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Thread: Pumping gas from containers into the wings while on the ground

  1. #1

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    Pumping gas from containers into the wings while on the ground

    Is there such a thing as a cute little electric motor pump that could hook to my a/c battery that would allow me to pump my Bushwheel bladder containers into my airplane's gas tanks while on the ground vs put them on the wings and screw up my VGs etc.? Thought out and safe and grounded etc.

  2. #2

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    I am sure you could rig up a simple 12 volt pump. The hard part would be trying to hold the bag while stuff is being pumped out. I see a lot of guys lay a towel on the wing for setting bags and cans on. DENNY

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    stewartb's Avatar
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    I’ve used Congo pumps for fuel oil for 30 years. I occasionally look to see if they come up with a gasoline pump, but nothing yet.

    https://www.bluebottlemarine.com/pro...tric-pump.html

  4. #4
    gdafoe's Avatar
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    Holley 12-812-1 - Holley Blue Electric Fuel Pumps

    I think that is the one I have. Got it on ebay for a much better price. Be careful about switches, connection, and sparks! ...could mess up your day. There is one on ebay right now for $100 used.
    Gerald

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    courierguy's Avatar
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    I've been doing so for the last 20 years, using mogas exclusively, even on XC's. I have a high volume (race car type, about $125.00) fuel pump, permanently bolted to the floor below the passenger seat of my exp. Wired into the panel, with a idiot light showing when it's on. I teed into the main feed line coming out of my header tank, to a shut off valve under my seat (reachable while flying), once the valve is open a self sealing quick disconnect prevent any leaks, until the reciprocal end of the quick disconnect is plugged into the 36" long rubber hose with a screened intake fitting on the end of it. My bush bag is suspended from the over head structure via a bent 1/4" rod (or I can pump out of ANY container, even an open bucket..., on the ground, just a bit more work for the pump) and while the pump is emptying the bag I have a smoke or otherwise kill 4 or 5 minutes. That's a joke. I watch the wing tank sight gauges, and when the wings are full I quit pumping, I haven't spilled a single drop of fuel in 20 years using this method, or caught on fire or blown up. A bonus is the marine bladder tank (Natua brand) I have as a ferry tank, I can transfer fuel while flying out of it. Did I mention this was on an experimental?! Edit: Obviously, this method totally eliminates any need for any lifting up onto the wing. I also burn at most 4 GPH, so 5 gallons means more to me then you maybe, but a scaled up version is what I would do if I had higher fuel needs.

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    stewartb's Avatar
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    If you can’t manhandle 30# onto a wing? It may be time to try knitting. Seriously.
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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Fit a clear tube from your bag to the tank filler. Then step on the bag.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    If you can’t manhandle 30# onto a wing? It may be time to try knitting. Seriously.
    I used to manhandle 30 and 50 gallon oil drums into the back of pickup trucks. My doc tells me that's why my lower back is so shot.

    But I have tried knitting. I've gotten pretty good at it. Spinning, too.

    I still can lift five gallons straight out with one hand, but I like the idea of pumping. Saves knees.
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    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Battery, jumper wires, fuel pump, no static ground lead, bushwheel bags...what could go wrong?

    In all seriousness I'm with Stewart on this one. 30 minutes of doing some upper body exercise each day would be my vote over jury rigging some pump.

  10. #10
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    The heft of 30 lb and the distance to the floor each get greater each year, and each can always matter for those with non age-related difficulties. Please be grateful if those are not a problem for you.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO

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    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Battery, jumper wires, fuel pump, no static ground lead, bushwheel bags...what could go wrong?

    In all seriousness I'm with Stewart on this one. 30 minutes of doing some upper body exercise each day would be my vote over jury rigging some pump.
    I agree on the jury rig part, but I know you can fashion a setup with ground/bonding lead, self contained sealed battery pack and shielded pump, drawing from some decent container.

    In the 70s we used a diaphram pump with a wired hose to fuel gasoline combines. One quart per stroke, but it was easier than lifting cans 7 feet high.

  12. #12

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    If you installed a pump and plumbing for a belly fuel pod, and included a outboard type quick release and hose you could make a bushwheel bag cap adapted to that it might be simpler than trying to fill through the top. Nothing wrong with not wanting to climb up on wet frozen gear when you got some mileage on the bones!! Sometimes Attlee tanks don't look so bad after all. DENNY
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  13. #13
    JP
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Battery, jumper wires, fuel pump, no static ground lead, bushwheel bags...what could go wrong?

    In all seriousness I'm with Stewart on this one. 30 minutes of doing some upper body exercise each day would be my vote over jury rigging some pump.
    Is building a safe pump system any different than me pulling up in my pickup truck with 100 gallon tank in the bed and then hooking up my 12 volt battery cables to my pickup battery and then pulling out a 50' rubber hose across the ground and stepping up onto my bird and fueling her. NO its not. There is no good reason to not do this.
    here is a good start to my portable fuel pump so im not blowing out my worn out back either throwing bags up onto the wing.
    ordered it already will give a pirep when i get home. ill use get a cap and install the fitting thru the cap just like the pour spout is for our fuel bags will leave the cap in the fuel box with pump when done.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XD7HG63/ref=emc_b_5_i?th=1
    Last edited by eskflyer; 01-22-2022 at 05:29 AM. Reason: added

  14. #14
    cubdrvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Battery, jumper wires, fuel pump, no static ground lead, bushwheel bags...what could go wrong?
    Back in the '80s a buddy of mine sold a J-3 and delivered it to AK.
    Left here with a 30 gal. drum in the front seat, 1" hose from the hand pump on the drum to the fuel tank.
    Fuel gets low..........just pump in some more.
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"
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  15. #15
    SJ's Avatar
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    How about one of those drill pumps and a cordless drill? Have to have one that is OK for fuel.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  16. #16
    JP
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    uhmmmm NO! cordless drill is not a safe way to go. Fumes and sparking from motor armature and brushes not good. Im not doing that lol.
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  17. #17
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Back in the day, when I fueled from “cans” a lot, I ALWAYS incorporated in my fueling apparatus a good filtration system.

    Now, I hear people talking about laying fuel bags on a wing and draining into a tank. Does ANYone filter fuel from cans these days?

    Sparks and fumes can certainly put an exclamation point on an otherwise nice day. A wee bit of water or gunk in a gas tank can have an equally ugly result.

    If you put together something like this, at what point does the clap trap exceed the cabin space of the airplane?

    MTV
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    Back in the '80s a buddy of mine sold a J-3 and delivered it to AK.
    Left here with a 30 gal. drum in the front seat, 1" hose from the hand pump on the drum to the fuel tank.
    Fuel gets low..........just pump in some more.
    This "system" was pretty common years ago. You just hoped that a Transport Canada inspector was not around.

    I once helped to ferry a Norseman to a fishing lodge north of Cambridge Bay and we had a 45 gallon (55 US) drum in the cabin with a wobble-pump. Hose duct-taped to the wing. I was the pumper.

    I rarely have to refuel in a remote location. I carry enough in the tanks to complete the mission and refuel from drums at my hangar with an electric pump and a step-ladder.

    My knees and lower back are shot from the young and and foolish days when we competed to see how many sheets of 3/4-inch plywood we could carry from the truck to the job site. I dislike fueling the wing but a strategically-placed handle or two on the boot cowl and some non-skid on the step aids my confidence.
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  19. #19

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    A buddy of mine uses a set up similar to what eskflyer showed the link to. It’s slightly different, but works quite well. There are options out there, I think his came from the ATV/UTV community.

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    I think I should've put in bigger tanks, when they just rebuilt my beautiful new wings, but I am going to watch of bunch of the Red/Green shows and see if he has something on this.
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  21. #21
    cubdrvr's Avatar
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    I've seen this 12 gal. tank in the baggage area of a cub.........line to right tank and 12v transfer pump to cig lighter.
    https://barndoorag.com/ace-roto-mold...%7C%20%2498.75
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"

  22. #22
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Check out the fuel pumps at Summit Racing and other hot rod web sites. The pumps made for high horsepower race engine are cheap and readily available. Make your own "dipstick", with a screened inlet, easy peasy.

    The thing I never liked about filling with jugs from up top, besides the dripping spouts, lifting, etc., is that when I was up there.....I couldn't see the site gauges in the wing tanks. So, I'd either have to jump and down and check, or, and this happened more often then not, in an effort to max out my capacity, add just a little bit more and sure as heck, dump fuel all over the wing.
    Pumping is the lazy man's way to re-fuel. If there is a static hazard....I have not found it yet,(or it hasn't found me) and it's been 24 years not 20 of me doing it this way, almost all my re-fueling is done this way, 200 hours a year, 4 gallons an hour. My ultralight XC background got me thinking of this method, (landing somewhere, not an airport, before bush bags and no room for jugs, scrounge up a borrowed jug to get gas, but the spout drips or is missing, pumping makes a spout of any sort immaterial) when I got into "real" airplanes it was a natural for me to continue to handle my own re-fueling needs, using mo gas exclusively.
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  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Back in the day, when I fueled from “cans” a lot, I ALWAYS incorporated in my fueling apparatus a good filtration system.

    Now, I hear people talking about laying fuel bags on a wing and draining into a tank. Does ANYone filter fuel from cans these days?

    Sparks and fumes can certainly put an exclamation point on an otherwise nice day. A wee bit of water or gunk in a gas tank can have an equally ugly result.

    If you put together something like this, at what point does the clap trap exceed the cabin space of the airplane?

    MTV
    I think I have only tried to filter my fuel at the wing a handful of times over 16 years. Most all of my fuel comes from the tank on my truck which has a Waterblock filter. I am the only one that fills my bags and cans which I also do from my truck tank. The rest of the fuel comes from Tanker trucks/hard sites with filters. I have never had a problem with water or crap in the fuel but do wonder if that bug is just in the grass waiting to bite! My backup is a RIGHT/LEFT/OFF/OFF fuel selector so I am not cross contaminating tanks. I am impressed with anyone that can balance on a bushwheel and short step while keeping a can clear of the wing to pour into a funnel without getting half the can on the wing and down your arm. If I am using a hard plastic 6 gal can (Buddy picked up a pallet of them coming through Canada) I just set it on the wing and use a jiggle hose. Otherwise I just lay the bushwheel bag on the wing and open the valve, if you only need a few gallons to top a tank the bag is the way to do it.
    DENNY
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    I think I should've put in bigger tanks, when they just rebuilt my beautiful new wings, but I am going to watch of bunch of the Red/Green shows and see if he has something on this.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=7enN10ZRPz8&feature=share

    You’ll need to make a duct tape run
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  25. #25
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskflyer View Post
    Is building a safe pump system any different than me pulling up in my pickup truck with 100 gallon tank in the bed and then hooking up my 12 volt battery cables to my pickup battery and then pulling out a 50' rubber hose across the ground and stepping up onto my bird and fueling her. NO its not. There is no good reason to not do this.
    here is a good start to my portable fuel pump so im not blowing out my worn out back either throwing bags up onto the wing.
    ordered it already will give a pirep when i get home. ill use get a cap and install the fitting thru the cap just like the pour spout is for our fuel bags will leave the cap in the fuel box with pump when done.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XD7HG63/ref=emc_b_5_i?th=1
    Yes, I would say that having a 50 foot hose and pumping from a truck bed tank is a lot different than a 8 foot hose connected to a small fuel pump close to the (potentially leaky) fuel cap of a gas can or bag.

  26. #26
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    I think I have only tried to filter my fuel at the wing a handful of times over 16 years. Most all of my fuel comes from the tank on my truck which has a Waterblock filter. I am the only one that fills my bags and cans which I also do from my truck tank. The rest of the fuel comes from Tanker trucks/hard sites with filters. I have never had a problem with water or crap in the fuel but do wonder if that bug is just in the grass waiting to bite! My backup is a RIGHT/LEFT/OFF/OFF fuel selector so I am not cross contaminating tanks. I am impressed with anyone that can balance on a bushwheel and short step while keeping a can clear of the wing to pour into a funnel without getting half the can on the wing and down your arm. If I am using a hard plastic 6 gal can (Buddy picked up a pallet of them coming through Canada) I just set it on the wing and use a jiggle hose. Otherwise I just lay the bushwheel bag on the wing and open the valve, if you only need a few gallons to top a tank the bag is the way to do it.
    DENNY
    Yeah, heaven knows how that was ever accomplished . When you get out of town a ways, and iare working, you sometimes can’t carry a “load” AND carry a couple (or five) cans or bags of gas. So, you go out there with a load (not just a couple) five gallon cans, and you cache them somewhere, for future reference. Then, a couple weeks (or six months) later, you stop in again to add a few of those precious gallons of gas. That is if a pesky bear or slimy pilot hadn’t already been there.

    THEN, you haul those things up on a wing, along with your chamois equipped funnel and fill er up.

    And, yes, a wee bit of gas on the hands is often a byproduct of this process. Which is why I never wore my Sunday-Go-To-Meetin clothes while flying.

    Maybe all of us need to spend more time at the gym……I know I do.

    MTV
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  27. #27
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Using a funnel is easier if the funnel locks into the filler neck. With no wobble or tilting it’s easy to tip a plastic jug while the weight rests on the wing. When it gets low enough to stop flowing the jug is lighter and easy to handle. My funnel is more about managing static than contamination.

    Static management with conventional pumps and hoses is pretty simple. On that little gas-stealer pump? Not so much.

  28. #28
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    As I mature it takes 2-3 trips to fill a wing tank it used to take just one. I got all day to do a day's work.

    Gary
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  29. #29
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Pumping out of a jug or bag, that's in contact with the plane, would seem to offer no more static concerns then when fuel is normally being moved when in flight. As long as one doesn't drop a match down the bag spout the dip stick is in.
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  30. #30
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    Pumping out of a jug or bag, that's in contact with the plane, would seem to offer no more static concerns then when fuel is normally being moved when in flight. As long as one doesn't drop a match down the bag spout the dip stick is in.
    It depends. On a plastic can or bag, a static charge CAN build up on the entire surface of the container. Just putting that container in contact with the airframe only equalizes the charge between the plane and the portion of the container that’s in contact with the airframe. So, there can still be significant static charge on the rest of that container, which COULD provide an unpleasant surprise. What are the odds? Pretty low. But not zero.

    I’ve fueled from plastic cans, but I never assume there’s no risk.

    MTV
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  31. #31
    JP
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    So for the first guy who asked the ?. "THE KID" I will PM you and let you know how well this works.

  32. #32
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    It depends. On a plastic can or bag, a static charge CAN build up on the entire surface of the container. Just putting that container in contact with the airframe only equalizes the charge between the plane and the portion of the container that’s in contact with the airframe. So, there can still be significant static charge on the rest of that container, which COULD provide an unpleasant surprise. What are the odds? Pretty low. But not zero.

    I’ve fueled from plastic cans, but I never assume there’s no risk.

    MTV
    One winter I picked up a five gallon full plastic can to fill the garden tractor snow plow. As I lifted it up, the hairs on my arm stood up. I touched some steel on the door and the hairs went down. There was the slightest spark between my fingers and the door.

    Made me think about things.

  33. #33

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    Eskflyer, I too am going to order that pump you suggested. Looks good. I didn't quite understand what you were doing with the cap so send me pictures so I can duplicate. And think of this; it's 2 am in the morning and you're out in the bush or backcountry and your parked next to a guy with Dodge's 30 gallon tanks. You need gas and he has plenty. With a little extra hose you can get all you need and not even have to have carried those troublesome gas bags and he'll never know as when you have 60 gallons of gas who ever checks what they have cause they have plenty.
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    I extended my jiggle hose so I can get fuel from my hunting partners 185. DENNY
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  35. #35
    55-PA18A's Avatar
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    Let us know how all these jiggle hoses, pumps, bags, etc work in cold weather. Real cold weather.

    Jim

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    Pretty sure I have used my jiggle hose down to zero degrees, no problem. DENNY

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55-PA18A View Post
    Let us know how all these jiggle hoses, pumps, bags, etc work in cold weather. Real cold weather.

    Jim
    The "jiggle" part works fine but most (all?) have vinyl hose which gets impossibly stiff in the cold. I've been trying to source some surgical rubber tubing of the correct size to replace the vinyl.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by 55-PA18A View Post
    Let us know how all these jiggle hoses, pumps, bags, etc work in cold weather. Real cold weather.

    Jim
    I replaced the tubing on a few with Tygon. It remains flexible in way below zero temps. The vinyl tubing is about worthless below freezing. The pink anti-static is slightly better than standard vinyl. I have one of my 1-1/4” guzzlers with Tygon. It’s my winter fuel transfer tool of choice. It’ll drain a 15 gallon jug faster than I can stage the next one.

    My Congo pump is for diesel and it uses black fuel and oil hose similar to gas station fuel hose. No problem for winter use.
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  39. #39
    JP
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    Eskflyer, I too am going to order that pump you suggested. Looks good. I didn't quite understand what you were doing with the cap so send me pictures so I can duplicate. And think of this; it's 2 am in the morning and you're out in the bush or backcountry and your parked next to a guy with Dodge's 30 gallon tanks. You need gas and he has plenty. With a little extra hose you can get all you need and not even have to have carried those troublesome gas bags and he'll never know as when you have 60 gallons of gas who ever checks what they have cause they have plenty.
    OMG , I would never put "DODGE" fuel in my airplane , dont ya know how dangerous that is , You must use Ford and on the one off Chevy fuel but never DODGE.
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  40. #40

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    You can buy a Brushless cordless drill that produces no sparks. Drill pumps work great!!

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