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Thread: Experimental Insurance in Alaska

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    Narwhal's Avatar
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    Experimental Insurance in Alaska

    Hi,

    Anyone flying an experimental in Alaska, would you be willing to share or recommend someone that can sell an insurance policy for a carbon cub? BWI said they cannot sell me a policy (quote:"all markets declined to offer a quote due to no AK experimentals or due to the make/model"). Avemco said they will not insure an experimental that is worth more than 250k, even if I was willing to accept only 250k hull coverage. Maybe it is also because it's a carbon cub fx3, which seems to have a bad accident history overall, but I'm not sure.

    11,000 hours, 60 tailwheel and 14 make/model (factory approved 5 day training course), ATP/CFI age 39. Not sure if my lack of tailwheel played a role, but if so they didn't say so. I'm renting a citabria as much as possible while the airplane is finished to try and bulk up on tailwheel time (they seem not to value PA18 time any more than Citabria).

    Any help is appreciated. Would prefer not to fly uninsured but if there is no other choice...
    Last edited by Narwhal; 03-22-2022 at 01:14 AM.

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    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    Contact Teri at NorthWest Insurance Group, Hillsboro, OR. They insure my FX-3 with Starr. Don't know if AK has any special requirements. PM for for email or phone of you can't find them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal View Post
    Hi,

    Anyone flying an experimental in Alaska, would you be willing to share or recommend someone that can sell an insurance policy for a carbon cub? BWI said they cannot sell me a policy (quote:"all markets declined to offer a quote due to no AK experimentals or due to the make/model"). Avemco said they will not insure an experimental that is worth more than 250k, even if I was willing to accept only 250k hull coverage. Maybe it is also because it's a carbon cub fx3, which seems to have a bad accident history overall, but I'm not sure.

    11,000 hours, 60 tailwheel and 14 make/model (factory approved 5 day training course), ATP/CFI age 39. Not sure if my lack of tailwheel played a role, but if so they didn't say so. I'm renting a citabria as much as possible while the airplane is finished to try and bulk up on tailwheel time (they seem not to value PA18 time any more than Citabria).

    Any help is appreciated. Would prefer not to fly uninsured but if there is no other choice...
    For what it's worth, I have my experimental pa-12 insured through Falcon in Soldotna, they have been great to work with. Mine is not a carbon cub or worth 250k so you may have different results. I also think they use the same underwriters... good luck!
    Chris
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    WWhunter's Avatar
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    Make sure whatever company you go with insures your experimental "in flight". I recently renewed the policy on my Murphy Rebel with Old Republic. One of the other places that gave me a quote stated that there was no " in flight" coverage. Yes, stupid, why would I pay more than I currently am and not have coverage in flight. They said I could taxi all I want but as soon as I am in flight, coverage stops. They mentioned that this only peertained to experimentals. Needless to say, I stuck with my current policy holder.
    Don't take life too seriously ... no one gets out alive!
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    Thanks for the recommendations, I left a message with northwest insurance group and made contact with falcon in Soldotna who I'm in the process of filling out forms for. I'll look over any policy carefully for both in-flight coverage and helicopter recovery. I will check out Old Republic as well.

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    Have you tried AVEMCO? DENNY
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    G44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal View Post
    Thanks for the recommendations, I left a message with northwest insurance group and made contact with falcon in Soldotna who I'm in the process of filling out forms for. I'll look over any policy carefully for both in-flight coverage and helicopter recovery. I will check out Old Republic as well.

    Keep in mind, once you fill out a brokers form and supply an “N” number and they shop for quotes you are then locked out from using a different broker. So, that being said, pick one agent/broker you like THEN give them your “N” number and have them shop for quotes from the underwriters. The one exception to this is Avemco, since Avemco underwrites (for the most part) their own policy’s always get a quote from them in addition to the quote from your chosen broker.

    Kurt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal View Post
    Thanks for the recommendations, I left a message with northwest insurance group and made contact with falcon in Soldotna who I'm in the process of filling out forms for. I'll look over any policy carefully for both in-flight coverage and helicopter recovery. I will check out Old Republic as well.
    Be sure to understand any limitations they may set during phase 1. I had a big deductible for flight risks until phase 1 was complete. Some will not provide any hull coverage until phase 1 is complete. I also found that two different brokers set quite different minimum experience requirements even though they were both quoting for the same carrier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    Have you tried AVEMCO? DENNY
    Yeah, they said they would not insure an experimental valued over $250k even if I was only willing to accept hull coverage up to $250k.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G44 View Post
    Keep in mind, once you fill out a brokers form and supply an “N” number and they shop for quotes you are then locked out from using a different broker. So, that being said, pick one agent/broker you like THEN give them your “N” number and have them shop for quotes from the underwriters. The one exception to this is Avemco, since Avemco underwrites (for the most part) their own policy’s always get a quote from them in addition to the quote from your chosen broker.

    Kurt
    Thanks, I already got that far with BWI, they shopped for underwriters and came back telling me they couldn't find any so they won't sell me a policy. Not sure what the implications of that are. I've accepted that I may not be able to get insurance, but obviously will get some if I can.

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    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    If CubCrafters insisted that anyone interested in a FX-3 should get an insurance quote before placing the order there would be a lot fewer FX-3 orders. There is nothing about the FX-3 that makes it a high insurance risk. It's a really well behaved aircraft. It's just that people with more money than tail wheel experience are buying them and wrecking them.
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    We had a thread about this a couple of weeks ago. Avemco’s limit on my Cub is $200K and includes in flight. They told me they have higher limits for Carbon Cubs but the also have other factors to consider. I’ve been an Avemco customer for 20 years and insuring two planes with them was advantageous. I know the OP has a 182 so the best bet is to go to the 182 insurer for a package deal on two planes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    We had a thread about this a couple of weeks ago. Avemco’s limit on my Cub is $200K and includes in flight. They told me they have higher limits for Carbon Cubs but the also have other factors to consider. I’ve been an Avemco customer for 20 years and insuring two planes with them was advantageous. I know the OP has a 182 so the best bet is to go to the 182 insurer for a package deal on two planes.
    My 182 was with BWI, I sold it though. My history of no claims with them on that airplane held no sway.
    Last edited by Narwhal; 03-24-2022 at 03:51 AM.

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    G44's Avatar
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    Narwhal, if you go with no hull coverage make sure you consider “not in motion” hull coverage. This covers airplane if hangar burns down, collapses, drunk kid in his dads truck drives into it, wind storm and so on. A lot can happen on the ground beyond your control.

    Liability coverage is a must but you already knew that.


    Kurt
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    Seems like it is getting worse. I am starting to see agents disagreeing with express policy statements and additional charges tacked on after the fact. But I am getting older by the minute, and most insurers now will not even talk to me. 22,000 hours, no claims or violations, but that doesn't count. Turned down for a waiver of subrogation in a Cirrus - too complicated for a lowly Airbus pilot.

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    I spoke with Avemco about two weeks ago and was told they insure Carbon Cubs up to $350K, but that may be conditional. Pilot time in type and location are usually big variables for insurance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I spoke with Avemco about two weeks ago and was told they insure Carbon Cubs up to $350K, but that may be conditional. Pilot time in type and location are usually big variables for insurance.
    AVEMCO declined to quote for my FX-3 when I had about 100 hours in type. They refused to say why.
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    If you can afford a$300k toy airplane, you only need liability.
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    Quote Originally Posted by don d View Post
    If you can afford a$300k toy airplane, you only need liability.
    I consider that to be an exceptionally ignorant comment. I decided I could afford a $300k toy airplane because I expected to be able to sell it when I got tired of playing with it. I can't sell it if it is broken and uninsured.
    Last edited by frequent_flyer; 03-24-2022 at 06:52 PM.
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    Narwhal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I spoke with Avemco about two weeks ago and was told they insure Carbon Cubs up to $350K, but that may be conditional. Pilot time in type and location are usually big variables for insurance.
    I'll try Avemco again, I just filled out their online application and will see if I get a different result this time!

    If you can afford a$300k toy airplane, you only need liability.
    I had typed out a big spiel before your reply that contained my philosophical ramblings on insurance, including my thoughts on self-insuring, but deleted it . Losing the airplane wouldn't significantly harm me financially or retirement-wise, it would just be a major gut punch. I'd like to think that having insurance or not having it would have no bearing on the way I'd operate the airplane, but it would offer some peace of mind.
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by don d View Post
    If you can afford a$300k toy airplane, you only need liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    I consider that to be an exceptionally ignorant comment. I decided I could afford a $300k toy airplane because I expected to be able to sell it when I got tired of playing with it. I can't sell it if it is broken and uninsured.
    Two opposite approaches to insurance. Each one is applicable to the person making the statement. I happen to be in Don's camp and am well ahead of the financial equation even if there had been a total loss. That has nothing to do with Narwal's desire to find insurance.
    N1PA
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    I realized the downfall of no insurance when I was flying over the white mountains national forest and looked down at no roads and thought man that would really suck to try and get the wreckage out of here with no roads $$$$ helicopter.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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    aflyer's Avatar
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    I just went through this with my newly-finished EX-3, which I consider to be worth north of $300K. As a 30 year customer of Bill White, I called and talked to him (hisownself). He made the comment that Alaska insurance was "impossible" but I imagine he meant the market was limited. I ended up with 3 quotes (4k hours total, 3500 tailwheel, age 71).

    AIG (falcon) for $300k hull, $7k/yr with $15K deductible with 3 hours checkout in make and model (requires a trip to Oregon)
    AVEMCO $200k hull, $6600/yr with 1k deductible no coverage for the first 10 hours of flight
    BWI $300k hull, $14K/yr with $30K deductible


    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    I realized the downfall of no insurance when I was flying over the white mountains national forest and looked down at no roads and thought man that would really suck to try and get the wreckage out of here with no roads $$$$ helicopter.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I had this thought as well, one place where full coverage really helps.
    I went with AVEMCO. I talked to a senior sales guy who told me that AVEMCO has over 300 pilots on the books who are over 90
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    Here’s a scary thought. Aircraft lessors have 340 airliners on lease in Russia. They are not going to get them back, so standby for insurers to raise their rates. That will affect us.
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    stewartb's Avatar
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    I’m glad Avemco doesn’t insure airliners!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmer Hank View Post
    Here’s a scary thought. Aircraft lessors have 340 airliners on lease in Russia. They are not going to get them back, so standby for insurers to raise their rates. That will affect us.
    I too have wondered about those lessors loosing their planes. But I do not see how that would effect insurance losses as it applies to us, when the airframes are still able to fly? Seems to me that is an altogether different type of loss.
    N1PA
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    There is usually a "War" exclusion.
    Steve Pierce

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    stewartb's Avatar
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    FWIW, my exp Cub insured at the $200K limit runs $2,689 total. That’s $64 more than my 180 valued at $190K. I’m the only named pilot and can only fly one at a time so the aggregate is the number I’ve shopped. Big tires, big motors, and big props are on my equipment lists.

    From my policy summary. My rates went down when I stopped tying down outside. Windstorms and tire slashers made their impact, I guess.

    This policy includes these premium credits: Hangar; Claims Free; Multi-Plane; Aviation Group Membership
    Exclusions-

    This Policy does not cover bodily injury, property damage or loss:  When your insured aircraft is used for any of the following:
    a. towing of banners or gliders;
    b. aerial seeding, spraying or dusting;
    c. aerial hunting, herding or spotting of animals, birds or fish;
    d. powerline, pipeline, traffic, or fire patrol or surveillance;
    e. parachuting activities;
    f. closed course racing, or practicing or qualifying for a race;
    g. police, military, firefighting, ambulance or prisoner transport operations.

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    jrussl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    FWIW, my exp Cub insured at the $200K limit runs $2,689 total. That’s $64 more than my 180 valued at $190K. I’m the only named pilot and can only fly one at a time so the aggregate is the number I’ve shopped. Big tires, big motors, and big props are on my equipment lists.

    From my policy summary. My rates went down when I stopped tying down outside. Windstorms and tire slashers made their impact, I guess.



    Exclusions-
    Interesting that it doesn’t exclude aerial photography. Thought most did. Maybe with the advent of GoPros hanging off so many aircraft, they have backed off that exclusion. Thanks for sharing the detail, Stewart.


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    Stewart…$2689 is Pretty good for $200k, mine is $2400 from Avemco with $75k hull… I have over 3k taildragger hrs. $2100 of that is hull alone

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    stewartb's Avatar
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    But like I said, only one can fly at a time. I think the aggregate is the important number. It certainly is to my wife, who pays the bill!

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    My Decathlon hull premium is under a grand. Could be that Cubs get beat up more often?

    I note above that flight instruction is not excluded. Flight instruction is the most difficult to get covered - and most expensive. You sre lucky.

  34. #34
    G44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    But like I said, only one can fly at a time. I think the aggregate is the important number. It certainly is to my wife, who pays the bill!
    Ya but both can burn up in a hangar fire. The underwriter has taken this into account.
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    Narwhal's Avatar
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    Someone told me that CFI insurance is almost impossible to get in Alaska now.....

    Anyway, I got rejected again by Avemco at 350k declared value, I tried a third time with 250k and got a little further, at least this time they sent me an extra experimental questionnaire asking about time in the specific airplane and modifications. I'm still waiting to hear back from Falcon. Northwest Insurance Group in Hillsboro, OR said they were not licensed to provide coverage in Alaska and accordingly would not sell to a plane based there.

  36. #36
    Narwhal's Avatar
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    Well, things have certainly not improved.

    As I'm researching my trip through Canada I discover that liability insurance is required. Believe it or not no one will even cover that. Avemco was downright rude about it and told me they were not interested in less than friendly terms (I guess they weren't amused when I tried to get subsequent hull quotes by incrementally lowering the hull value). BWI said no. Falcon said no. Again to liability only. Also, no one will offer a reason. Since the Alaska Airmen were able to insure their pilots, I have to assume it is lack of tailwheel time. Can't be time in type alone, because those guys had 0, maybe they persuaded their carrier to count PA18.

    So now I have no way to legally get the airplane back to Alaska, other than hope that the 40 hours I get during my fly-off will be sufficient for someone to at least offer liability for the ferry. Technically, it seems that the insurance is required even for Canada overflight.

    First world problems I guess. Again no accident history. 700+ hours Alaska time. Too much tricycle I guess but I'm renting a Citabria as much as I can.
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  37. #37
    frequent_flyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal View Post
    Avemco was downright rude about it and told me they were not interested in less than friendly terms
    I had attempted to get an FX-3 quote from Avemco. They were not rude but refused to quote and refused to provide any reason other than "underwriting policy".

    Starr Indemnity and Liability Company is known to provide hull and liability coverage for the FX-3. Perhaps try contacting them directly and asking if they can suggest an agent licensed to do business in Alaska.

    I was able to get coverage with only one hour in type and a briefing from a factory pilot. I actually had 2 hours in type when I took delivery. I did have PA-18 time and time in several other tail wheel types with over 500 hours tail wheel. It was the PA-18 time that I think finally convinced them to cover me without needing 5 hours or more in type.

    Two more FX-3 suffered substantial damage in landing accidents just this year. I suspect that it may be even more difficult to find FX-3 coverage soon. The sad thing is that it's one of the best behaved tail wheel aircraft I have flown.
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  38. #38
    Narwhal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    I had attempted to get an FX-3 quote from Avemco. They were not rude but refused to quote and refused to provide any reason other than "underwriting policy".

    Starr Indemnity and Liability Company is known to provide hull and liability coverage for the FX-3. Perhaps try contacting them directly and asking if they can suggest an agent licensed to do business in Alaska.

    I was able to get coverage with only one hour in type and a briefing from a factory pilot. I actually had 2 hours in type when I took delivery. I did have PA-18 time and time in several other tail wheel types with over 500 hours tail wheel. It was the PA-18 time that I think finally convinced them to cover me without needing 5 hours or more in type.

    Two more FX-3 suffered substantial damage in landing accidents just this year. I suspect that it may be even more difficult to find FX-3 coverage soon. The sad thing is that it's one of the best behaved tail wheel aircraft I have flown.
    Thanks frequent_flyer! I filled out Starr's email form.

  39. #39

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    Yeah, me too. E-mailed with a VP. No luck. I am almost out of the CFI business.
    A friend put together a nice J-5 from scraps. A beautiful restoration. I have 7000 tailwheel hours, but only two in the J-5.
    His broker said without 50 hours in type (make & model) nobody would issue me a Waiver of Subrogation.

    That is a change - within the last five years I have been issued waivers in the SR 77 and the ZPF-7, two very different airplanes from Cub-type.

    He said part of it was my advanced age.

    The solution may be to just add hull to my SAFE policy. Really expensive! Not worth it for the limited instruction I do.

  40. #40
    courierguy's Avatar
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    I was greatly surprised to find that when I asked for a liability quote on my homebuilt, after I told the agent my age, about my 400' strip, hours, and where and how I fly, they came back with a quote so low I jumped on it. Avemco.

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