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Thread: Avgas Coalition and AOPA...Avgas is an endangered species!

  1. #41
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Consider that LEAD is the problem.....as in lead into the atmosphere. Frankly, I'm amazed that some green group hasn't already sued the refiners of 100LL. When that happens, and it will eventually, if government doesn't get off it's rear, then WE have a problem.

    MTV
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Consider that LEAD is the problem.....as in lead into the atmosphere. Frankly, I'm amazed that some green group hasn't already sued the refiners of 100LL. When that happens, and it will eventually, if government doesn't get off it's rear, then WE have a problem.

    MTV
    That's one argument in our favor. Of all petroleum based fuels produced and used, avgas barely registers on percentage produced. When you consider all the pollutants put into the atmosphere in a month or year, we don't even register when compared with other sources.

    That being said, I reluctantly agree that we need to be planning for viable alternate fuels. It's just the military in me, list the 'what if's' after you make a plan. In our case 'what if' 100 LL goes away in spite of attempts to save it? What's the best replacement? Something we have right now, like mogas? A derivative? Do we need to produce something completely new? Consider that we're in the same boat as the automotive industry. We can get by with low performance fuel in a low performance aircraft engine but not in a high performance engine.

    If you want to argue, remember that if 100 LL never goes away, then we won't need to switch.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  3. #43

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    GAMI and Swift both have 100 octane fuels, GAMI even has approval for some planes already Swift is working on getting approval. The big issue as far as I can tell is the FAA won't just do or can't figure out how to do a fleet wide approval.
    DENNY
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  4. #44
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I've noticed that the airboat crowd use a lot of airplane engines. What are they using for fuel? Have they had issues? I'm suspecting they just use whatever auto fuel is handy? Is the FAA making a bigger deal out of our avgas than there needs to be? I do appreciate the stability of the avgas and use it in everything from weedwhackers to airplanes. I have had issues with the gumming up and reduction of volatility of auto gas in the past, particularly after having been stored for a few months or more. Perhaps the current ethanol auto gas doesn't do this? ???
    N1PA

  5. #45
    55-PA18A's Avatar
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    Stay tuned. From the GAMI website. The EPA is coming out with a report regarding contribution of lead in the atmosphere from aircraft burning avgas.

    https://gami.com/g100ul/g100ul.php

  6. #46
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    Industry fills market demand. The painful part with be the economics as the market settles into a new normal.
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  7. #47
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Following the exp scene like I do, whenever someone specs out a hi comp engine, built for 100 LL, I wonder if they consider discussions like this!
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  8. #48
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    Being exp @ 10-1, I have options other than 100LL. The only reason I use 100LL is I already have it for my certificated airplane.

  9. #49
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    GAMI chose not to attempt FAA Certification. As I understood it, they saw the FAA certification to be so onerous and lengthy of a process, that it wasn't worth the expense for the questionable results. They chose instead to go via STC and plan to offer a free STC to every engine possible. Does that imply that some engines may not be able to use it? Possibly.

    Swift attempted, and is still attempting to go the FAA/ASTM certification. That process has dragged out for nearly a decade. Swift has now chosen to sell STCs for their fuel for $100 per plane and now say they plan fleet wide implementation via STC. Why have both potential drop in replacements had to go the STC route rather than certification? This clearly points to a problem with the FAA and their professional foot dragging.

    MOGAS issues. The big oil producers have actively pursued running Mogas off airports. FBOs and fuelers that sell Mogas are threatened with having their supply of 100LL shut off if they don't remove the Mogas sales. I ran Mogas exclusively for 10+ years until I left NM and retired to AR using a 110 gal tank and fueling rig in the back of my pickup.

    In AR, Alcohol free premium Mogas is readily available. However, all of the stations in my area now have an injector cleaner additive in the fuel that I have found to cause as much or more damage than alcohol contaminated fuels. (details of the damage and testing on my web site) The carb and engine was fine with it, but it will dissolve pipe dope from the pipe fittings and will break down epoxy resins and any plastics or rubberized fuel lines in the fuel system. The last station in my area that was carrying clean fuel without the additives lost his source of clean Mogas a few months ago, so I have no choice but to switch to 100LL for both of my planes for now. Mogas has always had an uphill battle getting onto airports and local supplies around the country, even at gas stations it is iffy at best.

    One other issue with buying Mogas. Most pilots that use it buy at the gas station and haul it to their planes. The fuel taxes paid there go toward the state and federal highway funds rather than the Aviation trust fund. And there are no flowage fees to support the State Aviation fund or the local airport.

    100LL environmental issues. I have little doubt the environmental issues to the public from 100LL are so far below the noise level as to be negligible. However, the lead contamination many mechanics suffer continues to go untested, unreported and usually unnoticed. Mechanics routinely exposed to inhalation of lead salts from bead blasting combustion chambers and regular exposure to 100LL fuel on their skin often times have abnormally high lead levels in the bloodstream, well beyond the EPA acceptable limits, and often times with devastating effects. That grumpy mechanic that acts like a mad hatter might just be that way thanks to his chronic exposure to lead. It's only a matter of time until some smart enterprising lawyer decides to bring a class action law suite against the oil companies in behalf of the many thousands of mechanics with chronic lead exposure, that could also spell an end to 100LL and would certainly discourage the oil companies from continuing to produce it.

    100LL is a threatened and endangered species. As well it should be. If the AOPA will lead the way to support a transition away from 100LL as rapidly as possible, they will have my support. Had the FAA supported this effort, 100LL should have died out shortly after leaded autogas decades ago.

    -Cub Builder
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  10. #50
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Builder View Post
    GAMI chose not to attempt FAA Certification. As I understood it, they saw the FAA certification to be so onerous and lengthy of a process, that it wasn't worth the expense for the questionable results. They chose instead to go via STC and plan to offer a free STC to every engine possible. Does that imply that some engines may not be able to use it? Possibly.

    Swift attempted, and is still attempting to go the FAA/ASTM certification. That process has dragged out for nearly a decade. Swift has now chosen to sell STCs for their fuel for $100 per plane and now say they plan fleet wide implementation via STC. Why have both potential drop in replacements had to go the STC route rather than certification? This clearly points to a problem with the FAA and their professional foot dragging.

    MOGAS issues. The big oil producers have actively pursued running Mogas off airports. FBOs and fuelers that sell Mogas are threatened with having their supply of 100LL shut off if they don't remove the Mogas sales. I ran Mogas exclusively for 10+ years until I left NM and retired to AR using a 110 gal tank and fueling rig in the back of my pickup.

    In AR, Alcohol free premium Mogas is readily available. However, all of the stations in my area now have an injector cleaner additive in the fuel that I have found to cause as much or more damage than alcohol contaminated fuels. (details of the damage and testing on my web site) The carb and engine was fine with it, but it will dissolve pipe dope from the pipe fittings and will break down epoxy resins and any plastics or rubberized fuel lines in the fuel system. The last station in my area that was carrying clean fuel without the additives lost his source of clean Mogas a few months ago, so I have no choice but to switch to 100LL for both of my planes for now. Mogas has always had an uphill battle getting onto airports and local supplies around the country, even at gas stations it is iffy at best.

    One other issue with buying Mogas. Most pilots that use it buy at the gas station and haul it to their planes. The fuel taxes paid there go toward the state and federal highway funds rather than the Aviation trust fund. And there are no flowage fees to support the State Aviation fund or the local airport.

    100LL environmental issues. I have little doubt the environmental issues to the public from 100LL are so far below the noise level as to be negligible. However, the lead contamination many mechanics suffer continues to go untested, unreported and usually unnoticed. Mechanics routinely exposed to inhalation of lead salts from bead blasting combustion chambers and regular exposure to 100LL fuel on their skin often times have abnormally high lead levels in the bloodstream, well beyond the EPA acceptable limits, and often times with devastating effects. That grumpy mechanic that acts like a mad hatter might just be that way thanks to his chronic exposure to lead. It's only a matter of time until some smart enterprising lawyer decides to bring a class action law suite against the oil companies in behalf of the many thousands of mechanics with chronic lead exposure, that could also spell an end to 100LL and would certainly discourage the oil companies from continuing to produce it.

    100LL is a threatened and endangered species. As well it should be. If the AOPA will lead the way to support a transition away from 100LL as rapidly as possible, they will have my support. Had the FAA supported this effort, 100LL should have died out shortly after leaded autogas decades ago.

    -Cub Builder
    Well said.

    MTV

  11. #51
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    And no 27, 8 x 10, color glossies . . .

    Web
    or shovels and rakes and other implements of destruction .....

    Marty57
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Being exp @ 10-1, I have options other than 100LL. The only reason I use 100LL is I already have it for my certificated airplane.
    Can you elaborate on your "options other than 100LL"?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Builder View Post
    ....One other issue with buying Mogas. Most pilots that use it buy at the gas station and haul it to their planes. The fuel taxes paid there go toward the state and federal highway funds rather than the Aviation trust fund. And there are no flowage fees to support the State Aviation fund or the local airport.....
    In Washington, you can apply for a refund of the road tax you paid on mogas used in aircraft.
    They deduct regular sales tax & aviation tax from that refund.
    So I get a little jingle in my jeans, and also support GA-- a win/ win.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    In Washington, you can apply for a refund of the road tax you paid on mogas used in aircraft.
    They deduct regular sales tax & aviation tax from that refund.
    So I get a little jingle in my jeans, and also support GA-- a win/ win.
    Same in Idaho, I looked into it, but the paperwork involved was daunting. Your mileage and tolerance for that may differ! Same thing when I attempted to deduct the road tax from all the diesel I burn while operating my boom truck on a job site, instead of driving down the road, I was told I could, but not worth the hassle involved. There is something to be said for having as little involvement with taxing authorities as possible (keeping a low profile...) even if it costs me a few bucks.
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  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Builder View Post
    100LL is a threatened and endangered species. As well it should be. If the AOPA will lead the way to support a transition away from 100LL as rapidly as possible, they will have my support. Had the FAA supported this effort, 100LL should have died out shortly after leaded autogas decades ago.

    -Cub Builder
    I was 100% tracking with you until reaching the last couple of sentences. Disagree

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    In Washington, you can apply for a refund of the road tax you paid on mogas used in aircraft.
    They deduct regular sales tax & aviation tax from that refund.
    So I get a little jingle in my jeans, and also support GA-- a win/ win.
    Be sure and donate your tax savings to the Aviation Trust Fund for improvements to aviation facilities.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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  17. #57
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Unleaded fuel approved for all engines.

    https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...m_medium=email
    N1PA
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Unleaded fuel approved for all engines.

    https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...m_medium=email
    Yep,and guesstimated to cost a dollar more a gallon so we can probably assume twice that. No thanks
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  19. #59

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    Are they going to dye it so that there’s no confusion over pump car gas? What’s their additive to keep from pounding valve seats into the head of round engines?
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  20. #60
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Formandfunction View Post
    Yep,and guesstimated to cost a dollar more a gallon so we can probably assume twice that. No thanks
    Where did you hear it was going to be a dollar more? $1 is more than slightly. Using local prices that would be a 15% increase. The article says: "the arrival of G100LL at airports means that the fuel will cost slightly more than leaded avgas."
    N1PA

  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Where did you hear it was going to be a dollar more? $1 is more than slightly. Using local prices that would be a 15% increase. The article says: "the arrival of G100LL at airports means that the fuel will cost slightly more than leaded avgas."
    The gami website says $.85 and I rounded it to a dollar out of anger. From my experience I have never ever once seen anything come to market as predicted.
    From my experience I'm guessing it will come in at $1.00-$1.85 more.
    However I don't see how big oil will allow a private patent holder to take any part of their business no matter how small. My prediction is that the oil companies will step in with their own fuel when it becomes a real issue. They haven't yet because 100ll has a higher profit margin.
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  22. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Formandfunction View Post
    However I don't see how big oil will allow a private patent holder to take any part of their business no matter how small. My prediction is that the oil companies will step in with their own fuel when it becomes a real issue. They haven't yet because 100ll has a higher profit margin.
    I had a good friend (gone west) who was a retired senior Vp of research for one of the "biggest oil" companies. I wish he was still here so we could discuss this.
    N1PA
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  23. #63
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    Since there are several other folks working on the 100LL replacement, hopefully this is just the first of a few announcements in the coming years. I doubt Gami got into this with altruistic intentions, they are there to make some money (and have likely spent a fair bit getting it to this point - like any other STC holder). As for big oil, I suspect it won't be Gami producing this stuff - they will just be tacking on their own earnings per gallon for bringing the product to market. I'm not deep on what sets this fuel apart from non-ethanol car gas, but I suspect food coloring and stabilizer at a minimum.

    Most of us won't use it until we have to, but the more we use it, (hopefully) the less expensive it will get.

    sj
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  24. #64
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    George Braley has stated Exxon is on board

    Quote Originally Posted by Formandfunction View Post
    The gami website says $.85 and I rounded it to a dollar out of anger. From my experience I have never ever once seen anything come to market as predicted.
    From my experience I'm guessing it will come in at $1.00-$1.85 more.
    However I don't see how big oil will allow a private patent holder to take any part of their business no matter how small. My prediction is that the oil companies will step in with their own fuel when it becomes a real issue. They haven't yet because 100ll has a higher profit margin.

  25. #65

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    I watched the video. I am supportive right now.

    Sounds to me like they take a certain fuel stock and add GAMI's secret potion to it. It seems like this will make it easy to blend worldwide. This will open up general aviation to parts of the world that are now without, and then it will drive up demand and in the end improve economies of scale and decreased production on a per gallon basis.....so everyone can win. But I might be wrong, I often am. But Thats ok.

    In the video George says The fuel blend will be priced competitively. It's been said that this is the most thoroughly tested STC thats come through the Wichita office. GAMI took a risk, paid for R&D, deserves to make pay off there debt, recoup cost, and produce income from this.
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  26. #66
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    To all the above 65 posts:
    Crawl into a beanbag chair with a bowl of ice cream, turn the TV up loud, and don't think about it.
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"
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  27. #67
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    My concern is the rapid degradation and moisture content of current fuels not sold for aviation.

    If they will sell us a fuel with a shelf life longer than 30 days, that is not full of water I am on board. That is my reason for using 100LL in most things, including sleds, bike and chainsaw.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  28. #68
    Grand Pooh Bah soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    Why do you have pipe dope, plastics and epoxy resins in your fuel system? Isn't that stuff well known to be a problem? My fuel system (certified admittedly) has rubber and aluminum lines and nothing else. Are you running rotax?

    My local airport sells both ethanol free mogas and 100LL and have never heard them say anything about them being threatened about it. Most airports I ask about mogas are a) completely ignorant of it or b) dont' have another storage tank or vehicle to be able to offer it.

    My problem with the replacements (now there's 2-3 more of them swift/gami etc) will create yet another type of fuel with more storage tanks needed and in the interim we will have 100LL and GAMI/Swift at the same time which will be a problem. Most of us with low compression engines would be happier with the CHEAPER with ethanol free mogas. That's been around and been running problem free for decades.

    I think we all ought to have demanded ethanol free mogas be made available FIRST, since it's already here and demonstrated to be safe and reliable for all the low compression engines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Builder View Post
    MOGAS issues. The big oil producers have actively pursued running Mogas off airports. FBOs and fuelers that sell Mogas are threatened with having their supply of 100LL shut off if they don't remove the Mogas sales. I ran Mogas exclusively for 10+ years until I left NM and retired to AR using a 110 gal tank and fueling rig in the back of my pickup.

    In AR, Alcohol free premium Mogas is readily available. However, all of the stations in my area now have an injector cleaner additive in the fuel that I have found to cause as much or more damage than alcohol contaminated fuels. (details of the damage and testing on my web site) The carb and engine was fine with it, but it will dissolve pipe dope from the pipe fittings and will break down epoxy resins and any plastics or rubberized fuel lines in the fuel system. The last station in my area that was carrying clean fuel without the additives lost his source of clean Mogas a few months ago, so I have no choice but to switch to 100LL for both of my planes for now. Mogas has always had an uphill battle getting onto airports and local supplies around the country, even at gas stations it is iffy at best.

    -----snip

    -Cub Builder
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