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Thread: Building a 4 Seat (4S) Javron Cub

  1. #1
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Building a 4 Seat (4S) Javron Cub

    Folks

    Here we go again. Another marathon, mega thread. I will be helping and mentoring Brad as we (he) builds the prototype 4 seat Javron Cub.
    I will try to post helpful info and make this a manual for the 4 seat cub (4S), as much as possible.

    The following are our goals:

    1) Keep it as close to a Cub as possible
    2) Shooting for an empty weight of 1150 (I will be happy under 1200) with a gross of 2400
    3) Have the plane at Oshkosh 2023

    We will be using an 0-360, carbureted for simplicity and weight. Trying for 260 pounds or less with all accessories, except exhaust. Looking at magnesium sump, lightened cylinders, 9 to 1 comp ratio, Pmags, Skydynamics flywheel, B&C Alternator on the back, EarthX battery, Conical mount, no swing, built in thrust line. I am currently getting bids on the engine.

    What I think I know so far.

    The Javron fuselage is 44" wide and is a clean sheet design by a well known cub engineer. 19" longer overall. I believe it weighs, with powder coating, 138 pounds, but that will change as we are still working on finalizing the configuration. All other parts, other than the fuselage, will be standard Cub parts. All the angles will be standard Cub to keep the flight characteristics as close to a "Cub" as possible.
    The other 4 seat fuselage is available from Airframes Alaska. It is 40" wide, and weighs in at 155 without powder coating. Further options are the PA14, and Bushmaster versions of the Pacer/Tri-Pacer, which are much narrower (about 36"), and probably smaller in length and corresponding cargo area.

    The cargo area of the Javron 4S (I will here after refer to this plane as the 4S) is huge. Unlike the Airframes fuselage it does not have the dogleg, or shelf tubes. From the rear of the front seat, (rear seats will be fold up similar to a Cessna 180, and easily removable altogether), to the back of the cargo area is 7'. It is huge. Right now the door is 23" x 24" and does not have a lip. So you will be able to slide things in and out. It might be possible to increase the door size but my understanding is that to do so, and maintain structural integrity, would require a truss under the door and thus a 4 to 6" lip. So the door would be bigger but stuff would have to be lifted over the lip as opposed to sliding stuff. The right front seat will be easily removable to allow loading cargo through that larger door. Everything is a compromise. Lack of the shelf tubes could be looked upon as a negative as it does not allow an upper and a lower baggage.

    Due to goal #1 it will have dual cub clamshell type doors. My understanding is this may actually make getting in and out easier than with the seaplane doors, but I do not know that for a fact yet. Remember.....this is the prototype. In the future I am sure you could get Javron to make seaplane doors if that is your preference. One of the great strengths of Javron is the flexibility Jay offers to customize a kit to your specific mission, and desires.

    Float fittings
    Electric trim
    Structure for bolt in lead to adjust CG
    Lots of cargo net attach hooks (very necessary with such a large cargo area)
    Baggage floor will be on longerons
    Easily removable right seat to allow loading cargo through that larger door
    Metal belly under front floorboard to facilitate cleaning

    We are still working on the stick, rudder, and brake configurations. My preference is in goal #1..... thus dual stick, floor mounted rudder pedals, and heel brakes. But sometimes the monkey motion required for this may not make it the best option. We will see. Brad would like full dual controls and I agree with that.

    No pictures yet.


    So the first thing we need to do is acquire tools. I will post a list as soon as I can.

    Next we need to build a paint booth.


    PAINT BOOTH THOUGHTS

    Having been down this road a few times in the past here are some of my thoughts. I do not particularly like plastic (visqueen) booths for the following reasons. I was painting the rocker boards on a VW many years ago so was kneeling down on my ankles. When I stood up I lost my balance a little and put my hand out to steady myself and pulled the entire flimsy booth down on the wet paint car. Fixing that was a LONG process and made a more rigid booth a top priority. Plastic gets static electricity and attracts dust which then falls off when the plastic flexes which it will do every time you turn on the fans or turn them off. It might be fine if just using the booth one or two times but when building a Cub there are a TON of times you will be in the booth. 40 or 50 would be my guess. Way too much for a flimsy plastic booth. I know many have used plastic and gotten a perfectly good job. I'm not that good. I have to use every trick in the book, the very best gun, compressor, filters etc just to get an average job. I know, and envy, the folks that can get a 39 dollar gun from Harbor Freight, paint outside, and the darn thing looks like a Lexis finish. I can't do that. So......I will be building a 12x24x8 paint booth that will be fairly permanent so to speak. I will post that as I go.


    After a little internet searching I found this....

    *You need full air exchange twice per minute
    *Calculate your area LxWxH (24x12x 8' ) = 2304 .....x2 = 4600cfm needed to attain that
    *A one hp motor can usually move about 1800cfm which means I need about a 2.5hp motor (or a couple of lower Hp units)
    *For the intake filter area you need 1500 sq in per 1000cfm, so I will need 6900 sq in or.........12 24"x24" filters
    *For exit filters you can use 1000sq in per 1000 CFM so I need 8 24"x24" filters or use fiberglass rolls
    *Positive pressure is best thus would also need an intake fan......best number positive pressure is .3 wc
    *3/8" couplers flow twice as much air as 1/4" couplers
    *Lots and lots of light. Can't have too much light.

    Not sure I really need to hit all that but it is certainly a goal and will be much better than my last booth.

    Let the games begin........

    Hope this helps

    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Rusk; 04-25-2022 at 07:58 AM.
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  2. #2
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    This ought to be good! Can't wait to see how this thread shapes up!
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    Great. Keep the post coming. My 4s is on order. I own a body shop so on the paint booth I am ahead of the game . Everything else I have to learn
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    Go Bill Go! Super stoked for another Bill Rusk build!
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    This is gonna be good!


    What would it take to have you come to California and help me build? Haha
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    Sounds like a great project! I made a few slight modifications to the door on Janes new cub to make entry and exit a bit easier.

    Picture on left blue tape is normal lower door size. Pic on right is slightly modified seaplane opening. Not only is back seat easy to enter but I should be able to swing my leg past right side of front seat. Truss on bottom for support. I screwed up on rear door upright going to move tubes to get rear straight instead of current slight indent with tubes. I have lowered rear stick so flat cover will make for large extended baggage when in cargo mode. That horizontal tube in door will go away.
    DENNY
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    Last edited by DENNY; 02-14-2022 at 10:07 PM.
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  7. #7
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Tools

    This assumes you have the basic screw drivers, wrenches, tape measures, etc.
    If you guys see an obvious omission please add it in.


    Drill - I like a smaller size electric battery powered, I really don't use an air powered one much. (Unless you are building a non-quick build RV kit)
    Drill bit set with numbered and lettered drills
    #30 and #40 drill bits to include 3 each long (12") or so drill bits
    Step drill bit (I use this a lot)
    Left and right tin snips
    Straight snips
    8"x 24" belt disc sander (I use this ALL the time)
    Dremel tool with attachments
    Straight edge meter stick (ie metal yard stick but I like the extra few inches of the 1 meter size)
    12" and 6" rulers in at least 32nd incriments
    grinder with scotch brite wheels
    Snipix smooth jaw pliers
    Die Grinder with a cut off wheel
    Angle drill attachment and bits
    Spring punch
    Set of reamers (from 1/16 to 1/2" in 1/16 increments)
    Cleco pliers and 40 each of #30 (copper color) and #40 (silver color)
    Rivet squeezer with die set (#40, #30, dimple #30 and #40, flat set for flush rivets
    Digital level
    1/4" socket set (I rarely use 3/8 stuff on airplanes)
    Dial caliper
    Magnifying glass
    Rivet spacing tool
    Pop rivet set (I like Marson)
    Torque wrench 20-200 inch pounds
    Tap and Die set (use it a lot, worth it)
    Ball end hex key set (allen wrenches)
    Mirror and a magnet on an extension
    single edge razor blades (buy a box of 100)
    16,8,and 4 oz Ball Peen hammers
    Files
    Deburing tool
    Microstop Counter sink tool
    Countersinks #30 and #40
    X-Acto set
    Flaring tool
    Tubing cutter (small and large)
    Volt Ohm meter
    heat gun
    vice
    Organizer 30 drawer cabinets (I use a different color for non aviation hardware, ie acft cabinets are gray, home stuff cabinet is red trim)
    Shelves (I like to keep all parts together, you will be amazed how a part can hide)
    A couple of good scales (we are going to weight everything. one small up to about 5 pounds in grams and/or1/10th of an oz, and one to about 100 pounds in oz)

    Big stuff
    Compressor (Buy a good one and have it for life)
    Drill Press
    Band Saw (variable speed)


    Borrow Stuff (join local EAA chapter, they often have this)Finger Brake
    Foot Shear
    Roller

    Misc

    Need a bench or two. I have two 2'x6' benches and if I need more I just throw a 4x8 sheet of plywood on a couple of saw horses
    Will need a few saw horses
    Brooms
    Trash can and LOTS of bags
    Lots of no color bounty paper towels



    Last edited by Bill Rusk; 03-18-2022 at 11:13 AM.
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  8. #8

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    I don't suppose the magnesium sump or lightened cylinders would be legal on a certified cub or would they? I don't think the Pmags are or the Skydynamics flywheel would be legal. Just trying to make my certified cub as light as I can.

  9. #9
    aflyer's Avatar
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    I took this picture a while back for reference. This is a cubcrafters 360 with CF plenum, FI, starter, no flywheel, no alternator, preservative oil only. 267 lbs

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    Are you building this in Idaho Illinois or Minnesota?
    PA-12 N418BS

  11. #11
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Denny - love that door. Thanks for the pictures
    Dave - I think all are experimental. Sorry.
    Aflyer - good info. It is amazing how little emphasis has been put on engine weight. Many rebuilders have no idea what their engines weigh.
    KCJ - This build will be in Sandpoint Idaho

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  12. #12
    KJC's Avatar
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    Bill-are you still commuting? Last time I saw you was in the crew lounge in DEN.
    PA-12 N418BS

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    If you are going to change the wing incidence (Jay has spar attachments to do is so stock fuselage is fine) now is also the time to adjust the tail angle to match any wing change. DENNY

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    It may not have been this forum, but I read about a guy converting an enclosed trailer into a mobile paint booth. Had great LED lighting and he ran the fans off a trailer generator. When he finished his project he was renting it out. Sounded like a great business plan.

    Anyone have the stats on cylinder weights vs longevity?

    Its heavier than standard, but has there been any reviews on skydynamics valve cover gusset plates?

    -Arthur
    "Chet"

  15. #15

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    Hi Bill! Good to see you’ve launched this, been anticipating it.
    Tools….Dittos on the small battery drill, and I’d add several other battery items. I like the Milwaukee M12 stuff because it is small/light and tough. Their 90* drill is handy, Santa wife brought me a 20,000 rpm cutoff tool that’s as handy as a pocket T shirt, and the 1/4” drive ratchet is also. On the air side, if that die grinder you have listed isn’t a 90* one, you owe it to yourself to pick one up. Can be had at Harbor Freight for $10, quality isn’t too bad. At $10 you can buy several and give ‘em the heave ho if they get balky. I like having (have) 5 or six with a different burr or scotch brite or cutoff in each one. Save an unbelievable amount of time changing that stuff around. My straight die grinder became an almost an unused relic when the 90*s showed up about 30 years ago.
    That’s it for now, need pics of that fuselage now!
    Hammer down!

    Cheers!
    Oz

  16. #16
    spinner2's Avatar
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    Whitney punches.

    The punch has a point in the center that easily slips into a center punch prick. Fast and accurate and in thin material the hole stays round.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    brown bear's Avatar
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    love my Whitney punch !
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  18. #18

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    I can't wait to see how this goes. I am in line for 4S airframe #2 (if you count the prototype as #1)
    My build will be quite a bit different: center stick, set up to fly from left seat ie flaps, throttle, switches.
    This airframe already has the hanging rudder pedals, I'll play with that.
    Bill, I have really taken to heart your "build for 90% of your flying". Gonna by a very simple panel. No EFIS.
    Jay is building up the engine. Mag sump. machined fins & acc case, skeletonized flywheel. P mags. ported and polished. SD8 pad alternator
    Sensinitch prop, firewall battery.
    Everything going towards the lightest airframe possible.
    Tom
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  19. #19
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Thanks for the input gents.

    KCJ - yeah, about 19 commutes to go. Not that I'm counting.
    Denny - excellent point but we are not planning to change the incidence.
    Chet - interesting idea. Hmmmmm
    Oz - Thanks for the input. Brad.....you paying attention?
    Dan - I don't have one of those. Will check it out.
    Tom - I saw your frame in the shop. I'm sure we will be in touch, sharing ideas. Yes, prototype #1 which is good for you. There is an old saying in the aviation community (which I will be violating) "Never fly the A model of anything" LOL Sounds like you have the idea on weight. Keep it simple and light.

    Bill
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  20. #20
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Folks

    Some tool sources. The "main Squeeze is reported as being the absolute BEST hand squeezer out there.

    There are several tool sources


    Obviously Home Depot will have some items, and Harbor Freight.


    Others online


    https://www.cleavelandtool.com



    https://aircraft-tool.com



    https://www.browntool.com



    https://www.yardstore.com





    Here are a few items that would be good from Cleveland. You will probably spend about 3K on tools.This is close to 1K but is a lot of the more expensive stuff. Under tool bundles get the ......


    "Main Squeeze Kit"
    Angle Drill Attachment Kit
    Threaded Micro Stop Countersink Cage
    SKU: CT196Cleko Pliers

    SKU: CLP20



    If you can find them get the Wedge Loc Clecos

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  21. #21

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    Anybody have any info on the Backcountry Boss…looks like it too has some potential…

    http://www.supercub.com/photos/

  22. #22

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    Hi everyone,

    I'm the lucky guy who gets to build alongside Bill on this new project! I am brand new to this world so thought I'd mention a little about myself.

    First, I am a student pilot. Just passed the written and now get to focus on the flying. I live in Sandpoint Idaho and have wonderful flight instructions in Annie, KT, and Ken at Pilot Training Northwest. Winter is a slow time of year up here, but hope to gain experience quickly as the weather improves!

    Second, I am an absolute beginner as far as building is concerned. In fact, if I didn't have the good fortune to have Bill in my community, I'm not sure I'd have the confidence to start such a project. But, he has encouraged me to follow this new dream so I am all in! I guess what I will try to add to this thread is my perspective as a newbie in building and aviation in general. I will have more questions than answers (we'll leave the answers to Bill) but am so excited to join this group. I, like so many others, have read through many past threads and love the community.

    Oz- thanks for the advice on the 90* die grinder. I literally just got back from Home Depot and bought that very item wondering if it might be useful. Question answered!

    I will spend the next couple weeks getting my shop (3 car garage) ready for the fuselage and wings, which will hopefully arrive in Sandpoint late March. Bill is going to give me a crash course in fabric covering, etc so I will be somewhat ready to hit the ground running. I am so grateful to Jay at Javron for allowing Bill and I to build up this prototype! He has already been amazingly responsive and willing to help me.

    I humbly welcome any and all advice. So far, from my time with Bill and my flight instructors, I have 2 things solidly running through my mind- "keep it light" (Bill) and "more right rudder" (my patient flight instructors).

    We're off!

    Brad
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  23. #23

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    restoring a car right now. this is my most used tool. https://www.boschtools.com/us/en/bos...31-2a-34760-p/
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    We are using this gun a lot in our shop. You can change tips for primer and paint. The tips are disposable but we wash them a few times and get several uses out of them. It comes ready for disposable cups, you will love how easy clean up is. Definitely a bargain. https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/collisio...ion-spray-gun/
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  25. #25
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Folks

    I will try to post our orders from various suppliers as we go. This might help someone who is starting out.

    Got the landing light kits from Javron. This includes the lenses, and z bend parts to fabricate the landing/taxi light bays. We have not selected the actual lights yet.

    Ordered fabric, tapes, rib lace, and glue from Airtech

    We ordered the Aveo Ultra Daylight wingtip lights. These are position, strobe and Nav lights. Lowest weight and least expensive of the full service lights.
    Positive strobe daylight for the tail. Highly recommended to keep from getting run over from behind.

    50' of 4 colors of 20 gauge wire for the tip lights. 50' of 4 colors of 18 gauge for the landing lights. Unshielded.

    A couple of organizer hardware cabinets......be SURE to get cabinets that have dividers in the drawers. You don't need a full drawer for 10 nut plates. They used to make a cabinet with 3 dividers per drawer but I can't find those anywhere now. I guess they quit making them. Best I could find was drawers with one divider.

    Then hardware you will probably need......

    Soft rivets.....3-3, 3-4, 3-5 and 3-10 both flush and round head. I get a small number of long 3-10 rivets and cut them down for the rare occasion when you need a longer rivet. No sense having a bunch of long rivets you will almost never need.
    Soft rivets......4-3,4-4,4-5 and 4-10 flush and round
    Hard rivets ......same as above

    This will take up 16 compartments or 8 drawers

    Screws.....for starters......

    SS MACHINE SCREW AN526C- philips head Get 25 each of 6/32 x 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, and 3/4 same 4 lengths of 8/32 and 10/32
    MS21047L06K ANCHOR NUTS Get 25 or so 6/32, 8/32, 10/32 (maybe only get 10 of 10/32) also get miniature of these
    "U" TYPE TINNERMAN A1785-6Z-1D and A1784-6Z1D get at least 25 of each then get the type B screws, Stainless, philips, in the 4 lengths above

    Although Javron includes a lot of the hardware with the kit, you will have lots of needs and getting it together before you start will speed your progress if you do not have to stop and order screws you did not have. I have found most of the "assortment" packages from Spruce includes a lot of stuff you will never use. I will continue to post these as we go and hopefully it will help.

    Our current plan is to get the wings, flaps, ailerons, and tail feathers covered and painted this summer. So much of what you see above is prep to get the wings covered.

    More to follow

    Bill
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  26. #26
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post

    50' of 4 colors of 20 gauge wire for the tip lights. 50' of 4 colors of 18 gauge for the landing lights. Unshielded.

    Bill
    Use 20 gauge, three conductor, shielded wire for at least the nav/strobe combos. Easier to install, each conductor already marked, and you can use the shield as the ground wire, to get the light assembly ground out of the wing and into the fuselage. Put a four pin, Molex style connector, at each light, each wing root, and at the rudder to make removal easier.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  27. #27
    aflyer's Avatar
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    Agree with Web. The shield also makes the wire tougher. I even use 1 conductor shielded wire if it has much of a run just because of this. Also, the new solid state strobes do still generate some noise.

    John
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  28. #28

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    Brad, welcome to the site! More knowledge here than you can imagine. I’m glad you grabbed a 90*. You won’t be sorry.
    You are fortunate indeed to be building with Bill, he is a treasure trove of knowledge and great ideas. I’m still in a build of my own and his first Javron build thread plus his friendship has been a great asset to me. He’s just a great guy to have for a friend anyway.
    I’ll be following along as this unfolds, stay flexible and have fun, I’m sure you will. Btw, love Sandpoint, have several other friends there.

    Cheers, Oz

  29. #29
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    I have not heard of interference or noise from the Aveo lights, and I have not had any noise on mine. I am not planning on the synchronized strobes (I can't find any data that indicates they provide better visibility) so we will only be running three wires. EVERYTHING will be grounded to a ground buss. Nothing will be grounded to the airframe. The shielded does not offer value (to me) for the increased weight. However, I have a great deal of respect for Webb, so I will make sure we can replace the wires with shielded if necessary. And I do like the quick disconnect idea. Thank you Webb and Oz.

    Bill
    Very Blessed.
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  30. #30

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    This will be an interesting and exciting thread to watch!

    On the comparison(s) mentioned in your initial post Bill, the 2+2 plans call out 39" and the Busmaster/Producer widths should be right at 40" as well. The pa-22 drawings I have note the cabin width at 40" at the widest part, right at the front of the cabin. That drawing doesn't show the doors though, so it the actual "space" in the cabin might of course differ. So if I might ask, where did you get the widths you mentioned in the initial post? I ask this question because I am very much interested in building a 2+2 from plans, and putting some "stock" wings on the thing...although I'd like to get to at least 2200 pounds gross weight. So for the 2+2 then, that would likely mean widening the fuselage a bit, and I've been researching that very thing here in the forums for more than a week now. I've seen several owners/pilots of the 2+2 recommend widening it, but only one or two who've apparently done it: One builder made theirs 1" wider, and another finished aircraft reported at 45" of width. No details were specified though, so the search for information continues.

    Very cool though that Jay's 4-place SC fuselage is 44", and I wondered about the wide of the Airframes Alaska product. I didn't know that was only 40", so thanks for providing that number as well. That's about the width of a C-172, near as I can tell (from available online references), and a C-182 appears to be a bit wider at around 42" or so.

    Thanks for starting the thread--I'll definitely be following along!

    TB
    Last edited by tcbetka; 03-18-2022 at 06:15 PM. Reason: Fixed spelling errors
    Tom Betka, CFII, A&P
    Stevens Point, WI
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  31. #31
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Just for point of reference the Airframes 4 place is 42-1/8" wide at the instrument panel/upper longeron. The floor and top deck are 40-1/2". The upper longeron level is brought out slightly to that 42-1/8" size for a little more elbow room.
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  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Just for point of reference the Airframes 4 place is 42-1/8" wide at the instrument panel/upper longeron. The floor and top deck are 40-1/2". The upper longeron level is brought out slightly to that 42-1/8" size for a little more elbow room.
    Thanks Crash. I guess I thought it would be a little wider than that, so the 39" width on the 2+2 plans maybe isn't so bad.

    TB
    Tom Betka, CFII, A&P
    Stevens Point, WI

  33. #33

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    From Javron:
    44” inside width.
    Top longerons all the way back with no gingerbread for a huge baggage area.
    24” x 25” baggage door on left side.
    Folding and removable rear seats.
    Uses stock Cub wing, lift struts, shock struts, tail surfaces, gear legs, and front seats.
    20” longer than stock fuse to increase the CG envelope.
    Single center stick with dual option.
    Hanging rudder pedals on both sides with toe brakes on left side is standard.
    Overhead flap lever on left side.
    HD extruded aluminum lift strut package.
    Dual throttles with linkage and cables.
    Enlarge round tail.
    Composite nose bowl with aluminum cowl panels. We are trying to develop a composite cowling package if time permits.
    Sheet metal boot cowl with titanium firewall.
    Electric trim.
    Routed carbon fiber floor boards.
    Tested to 2500 lbs. wings to 2300 Lbs.
    Shooting for 1230 empty.
    90” flaps and 102”ailerons.
    Extended square tip wing with 90” flap length.
    24 Gal. fuel tanks.
    Clear or tinted windshield and all side glass.
    Dual doors; split or one piece swing up.
    Conical engine mount with zero thrust angle.
    Acme Gen 3 main gear shocks.
    Grove 6” wheel and double puck brake package.
    3200 tail wheel
    Ballast brackets in tail.

    Tom
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  34. #34

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    Wow...a 20" extension in length is quite significant! The 2+2 I want to build won't be used for anything other than pleasure flying, so there won't be that sort of requirement (wife just wants to sit up front, mainly), but I know that Jay has put a lot of time and energy into developing this airframe. I saw one being built when I was over there a few years ago, but I don't remember the year. It was in its early stages though--I'm not even sure welding was completed yet.

    Can't wait to follow the progress of this project!
    Tom Betka, CFII, A&P
    Stevens Point, WI

  35. #35
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Folks

    Thanks for updating and correcting my width numbers.

    Tom - Thanks for posting that. It may change as we work out the details on this build, but it is a starting point.

    I have ordered the material for the floor boards. This is the same composite I used on my Cub. It has held up quite well in a pretty harsh environment. It is the lightest I can find. Allow me to pontificate a moment if you will. Just because someone says a part is "carbon fiber" that does not necessarily mean it is lighter, or better. The weight of parts made with a resin is highly dependent upon the quantity of resin. If there is too much resin the part will be heavy, and quite possibly heavier than an equivalent part made from aluminum. If there is too little resin it may suffer in strength properties. Vacuum bagging can certainly help but even that is no guarantee. So.......I am always skeptical when someone brags about all the Carbon fiber they have. I recently saw a post where someone was quite proud of the CF storage box they made. Their posted weight was more than an AL box and considerably heavier than the box I got from Carbon Concepts (Randy Appling). Just please keep in mind the CF is not automatically better. There are applications where it is great and there are many applications where it is not good at all. Titanium is another often touted "improvement" that may not always be better. It is more brittle that steel and may break rather than bend. Sometimes a bent part will still get you home but a broken part will result in catastrophic failure. It is great to have the freedom to experiment but please do so with your eyes open. And if you folks out there (many of whom are far more experienced and smarter than I) see me do something dumb, please call me on it.

    So back to the floorboards........

    Part of the reason I like this material is the quality. It is a manufactured flat panel that has very strict quality control so it is going to be very consistent on the weight. Unlike custom parts that could easily vary considerably in both weight and quality.

    There are three different flat panels that I used on my last cub.

    ATR-FP-121F1 - this is 1/8" thick honeycomb panel and weighs .24 pounds per sq ft. I used this on my upper baggage floor

    ATR-FP-251F1 - this is 1/4" thick single ply honeycomb panel, weighs .27 pds sq ft - I used it for floorboards and baggage floor

    ATR-FP-251F2 - this is a two ply and very strong 1/4" panel, weighs .53 pds sq ft - I used for seat bottoms and front floor boards

    We will be using ATR-FP-251F1 almost exclusively on the 4S (I think).

    Right now the price for a 4'x8' panel is 462.00 It is going to take 2 sheets for this build. The strength necessary depends on the span encountered. There are places where there are lots of underlying support so the material does not have to be as strong and there may be other applications where an unsupported span is greater and that would necessitate greater strength and perhaps use of the heavier two ply material. We will see as we go and post the results here. You can order direct, but it seems like they prefer a purchase order so you might need to get a friend with a business license to make the order for you. It is also possible that Javron will be able to supply it, and he may also be able to cut it for you....thus supplying your floorboards. I don't know about that part. But you could always ask Jay (Javron) about that option/possibility. He has the floorboard patterns in CAD and the capability to cut pretty much any material you want, wood, aluminum, CF, etc.

    The company used to be AAR but recently did a name change to Aeromatrix Composites

    their website.......https://aeromatrixcomposites.com

    The person I spoke to and dealt with is Barbra. She can be reached at 727-533-3201 (Clearwater Florida)

    I was able to download the tech spec sheets from the old website but do not see them on the new site. Here are pictures of the Tech sheets

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    Hope this helps

    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Rusk; 03-19-2022 at 01:06 PM.
    Very Blessed.
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  36. #36

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    is was sent to me by Jay a couple of weeks ago. Part of a two page PDF
    4 Place Super Cub Kit
    This is a list of the major items included in your kit

    • Fuselagecompletely welded and powder coated
    • Assembled Square tip wings with flaps and ailerons
    • 48-gallon fuel capacity (two 24-gallon wing tanks)
    • Aluminum heavy-duty wing struts and 5/8” forks
    • Jury strut assemblies
    • Split cub style doors on both sides
    • Carbon floorboards
    • Extended baggage compartment with one left side door
    • Titanium firewall
    • Landing gear and cabane V
    • Acme Aero suspension struts
    • Attach tabs for seatbelt & shoulder harness
    • Nose bowl and support rails
    • Boot cowl and Engine cowl for round or square air filter
    • Windshield (clear) & trim strips
    • Cables and pulleys for entire aircraft
    • Jack screw, yoke, and complete electric trim system
    • Toe brake pedals with master cylinders (left side)
    • Hanging rudder pedals (left & right)
    • Engine mount ( Conical or Dynafocal)
    • Centered torque tube and control stick assembly
    • Adjustable folding front seat frames (no upholstery)
    • Removable rear seat frames (no upholstery)
    • Throttle controls (firewall back)
    • Overhead flap lever assembly
    • All airframe hardware (from engine mount back)
    • Flying wires for empennage
    • Complete oversized tail surfaces (round or square)
    • Tail wheel spring
    • 6:00X6 Wheel and single puck brake set (no tires)
    • Alaska Bush wheel Tail wheel (Scott 3200 equivalent)



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    Thoughts on carbon fiber part weights. Yes, CF weights can vary with resin %. Even vacuum bagging it can vary depending on how much vacuum is applied at what point in the process. However, directly comparing one persons part to another when not privy to designed differences can be misleading. Carbon concepts standard width cub under seat storage box is light. Nice box but I wouldn’t mount a battery in it. When I built the box for my wide body cub it was going to be heavier simply because it’s 4” wider. I wanted to be able to mount my battery in the box so added two layers of CF to get the structural integrity I desired. Same with floorboards. A friend bought honeycomb core CF for floorboards. One layer of CF on each side of the honeycomb. Light stuff but dents easily. Don’t take your girlfriend for a ride if she’s wearing 4” heals. I doubled up on the CF when I built my floor. Heavier, yes, but like gluing fabric to your aluminum interior panels, there are reasons to do it, or not. I built an aluminum throttle tunnel. Then I built a CF tunnel. CF was lighter by about 2 oz. In my opinion the weight difference was not worth the significant cost differential. From an esthetic perspective it was well worth it. So, when comparing CF parts ask questions, get a sample, beat on it, drop seatbelt buckles on it, then buy or build what suits your mission.
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  38. #38
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Excellent post Ed. Well said!

    Yes, so important to build to your mission.

    Thanks

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  39. #39

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    Yeah, you can go nuts on this stuff. Most of my buddies know that the stuff I build has so much iron in it that it will swing a compass needle from 100 yards. I compensate by filling the tubing with helium. Gonna call this thing the Zeppelin cub.
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  40. #40
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    A local pilot completed a 4-place Bearhawk last fall and he used .060" Kydex for the floor boards. I was surprised they were as rigid as they were and seemed like they would be suitable. I don't know how much structure was under them but it was enough.

    Here's some weight comparisons I found for aluminum and Kydex T:

    Aluminum:
    .020” .282 pounds per sq ft
    .025” .352 “


    Kydex T;
    .028” .197 pounds per sq ft
    .040” .281 “
    .060” .421 “

    I recently purchased several sheets of .040" T from Curbell Plastics. A 4x8 sheet was just over $100. .040" works well for interior panels but I wouldn't consider it for floorboards. And .040" with color is the same weight as bare .020" aluminum......

    Kydex T is an aviation grade Kydex that has been through burn certs.

    BTW, the Bearhawk was topcoated by Hardtailjohn with Stewarts and it is a beautiful plane.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
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