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Thread: PA12 flaps

  1. #1

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    PA12 flaps

    I am rebuilding my PA12 and would like to install flaps but have not had any luck calling or emailing Ron Sullivan to see if his STC is still available. Does anyone know if he is still selling it. Or is there any body else with an STC for the flaps? Thanks Jerry

  2. #2

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    Univair still lists Ron as owning the flap stc,at 907-345-4630. If that doesn't work you might check with crosswinds in AK
    Staying alive in an airplane has a lot more to do with mastering ourselves than mastering the aircraft.
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    skukum12's Avatar
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    Didn't his daughter take over the STC?
    "Always looking up"

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Does anyone in Maine know what may have happened with this organization in Waterville? Perhaps someone has a copy of the installation instructions?
    This flap installation is approved on the type certificate, so would only be a minor alteration. No STC required.

    TC A-780
    ITEM *602.
    Flap installation installed in accordance with Mainair, Inc. (formerly Marden Airways, Inc.), Waterville, Maine, PA-12 Flap Kit No. 1000-M and Installation Instructions dated January 22, 1949.
    +14 lbs. (+39")
    N1PA

  5. #5
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Pete,
    That Marden Airways mod was first flaps on PA 12's, the Maine Warden service had them installed on 5 new Cruisers. Howard Lambertson headed the project with the factory. And I am pretty sure; it was a package provided by Piper with all PA 14 factory pieces. So all the parts are different than a standard modern conversations using PA 18 parts?? ( 14 flaps are bigger than 18 )So if NONE of the 14 stuff is available; not sure how that would fly. It even included the" front seat" that had flap handle on WRONG side for a 12..... Cable routing is different as well, Just a thought.
    E
    Last edited by TurboBeaver; 04-23-2022 at 11:22 AM.

  6. #6

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    Buy PA14 flaps and all the associated parts from Univair. They were designed for that wing.

  7. #7
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Well that's a possibility Paul ! Great idea. But I bet that would be VERY spendy way to do it. But certainly make a very nice conversion!

  8. #8
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Earle,
    If someone has those drawings, perhaps the parts could still be procured from or through Univair as Paul suggests? It's having the paperwork in hand which would be the key.
    N1PA
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  9. #9
    supercrow's Avatar
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    I am with Paul and Pete. If parts are available install per the instruction and make a log book entry. Done deal. They are a couple inches longer inboard but don't require any changes to the aileron. There is one here on my pond that I take care of that was one of the original conversions done by those standards. Ranger Rob on this site is the owner. I will check to see if he has the install instructions. I have been through the logs, but can't remember. His flap handle is on the left side where it belongs and I would not consider that a major issue to do.
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  10. #10
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Good deal Reid, if you can't find em I am pretty sure Turnbull has that paperwork.....
    E
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  11. #11
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Reid, If you can find those instructions, perhaps sj could post them in the Tech Articles section? It would be a shame for them to disappear altogether.
    N1PA
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  12. #12
    supercrow's Avatar
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    Good Idea Pete. If he has them we can do that. Will look into it.

  13. #13
    supercrow's Avatar
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    Contacted Rob and he will check today to see if he has anything.

  14. #14

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    Univair has the drawings of a PA14 wing, flaps, and required parts. I think they sent me a copy years ago when I bought my set, but I can’t seem to find it. I’ll keep looking.

    Ask Univair for the drawings and you might be able build your own out of PA20/22 ailerons or something similar.

  15. #15
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    Ask Univair for the drawings and you might be able build your own out of PA20/22 ailerons or something similar.
    That would be useful. However a copy of the following would still be required "PA-12 Flap Kit No. 1000-M and Installation Instructions" since the type certificate refers to "Flap installation installed in accordance with Mainair, Inc. (formerly Marden Airways, Inc.), Waterville, Maine, PA-12 Flap Kit No. 1000-M and Installation Instructions dated January 22, 1949."

    Key words:
    in accordance with
    N1PA
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  16. #16

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    Is Marden the same company as the one that had the flap STC? Wasn’t it called “day for night” or something like that?

    Does anyone know if the Marden flap installation calls for original PA14 flaps or the PA18 flaps that the “day for night” STC calls for?

    And if you had the PA14 wing and flap drawings you probably wouldn’t need installation instructions.

    So much for my New Years resolution/promise not to post anymore. Everyone please remember; I am frequently wrong!!!
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  17. #17
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Marden was the flying service in Waterville Maine back in the 40s. This approval preceded the STC process. Day and Night is or was an outfit in Alaska which did modifications among other things.
    N1PA
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  18. #18
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Pete,
    We have located the Marden Airways documents required
    for the flap modification. I will see if we can get them to SJ to list in tech section as you requested.
    E

  19. #19
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    That's great news Earle. That will open up a lot of opportunities for the PA-12 owners who would like to install flaps.
    N1PA
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  20. #20
    supercrow's Avatar
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    Good deal, Earle. Rob doesn't have them.
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  21. #21
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Gotcha covered, will get this rolling for the boys interested in going down that path. Hope it helps some on future projects.
    E

  22. #22

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    Thank you for locating those! Hope to add flaps to mine in the future.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  23. #23

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    Dakoda cubs sells PA 14 flaps, hangers and they are PMA, I know because I bought a set.
    I am in process of deciphering the notes on the Marden drawings, having a hard time with them as my copy is so faint.
    I am using vellum over the drawings and using a .005 ink pencil to trace by dot method, been working on them for months.

    If you get a good copy of the notes I would like to have a copy.
    Ken
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  24. #24

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    Could someone pm me a copy or post a copy to this thread?
    Thanks.
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  25. #25

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    Kahles56: Did you buy a kit that includes all the necessary parts like the flap hangars, false spars, bellcranks and pushrods, and control cable standoffs? The proper placement of each is critical for aileron cable/flap bellcrank clearance and operation.

    Aren’t there some flap installation drawings out there that incorrectly show where the holes are to be drilled in the rear spar?

  26. #26

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    The answer is yes
    My kit from Dakota includes flaps, hangers, false spars, bell-cranks, pushrods.
    Control cable standoffs--? cannot remember,

    My understanding is there are multiple ways to run cables and bell crank placement as well as placement of hangers. This I have gathered from different posts on this site.
    That said, the Mardin drawings control the placement and location of most of the parts. placement of supporting structure is imperative to get correct so to allow full use of flaps.
    This means that.
    1 you almost have to have wings on the aircraft to install correctly.
    2. In my case the wings will not have any fabric... minor damage must be repaired as well as removal of mud dobber nests.
    3. location of the cable runs is of upmost importance due to interference of structure and wire routing.
    3. some of the problems can be mitigated with additional pullies to correct greater than 5- 15-degree cable run angles.
    4. Cable runs must align with existing pullies and new pullies to be added per drawings to fuselage, which is a double pully that routs cable over rear seat and goes down and behind the back seat at a sharp angle.

    This all said,
    I have been redrawing the plans to be able to read them as some areas are very faint.
    The copy I have is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy.
    Fine detail is lost when this occurs.
    I have been able to recapture most of the detail pertaining to hardware but some of the notes just are not there to recreate.
    That is why I posted a couple of days ago.
    I have found that taking pictures of plans and posting the pictures is of great help because the camera captures details that a copy machine will not capture.
    I would love to have a good set of pictures of the plans that have been found so I can finish redrawing the plans.
    About 8 pictures per sheet works great and includes overlap of areas. That gives the best detail.

    PS, thanks to all who have helped me prior to this in obtaining the copies that I have.
    Now if the newly discovered set could just be photographed........nirvana.
    Ken

  27. #27

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    What drawings does Dakota Cub use to build wings? Won’t they or Univair share a copy of their drawings?

  28. #28

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    I purchased PA -14 flaps and supporting hardware.
    I have to use the Mardin plans to install due to the flap seat/handle and cable routing.
    The flaps are PMA flaps made from piper drawings.
    From the Marden plans I have the plans call for PA-14 flaps and you get this from the size that they are on the plans.
    I sent you a PM
    Call me.

  29. #29
    flybynite's Avatar
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    How long are the -14 flaps? Does anyone have the print specifically for the -14 flap?

    Univair lists a different part number and prices for -14 and -18 flaps.

    Dakota Cub says they have flaps for a -18, but not a -14.

    I purchased a flap kit from Dakota a number of years ago. The flaps were pma'd for a -18 and 62.5" long as specified in the Sullivan STC.

    Regarding routing of cables around the bellcrank and pushrod for actuating the flaps on the -12, the -14 wing drawing (just purchased from Univair) shows the same standoff made of phenolic for the aileron balance cable that the Sullivan STC shows. As far as I can see from the drawing, the forward aileron cable is routed under the bellcrank through a fairlead.


    I believe these are pics of the Marden install of the flap handle on a -12 seat

    http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...l=1#post555976

    The never-ending drama regarding flaps on a -12 continues...

  30. #30
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    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	61564Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	61565 Original Marden flap handle configuration on our 12...

  31. #31
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    I think �� you will find that is simply a PA-14 front seat, and part of the package that the Piper factory suppled in the " conversion kit" (all PA-14 parts)THEY put togeather for "Marden Airways" modification. Had Piper ever installed the larger 0290D2 engine on the 12/14 series airplanes they would have been wildly popular, and stayed in production for many years longer than they did.
    Good Luck of the projects, here is our Cruiser with a
    160hr SMOH 0290D2.
    EClick image for larger version. 

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  32. #32
    skukum12's Avatar
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    Flap handle on the right side? Gonna need quick hands.
    "Always looking up"

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    Colorguns's Avatar
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    I need to get the drawings copied and posted for the Marden flaps from Piper.

    Doug


    Well I found everything. Prints - 2 of them with the parts listings, 337, and the drawings to put them installed.

    Flap handle is on the left side and it uses the -18 seat in my drawings.
    Last edited by Colorguns; 06-29-2022 at 07:46 AM.
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  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by flybynite View Post
    How long are the -14 flaps? Does anyone have the print specifically for the -14 flap?

    Univair lists a different part number and prices for -14 and -18 flaps.

    Dakota Cub says they have flaps for a -18, but not a -14.

    I purchased a flap kit from Dakota a number of years ago. The flaps were pma'd for a -18 and 62.5" long as specified in the Sullivan STC.

    Regarding routing of cables around the bellcrank and pushrod for actuating the flaps on the -12, the -14 wing drawing (just purchased from Univair) shows the same standoff made of phenolic for the aileron balance cable that the Sullivan STC shows. As far as I can see from the drawing, the forward aileron cable is routed under the bellcrank through a fairlead.


    I believe these are pics of the Marden install of the flap handle on a -12 seat

    http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...l=1#post555976

    The never-ending drama regarding flaps on a -12 continues...

    My plans state that the flaps are (65 and 5/16 ") Obtained from Piper plan # 11686, Drawing dated 01/22/1948 By RTM, checked 01/23/1948 By MRK.
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  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboBeaver View Post
    Pete,
    We have located the Marden Airways documents required
    for the flap modification. I will see if we can get them to SJ to list in tech section as you requested.
    E
    So I am looking at installing flaps on my PA 12 and following this thread. Are these documents available?
    Thanks A very stick puppy thanked for this post

  36. #36
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    I used Ron Sullivan's flap STC on my -12. it's a bit of a challenge to get the bellcranks and cables in the wings to play nice, and if I recall correctly I had to re-clock the flap handle for full 50 deg deflection. It's very do-able though.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO

  37. #37

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    I have been trying to contact Sullivan with contact information on Univair with no sucess. How did you get the STC?

  38. #38
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    I either called or wrote to him, don't remember which. That was about 12 or 13 years ago. Maybe give Atlee Dodge a call, I think they have contact info for a bunch of different STC holders. Right now their website appears to be down. Also, Charly Center, Crosswinds Stol would likely know.
    Last edited by Gordon Misch; 08-02-2022 at 04:48 PM.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboBeaver View Post
    Pete,
    We have located the Marden Airways documents required
    for the flap modification. I will see if we can get them to SJ to list in tech section as you requested.
    E
    Pete,
    Could you get with the powers that be and post the drawings and paperwork as discussed for
    THIS INFORMATION IS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.
    It would be of great help in the history of flap installations on the PA-12 .

    Thanks,
    Ken
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  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    I either called or wrote to him, don't remember which. That was about 12 or 13 years ago. Maybe give Atlee Dodge a call, I think they have contact info for a bunch of different STC holders. Right now their website appears to be down. Also, Charly Center, Crosswinds Stol would likely know.
    Thanks. I haven’t written to him I will try that next. How do I contact Attlee Dodge ?

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