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Thread: Experimental Insurance in Alaska

  1. #41

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    Don’t get me wrong - Avemco is the lowest premium for the max coverage for my non-instructional flying. They are not at all interested in insuring flight instruction, although they do have a couple of variants that cover some instructional activities.

    It may be that I will be seriously limited in the future as to instruction given. Maybe it is time . . . Most folks do not even live this long, let alone be able to jump in a Cub or Stearman - both of which I shall do in the next four hours.
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  2. #42
    55-PA18A's Avatar
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    Just received this from AVEMCO. Looks like they'll be at the aviation show, so they can be asked directly, rather than just speculating.

    We are excited to be back in Alaska! Be sure to stop by the Avemco Insurance Company booth #89 May 6-8 at the Palmer, Alaska Fairgrounds.

    Robyn Miller and Luke Barnette, from our team of aviation insurance specialists, will be available to answer questions and chat with you.
    Make sure to pick up a pilot cap and other items while you are there.*

    Luke will be speaking about Alaska insurance claim files in his presentation “Birds, Bears, and Bullets – Wild in Alaska”.

    Date: Sunday, May 8
    Time: 2:00 pm to 2:50 pm
    Location: Hoskins Hall – Alaska State Fairgrounds

    Attendees will be able to receive WINGS credit for attending this seminar.

    We hope to see you there!

    Team Avemco

    P.S. Even if you can’t make it to the show, take time to read the article Is Your Aviation Insurance Made for Alaska Aviation?

    Thanks stewartb thanked for this post

  3. #43
    Narwhal's Avatar
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    I did finally get a quote through Falcon/Starr. $32,000/year for hull and $3,000/year liability only. At least I can fly through Canada legally with the liability only. I am grateful that I can get anything at this point. Looking through all the cub accidents in AK last year is pretty sobering, knowing that for everything in there were probably 2-3 more claims not in the NTSB database.

  4. #44
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    Wow! I figured it would be expensive but 32k. I guess that is what they need to charge considering all the accidents up in Ak, been that way for 50 years or more. At least you can get liability and get her home. Did they give you any indication the cost of hull coverage when you get a year or two of flying and ownership under your belt?

    Kurt
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by G44 View Post
    Wow! I figured it would be expensive but 32k. I guess that is what they need to charge considering all the accidents up in Ak, been that way for 50 years or more. At least you can get liability and get her home. Did they give you any indication the cost of hull coverage when you get a year or two of flying and ownership under your belt?

    Kurt
    They said it should drop under $10k once I get 100 hours in type, I should have close to that by the time I complete the 40 hour flyoff snd get it to AK.
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  6. #46
    stewartb's Avatar
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    I don’t think Alaska has anything to do with high rates for Carbon Cubs. Their accident history isn’t dominated by AK operators.

  7. #47
    Narwhal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I don’t think Alaska has anything to do with high rates for Carbon Cubs. Their accident history isn’t dominated by AK operators.
    According to my insurance people/agent/contacts Alaska has something to do with it, but maybe they're just being nice?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal View Post
    According to my insurance people/agent/contacts Alaska has something to do with it, but maybe they're just being nice?
    Alaska rates will always be higher for this type aircraft. True off airport ops are very common in AK, and not nearly as common in lower 48 Ops. Secondly, cost of recovery in AK is typically MUCH higher than in lower 48.

    Combine those, and the fact that helicopters often become necessary in AK recovery, and that’s a large part of the difference, at least. How much of that is real? Dunno, but I’ll tell you that a significant “oops” in the Brooks Range, or NW Alaska, or any one of many places in Alaska gets really expensive, really fast.

    Break one down here, not so much. But the difference in numbers of true off airport ops is very high as well.

    MTV
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  9. #49

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    I have no knowledge, but as a guess, aren't CCs operated by a different group? In Alaska, the Super Cub seems to get the job done, and my impression is that if you have $300 grand for a new Cub you are not really a bush pilot, and are getting ready to play one on TV.
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  10. #50
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Narwhal would be well served to have a conversation with Robyn from Avemco while she’s there. She’s the real deal for insurance info.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    I have no knowledge, but as a guess, aren't CCs operated by a different group? In Alaska, the Super Cub seems to get the job done, and my impression is that if you have $300 grand for a new Cub you are not really a bush pilot, and are getting ready to play one on TV.
    It is very unlikely that you will see my FX-3 or me on YouTube. I have never claimed to be a bush pilot and don't even know if there is a well accepted definition of the term. I just like to take my FX-3 to places I can't take my PA-28 (well I could take it to those places but getting the wreckage out would be expensive).

    My FX-3 is an expensive toy not a work truck. I have no problem with that.
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  12. #52
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    Ouch! As a CC owner with legacy death gear, I do fly 'off road' here in Idaho. Definitely not Alaska, but we do have numerous areas to 'play' around in. Mine isn't $300K and I built it (yes it was a kit, EX2).

    Back to the original question; insurance the first year was insane. Flew the wings off the first year and reduced the cost by over half for the second year.

  13. #53
    Narwhal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    I have no knowledge, but as a guess, aren't CCs operated by a different group? In Alaska, the Super Cub seems to get the job done, and my impression is that if you have $300 grand for a new Cub you are not really a bush pilot, and are getting ready to play one on TV.
    Have you looked at prices on good condition PA-18's lately? $300k isn't too far off for some of them.

    https://www.barnstormers.com/categor...Super-Cub.html

    Several listed on there for over $200k right now.

  14. #54

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    I didn't mean to disparage rich guys who want to land off-airport. I was just suggesting that maybe some of the CC insurance payouts were causing insurers to take another look. A hull premium of $33k per year might indicate that one out of every 15 or so is having a serious insured incident every year.

    I am also guessing that Alaska operators of PA-18s might be self-insuring. Counting liability, that kind of insurance premium is around $100/day, even on days when you are down for maintenance. That gets passed on to customers -

    Take my comments with a grain of salt - I have no idea how folks make money with lightplanes. I see $10,000 annuals that take two months, fuel over $7/gal, engines and props with a half-year lead time, hangar rents exceeding a grand a month - baffling how we keep flying these things at all. I am above all not a "businessman."
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  15. #55

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    And speaking of Super Cub values, a buddy is considering selling - low time 160, good cover and interior, extended wingtips (ugh) decent radio - always hangared and flown regularly. I thought $120 was stretching it - wrong again?

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by aeroaddict View Post
    ....

    Back to the original question; insurance the first year was insane. Flew the wings off the first year and reduced the cost by over half for the second year.
    I wonder Is it required to pay that high premium for the whole year if 100 hours was flown off in two months? I wonder if the premium might be immediately adjusted when the rate reducing milestone is reached? (Some folks have flown 100 hours in a month.)

  17. #57
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    Good question, and I didn't ask my insurance. So maybe the Op might suggest this to a potential insurer to see if there is a break point in hours flown where rates could be reduced.

    Signed,
    One of the 'Rich Guys'

  18. #58
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    My policy is for one year at an issued rate. I have the option to change to not in motion and get a reduction in rate for a reduction in risk, but the rate doesn’t change until the policy gets reissued the following year.

  19. #59
    Narwhal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeroaddict View Post
    Good question, and I didn't ask my insurance. So maybe the Op might suggest this to a potential insurer to see if there is a break point in hours flown where rates could be reduced.

    Signed,
    One of the 'Rich Guys'
    I've asked that directly to BWI at least, and they wouldn't give a definitive answer. Every policy is a combination of factors of which time in type is just 1, according to them. They probably don't want to share all the factors (like age) for fear of some kind of discrimination suit. It's their right to offer insurance or not, as long as the government doesn't require their product I have no issue with the way they conduct their business.

    They did offer that people with 50 hours in type are usually a lot more insurable than those without that. The premium formulations are all some kind of secret sauce that they don't want to share. I'm not complaining, just sharing facts of what I've learned. I knew when I ordered the airplane that insurance was going to be a stretch, which is why I've been renting Citabrias and Super Cubs when I can afford to, sometimes solo, sometimes with instructors, and am up to about 100 hours tailwheel, most of that in the last year. In the end none of that time seemed to matter much though, although it will definitely make me safer for when I have to fly uninsured.

    Additionally I'm not really a rich guy, especially not by Alaska standards. I don't own a home or have any children despite a relatively advanced age. I sacrificed/delayed that stuff for the plane I wanted and a hangar. Stupid? Maybe, but it's a free country I guess.

    I would love to go to the Airman's show and speak with Avemco if for no other reason than to learn, but I am working all day, every day this month including weekends to make time for my airplane's fly-off and delivery next month.
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