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Thread: HIO-360-C1A Helicopter Engine in a Super Cub

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    topwater1956's Avatar
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    HIO-360-C1A Helicopter Engine in a Super Cub

    I just bought a experimental Super Cub with a HIO-360-C1A helicopter engine. Its been modified for fixed wing and flown 834 hrs since. The man had died
    and the lady knew nothing about the engine. Does anyone know what modifications had to be done and also this engine came with fuel injection but has a
    carburetor on it now. Also it was 205 hp in the helicopter and what HP is it now. Does anyone have this engine in their Super Cub? Thanks in advance

  2. #2
    stewartb's Avatar
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    That engine is rated at 205 hp at 2900 rpm. Are you running it at 2900? There’s no explanation of why the almost identical A1A is 180 hp at 2900 rpm with the same compression ratio. The only difference is the induction, and it sounds like yours is changed for the carb. What doesn’t add up is that carbed 360s at 8.5-1 and 2700 rpm make 180 hp. Why would the A1A only make 180 at 2900 rpm with higher compression? My guess is your engine should make 185 hp at 2700 rpm.
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    Um, the IO 360-A1A is a 200hp @ 2700 engine, which is what that HIO-360-C1A is derived from. The HIO is rated at a higher rpm which is where the added 5hp comes from.
    I presume it has an HA-6 carburetor on the tuned intake sump or has the sump been changes to an updraft style?
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    Bearhawk Builder's Avatar
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    If it's the one out of Parlin Field I know that plane well. Engine came from Sharkey's in Lebanon and Cliff seemed to have it figured out pretty well for that Cub.
    Do yourself a favor and check the wood in the wings real well.
    By the way 'Clifford' here passed away this winter. We'll all miss him here in NH, VT.
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    Dirt911's Avatar
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    We’ll miss seeing Cliff hanging around Parlin…interesting character
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    topwater1956's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    That engine is rated at 205 hp at 2900 rpm. Are you running it at 2900? There’s no explanation of why the almost identical A1A is 180 hp at 2900 rpm with the same compression ratio. The only difference is the induction, and it sounds like yours is changed for the carb. What doesn’t add up is that carbed 360s at 8.5-1 and 2700 rpm make 180 hp. Why would the A1A only make 180 at 2900 rpm with higher compression? My guess is your engine should make 185 hp at 2700 rpm.

    The owner died and i haven't picked it up yet. I don't know anything about that combination.

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    topwater1956's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearhawk Builder View Post
    If it's the one out of Parlin Field I know that plane well. Engine came from Sharkey's in Lebanon and Cliff seemed to have it figured out pretty well for that Cub.
    Do yourself a favor and check the wood in the wings real well.
    By the way 'Clifford' here passed away this winter. We'll all miss him here in NH, VT.
    Yes Bearhawk Builder that's the one. I just had a annual done on it and going to pick it up next week or week after. Was curious what mods were done and what HP it wound up being since i'm not able to talk to Mr Henderson.

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    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    That engine is rated at 205 hp at 2900 rpm. Are you running it at 2900? There’s no explanation of why the almost identical A1A is 180 hp at 2900 rpm with the same compression ratio. The only difference is the induction, and it sounds like yours is changed for the carb. What doesn’t add up is that carbed 360s at 8.5-1 and 2700 rpm make 180 hp. Why would the A1A only make 180 at 2900 rpm with higher compression? My guess is your engine should make 185 hp at 2700 rpm.
    Isn't it true that helicopter engines are optimized for operation in a narrow rpm range? Does the HIO engine use the same cam as the AIA?
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    stewartb's Avatar
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    I’d guess yes. I’m curious how a carb bolts onto a tuned induction.

    HIO-360A1A specs say 180hp. Typo?
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    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    Enstrom F28C makes 205 hp at 2900 but it is turbocharged
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #11
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    From the type certificate: H1CE

    I - Model F-28 Helicopter, 3 PCLH (Normal Category), Approved April 15, 1965
    Engine Lycoming HIO-360-C1A or HIO-360-C1B
    Fuel 100/130 min. or 100LL min. grade aviation gasoline.
    Engine limits For all operations: 2700 rpm (195 hp.)

    II - Model F-28A Helicopter, 3 PCLH (Normal Category), Approved May 28, 1968
    Engine Lycoming H1O-360-C1A or HIO-360-C1B
    Fuel 100/130 min. or 100LL min. grade aviation gasoline.
    Engine limits For all operations: 2900 rpm (205 hp.)

    The above were not turbocharged.

    This one was and was a different model.


    IV - Model F-28C Helicopter, 3 PCLH (Normal Category), Approved December 8, 1975 (See NOTE 4)
    Engine Lycoming HIO-360-E1AD or HIO-360-E1BD with Rajay Model 301E10-2 orRotomaster (Hartzell Engine Technologies) Model 3BT5EE10J2 turbochargerper STC SE100GL and Bendix (Precision Airmotive LLC) RSA-5AB1, PartsList 2524712-1, -2, -3, -5, -6, -7, -8, -9, or -10 fuel injector. (See NOTE 13regarding -E1BD Engine.)
    Fuel 100/130 min. or 100LL min. grade aviation gasoline.
    Engine limits For all operations: 2900 rpm, 36.5 in. Hg manifold pressure (205 hp.)
    N1PA
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  12. #12
    txpacer's Avatar
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    I have that engine on a Pitts S-1S. The higher rpm limit is great for acro, but it seems like it would be pretty heavy for a Cub.

  13. #13
    Cub Builder's Avatar
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    I have a HO-360-C1A apart for overhaul in my hangar right now and an O-360-A1A in one of my planes sitting next to it, so comparisons are easy to make. The HO-360-C1A originally had a side draft carb and sump, so was converted to an updraft carb, sump and associated intake tubes to match the O-360-A1A. Otherwise there is no appreciable difference in the engines. Internally, the crank bore of the HO-360-C1A is .030" bigger than the crank bore in the O-360-A1A case. So, the HO-360-C1A takes different main bearings that are .015" thicker than the O-360 mains.

    This particular engine had 270 hours SMOH by Penn Yan Aero in a Schweizer Helicopter, then less than 20 hours in a Bellanca Scout before the prop strike. It must have run really hot in the helicopter application as the exhaust valves and valve guides were shot with less than 300 hrs SMOH with new Lycoming cylinders. The exhaust valves had so much valve face recession they were beyond grinding. I'd be hesitant to use one removed from a helicopter without overhauling it first.

    At 2700 rpm, the O-360-A1A with the stock 8.5:1 pistons is rated at 180 HP at 2700 RPM. The HO-360-C1A has all the same parts and compression ratio, but the side draft carb & sump, and is rated at 180 HP at 2900 RPM. With the same carb and sump as the A1A, it should also be 180 HP at 2700 RPM as the rest of the parts are identical. The HIO-360-C1A is rated at 205 HP at 2900 RPM, but that uses 8.7:1 pistons to get that HP. So the HP is going to depend on which pistons you have. If it's 8.5:1, it's likely rated at 180 HP at 2700 RPM. If it's got 8.7:1 pistons, then with some interpolation, it's likely around 190 HP at 2700 RPM.

    -Cub Builder
    Last edited by Cub Builder; 03-27-2022 at 10:39 PM.
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  14. #14
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    I need to correct myself here. The 200 HP engine with 8.7:1 compression is the angle valve engine. So, with regards to the original post, if it's a parallel valve engine, then it is most likely 180 HP @2700 RPM. There are a couple of models of O-360s that are derated on HP, although I don't see any difference in the core engine, so is likely related to carb and induction changes for specific aircraft applications.

    Regarding the question about camshafts, the O, IO, HO, and HIO models of the 360 parallel valve engine all use the same camshaft, pistons and cylinders. The 200 HP engine is the angle valve engine using different cylinders, crankshaft, slightly higher compression (8.7:1) and a different camshaft. I don't think there is much that is interchangeable between the engines. But, I can't say I have ever measured or tried.

    -Cub Builder
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    topwater1956's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone for the Replies.

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    I had the HO-360-C1A in Bushwacker when I first built it. I had to change the magneto on one side if I remember right because a helicopter used the shower of sparks box I think. I ran it with the HA-6 carb for a while but I could never get it to no stumble when I jab the power at the last minute during landing and knew it would eventually cause me to wreck the airplane. I tried 3 different HA-6 carbs and they all did pretty much the same thing. After I think a few hundred hours switched to the MA4-5 updraft, problem solved. It did have at static about 50 more RPM then the MA4-5 so it did produce more power with the horizontal mounted carb. It kind of makes sense because if you look at the size of the venturi it is larger on the HA-6. Other then those changes it worked just like any other O-360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauleguy View Post
    I had the HO-360-C1A in Bushwacker when I first built it. I had to change the magneto on one side if I remember right because a helicopter used the shower of sparks box I think. I ran it with the HA-6 carb for a while but I could never get it to no stumble when I jab the power at the last minute during landing and knew it would eventually cause me to wreck the airplane. I tried 3 different HA-6 carbs and they all did pretty much the same thing. After I think a few hundred hours switched to the MA4-5 updraft, problem solved. It did have at static about 50 more RPM then the MA4-5 so it did produce more power with the horizontal mounted carb. It kind of makes sense because if you look at the size of the venturi it is larger on the HA-6. Other then those changes it worked just like any other O-360

    Thanks for the reply. I haven't picked it up yet. Had to get it annualed first and the a&p said it had that shower of sparks box on it. The Carb is a Marvel MF V A1P
    Last edited by topwater1956; 03-28-2022 at 08:36 PM.

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    Thanks all for the discussion. I have been long puzzled about the HIO 360-A1A I have fitted to a Zlin 326. The previous owner - who since passed away - told me it was 200hp but everything I read tells me that it is 180, despite the higher rpm. It had the fuel injection before but it was not serviceable and apparently gave trouble so I have bought an Australian Rotec TBI system which is a bolt on replacement. I just had the engine inspected ( it hasn’t run in 18 years) and looking forward to getting it running


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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandsman View Post
    Thanks all for the discussion. I have been long puzzled about the HIO 360-A1A I have fitted to a Zlin 326. The previous owner - who since passed away - told me it was 200hp but everything I read tells me that it is 180, despite the higher rpm. It had the fuel injection before but it was not serviceable and apparently gave trouble so I have bought an Australian Rotec TBI system which is a bolt on replacement. I just had the engine inspected ( it hasn’t run in 18 years) and looking forward to getting it running
    Look at the engine type certificate. 1E10

    Model HIO-360-A1A,-A1B
    RatingMaximum continuous, hp., r.p.m.full throttle at:Sea level pressure altitude 180-2900-S.L. to 3900 (What is this 3900 in the TC? Almost seems like a misprint. I've not seen an rpm this high on other Lycomings)
    Compression Ratio 8.7:1
    Bore and stroke, in. 5.125 x 4.375

    Model IO-360-A1A, -A1B
    Maximum continuous, hp., r.p.m. full throttle at: Sea level pressure altitude 200-2700-S.L
    Compression Ratio 8.7:1
    Bore and stroke, in. 5.125 x 4.375
    __________________________________________________

    There is something interesting about the information published in the TC.
    The HIO- is rated at only 180 hp at 2900 rpm + ??
    The IO- is rated at 200 hp at the lower 2700 rpm.
    Both engines have the same Compression Ratio and Bore and stroke. This doesn't make sense. The higher rpm should show a higher hp.

    This is NOTE 8 of the TC. HIO-360-A1A Similar to IO-360-A1A except has Bendix RSA-5AB1 fuel injector, Bendix S4LN200 magnetos. No provisions for propeller governor drive.

    This NOTE 8 is telling me there is a misprint in the TC. I suggest the HIO-360-A1A which you have is really rated at 200 hp. What does it say on the data plate?
    N1PA
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    topwater1956's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Look at the engine type certificate. 1E10

    Model HIO-360-A1A,-A1B
    RatingMaximum continuous, hp., r.p.m.full throttle at:Sea level pressure altitude 180-2900-S.L. to 3900 (What is this 3900 in the TC? Almost seems like a misprint. I've not seen an rpm this high on other Lycomings)
    Compression Ratio 8.7:1
    Bore and stroke, in. 5.125 x 4.375

    Model IO-360-A1A, -A1B
    Maximum continuous, hp., r.p.m. full throttle at: Sea level pressure altitude 200-2700-S.L
    Compression Ratio 8.7:1
    Bore and stroke, in. 5.125 x 4.375
    __________________________________________________

    There is something interesting about the information published in the TC.
    The HIO- is rated at only 180 hp at 2900 rpm + ??
    The IO- is rated at 200 hp at the lower 2700 rpm.
    Both engines have the same Compression Ratio and Bore and stroke. This doesn't make sense. The higher rpm should show a higher hp.

    This is NOTE 8 of the TC. HIO-360-A1A Similar to IO-360-A1A except has Bendix RSA-5AB1 fuel injector, Bendix S4LN200 magnetos. No provisions for propeller governor drive.

    This NOTE 8 is telling me there is a misprint in the TC. I suggest the HIO-360-A1A which you have is really rated at 200 hp. What does it say on the data plate?
    This one is a C1A not an A1A. The data plate shows 205hp @ 2900 with Fuel Injection, but this one has been converted to a carburetor.

  21. #21
    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Builder View Post
    I need to correct myself here. The 200 HP engine with 8.7:1 compression is the angle valve engine.
    What part of the engine type code, if any, indicates whether the engine is parallel or angle valve? It seems to be an important performance differentiator but how is it indicated?

  22. #22
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by topwater1956 View Post
    This one is a C1A not an A1A. The data plate shows 205hp @ 2900 with Fuel Injection, but this one has been converted to a carburetor.
    I was replying to Brandsman in post #18.

    I understand yours is a -C1A.
    N1PA
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  23. #23
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    What part of the engine type code, if any, indicates whether the engine is parallel or angle valve? It seems to be an important performance differentiator but how is it indicated?
    You sort of have to know. There are two TCs involved. The basic O-360-A1A is a 180 hp engine. When they upped the horsepower to 200, the big change was a tuned intake which included the angle valve cylinders and a new TC. The -B has lower compression and 180 hp.

    From TC 1E10
    IO-360-A1A Basic Model. Four cylinder air-cooled, horizontally opposed, direct drive, fuel injected, tuned induction engine having oil jets for internal piston cooling. Provisions for single action controllable pitch propeller.
    &
    IO-360-B1A Similar to O-360-A1A except has Simmonds Type 530 fuel injector. Does not have tuned induction.

    From TC E-286
    Model O-360-A1A,
    Rating Rated Max. continuous hp., rpm, full throttle at: Sea level press. alt. 180-2700
    Compression Ratio 8.5:1

    In this case the -B has lower compression and 168 hp.
    N1PA
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    Thanks Skywagon8a for those comprehensive answers - I will check the data plate on Sunday when next I am at that airfield where the engine is. Apologies to topwater1956 no hijack intended simply adding to the discussion as it is all a bit odd!


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