    Or a sales tax bill from California and another from Florida?
    Or a fuel bill from St Louis for jet A?

    All of the above for an airplane that had not been out of New England for years. The one in my avatar.
    N1PA
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  22. #262
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fancypants View Post
    dgapilot, I'm betting you've got a uAvionix sky/tail beacon. There was a firmware update that was supposed to help with that, but I think you can still encounter that behavior when it's asked to transmit prior to having a GPS fix. The Garmin GDL 82 doesn't seem to have this problem. Happy to discuss the theoretical and practical anonymity of anonymous mode in a separate thread if there's interest. I still use it when I have to and believe it does provide a worthwhile level of anonymity.
    The tailbeacon will show your tailnumber until your transponder is pinged and the tailbeacon reads it as squawking 1200.
    You can hit the ident button on the txp shortly after powering up your avionics & the tailbeacon will then show anonymous.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  23. #263
    Grand Pooh Bah soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    Mode C transponders do not transmit anything other than your altitude, which is encoded in Gilhem (grey) coding and your squawk code (1200). So unless you talk to ATC and get a specific squawk code or someone visibly with binoculars sees your N-number, there is NO way to track you. Only Mode S transponders transmit your ICAO code which is the only thing that can uniquely identify your plane. It is true that the anonymous mode does transmit your actual ICAO code for a few minutes - but then it will switch to blank N and a random code so long as you wait a few minutes before airborne, there is no way to identify you. All radar is is a dot on a screen. They don't know who you are until you tell them and they give you a code.

    Think about it. If there was a way to transmit your individual N number from Mode C, you wouldn't even need the squawk code. You have to enter the code ATC gives you so they can tell who you are.

    If you have a mode S or 109ES xponder, you can opt out but that only protects you from the faa database - the 3rd parties can still get your ICAO from the direct air-to-air transmissions and correlate it through other means to track you. You can opt into a system that groups your ICAO codes in with a provider - like foreflight. But the FAA does always know who you are if the public does not.

    UAT anonymous mode is not perfect. But short of staying out of ADSB areas, it's the best option if this sort of thing matters to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colorado-Cub View Post
    Keep in mind you are still broadcasting Mode C, or even Mode S. If you are near a veil your radar location is easily overlaid the "Anonymous" ADSB signal showing your exact GPS coordinates.

    You are rarely if ever invisible to the FAA except a bit in the mountains, and often not actually anonymous to anyone except other air ADSB targets.

    You can write to the FAA and request your ADSB data not be provided to the public trackers. Of course the FAA can still see you, but at least you non-anonymous ADSB broadcasters can keep your travels off the public websites.

    (sorry for the thread drift)

  24. #264
    Grand Pooh Bah soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    Unless you use UAT anonymous mode which transmit blank/random data. Most of these ground receivers are homemade single band radios only listening to 1090 anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    This only works for sites that use tracking data sourced by FAA. There are other public ADS-B tracking sites that use their own network of ADS-B ground station receivers. These sites don't depend on any FAA ADS-B data and will show your ADS-B data whenever your aircraft it is range of one of their networked receivers.

    e.g. https://globe.adsbexchange.com/

  25. #265
    Grand Pooh Bah soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    I think you drew the wrong conclusion from that thread. As with anything technical - it depends. It's a shade of gray. Someone has to work quite hard to figure this out and correlate your real ICAO code to your freshly generated pseudo-random number generated code. Adjusting your startup position by just a few feet and hitting the ident button, and not living close to a ground transceiver from the FAA - you have quite a lot of privacy. You don't live in a perfectly binary world where things are true or false.

    Here's that thread if anyone wants a lot more detail and analysis here:

    https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/ads-b-privacy-23944

    Quote Originally Posted by 180_jeff View Post
    Anonymous mode is not anonymous. Seems to me there was a lengthy thread on this some time ago. Maybe I am thinking of BCP.
    Last edited by soyAnarchisto; 05-12-2022 at 07:17 PM. Reason: spelling
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  26. #266
    Grand Pooh Bah soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    Hit your ident button when you power up if you have the uAvionix tailbeacon, and it will send out the 1200 code immediately. If you have a Garmin GDL 82, it will always interrogate the transponder before ever transmitting so that's not an issue. And if you are like me, in a very busy airspace - my transponder is constantly being pinged - even on the ground. It's just a few seconds before the thing syncs up with the 1200 code.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Based on my observations on both FlyQ and ForeFlight, even in Anonymous mode, the ADSB still spits out your N# and ICAO code for about the first 5 minutes of flight. Anyone that wants to follow the breadcrumbs back can still get your N#.


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    Quote Originally Posted by soyAnarchisto View Post
    I think you drew the wrong conclusion from that thread. As with anything technical - it depends. It's a shade of gray. Someone has to work quite hard to figure this out and correlate your real ICAO code to your freshly generated pseudo-random number generated code. Adjusting your startup position by just a few feed and hitting the ident button, and not living close to a ground transceiver from the FAA - you have quite a lot of privacy. You don't live in a perfectly binary world where things are true or false.
    You have zero privacy. Don't want to hijack this thread with an ADBS discussion. But there are people out there whose hobby it is to collect and disseminate this data on the public side and on the gov't side the FAA knows who you are along with other three letter agencies. There was a whole presentation a couple of years ago on socialflight with two guys from the FAA ADBS office and two guys from Bendix/King and they showed how it is done.
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  28. #268

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    Was just watching a YouTube video of several planes flying in formation. as best i could tell, only the lead plane was squawking/ squitting. ( formation training manuals say to turn off transponders if you can, but i don’t know what that means in practical terms.)

    in mid flight, the planes split up and went their own way. wonder if plane #2 just switched on his transponder? i’d guess that would freak somebody out in FAA land. wonder what happened? this was in busy LA airspace, not in the boonies.

  29. #269

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    Last I heard glider pilots were unable to get permission to turn off transponders in flight in low threat areas, intent is to save battery power on long flights. If the FAA won't let glider pilots turn off transponders they ain't going to let anybody else do it.
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  30. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by arborite View Post
    Was just watching a YouTube video of several planes flying in formation. as best i could tell, only the lead plane was squawking/ squitting. ( formation training manuals say to turn off transponders if you can, but i don’t know what that means in practical terms.)

    in mid flight, the planes split up and went their own way. wonder if plane #2 just switched on his transponder? i’d guess that would freak somebody out in FAA land. wonder what happened? this was in busy LA airspace, not in the boonies.
    In formation flight, lead is expected to squawk, others in formation squawk standby. That is SOP, and FAA approved. Break formation, all ponders and ADS-B come on.

    MTV
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  31. #271
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    I would like to attend the Fly -in you are ‘having’, featuring ,,,, Giant 1/2 and 3/4 and 7/8 scale RC models. Cubs to Great Lakes, Extra 300. B25.
    Jay Pratt
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  32. #272
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    FWIW my airport recently subscribed to a service called VirTower.

    Virtower™ | Airport Operations Tracking System

    Basically Virtower provides tracking info into/out of/around the customers airport, for a fee of $500 a month.
    The airport manager was bragging about it to me yesterday, & showed me a screen shot with a bunch of radar tracks.
    He told me that one reason for getting this information was to identify aircraft who were not following our noise abatement procedures,
    or were being reported by airport neighbors as "noisy".
    I asked him to identify my flights, and he couldn't understand why my tail number didn't show up--
    until I told him about the anonymous setting on my ADSB.
    Maked me glad I bought a 978UAT.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  33. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    FWIW my airport recently subscribed to a service called VirTower.

    Virtower™ | Airport Operations Tracking System

    Basically Virtower provides tracking info into/out of/around the customers airport, for a fee of $500 a month.
    The airport manager was bragging about it to me yesterday, & showed me a screen shot with a bunch of radar tracks.
    He told me that one reason for getting this information was to identify aircraft who were not following our noise abatement procedures,
    or were being reported by airport neighbors as "noisy".
    I asked him to identify my flights, and he couldn't understand why my tail number didn't show up--
    until I told him about the anonymous setting on my ADSB.
    Maked me glad I bought a 978UAT.
    We do this for free here with a Raspberry PI, but not for noise just to get an idea of usage.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  34. #274
    Grand Pooh Bah soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    On both 978 and 1090?

    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    We do this for free here with a Raspberry PI, but not for noise just to get an idea of usage.

    sj

  35. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by soyAnarchisto View Post
    On both 978 and 1090?
    Absolutely. Just takes two receivers. If you have ever looked at the Stratux setup it's the same basic hardware using open source software.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
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  36. #276
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    I dunno if VirTower tracks both 978 & 1090, I would assume so.
    But although close by, my airport is not within ADSB "rule airspace" so not everyone who flies in has ASDSB.
    So I'm sure lots of aircraft aren't showing up.
    A waste of (public) money that IMHO could be better spent on airport maintenance, etc,
    but what the hell-- it gives the airport staff something to ooh & aah over.
    Hopefully they won't actually start contacting people to raise hell about them flying their pattern too low or whatever.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  37. #277
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    Faa records and stores all flight data in controlled airspace and 978&1090 contacts. When your 978 initially pings a tower that tail number is stored and can be connected to a anonymous flight. So no,it is not setup for anonymity on 978.

  38. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Formandfunction View Post
    Faa records and stores all flight data in controlled airspace and 978&1090 contacts. When your 978 initially pings a tower that tail number is stored and can be connected to a anonymous flight. So no,it is not setup for anonymity on 978.
    I was told by uAvionix that hitting the ident button on your transponder "pings" your Tailbeacon with a 1200 squawk,
    after which it will send out an a anonymous ID.
    On the ground, at my airport anyway, not much chance of ATC reading that momentary non-anonymous code.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  39. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    In formation flight, lead is expected to squawk, others in formation squawk standby. That is SOP, and FAA approved. Break formation, all ponders and ADS-B come on.

    MTV

    This could also throw a flag too. For example, I know of a certain aeroshell T6 team that did that from Point A to Point B. When one of them flew from Point B back home by themself, with transponder set to ALT they got a call asking how they got from point A to point B.... The person calling had no idea they were a professional airshow team member. He was just calling based on a computer generated report of people who may have broken the rules....In other words, they know when you have moved the airplane from its last known ADSB landing point to another point without ADSB...
    Thanks Colorado-Cub thanked for this post

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    This could also throw a flag too. For example, I know of a certain aeroshell T6 team that did that from Point A to Point B. When one of them flew from Point B back home by themself, with transponder set to ALT they got a call asking how they got from point A to point B.... The person calling had no idea they were a professional airshow team member. He was just calling based on a computer generated report of people who may have broken the rules....In other words, they know when you have moved the airplane from its last known ADSB landing point to another point without ADSB...

    We've done a few formation flights since ADS-B, and I specifically inquired of ATC if this procedure is still required. Yep. It was interesting to note last year that EAA specified that Transponders should remain ON while close to Airventure.....doubtless due to ADS-B. In past procedure was transponders off within some specified distance.

    MTV
    Thanks Colorado-Cub, Anzack thanked for this post

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