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Thread: What Knot to Do AKA Securing AC in Extreme Weather - AKA Crazy Winds on the HDHP on WED 1/12/22

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    SJ's Avatar
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    What Knot to Do AKA Securing AC in Extreme Weather - AKA Crazy Winds on the HDHP on WED 1/12/22

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    Wednesday night (for us Central timers) Wed afternoon for those folks out west - pictures and video of how 90mph winds effect your plane when it is tied down outside and how to properly secure your plane in case of such conditions!

    8pm EST
    7pm CST
    6pm MST
    5pm PST
    4pm AST
    etc...

    Join us or watch it later on YouTube! Here is the link with the details: https://www.supercub.org/HDHP
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
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    SJ's Avatar
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    Folks this is this evening! DENNY and a few other folks will be chiming in on this discussion - which starts out with some carnage pics and video.

    See ya then!

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
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    It was a wonderful program thank you


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
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    Narwhal's Avatar
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    Great Video! I'm lucky to have a hangar in Scooter7779H's complex, but am definitely interested in keeping the proper gear for trips away from home.

    I have some marine grade nylon rope that I'm currently using for my Cessna that I sourced locally: https://www.westmarine.com/buy/seafi...04?recordNum=2

    I'm not sure how well it'd hold up in Palmer type winds.

    When my carbon cub comes this summer I am definitely interested in having the best ropes I can get though. Taking your recommendations of static climbing ropes, would any of the products listed below be better than some of the others?

    https://www.backcountrygear.com/clim...e/static-rope/

    I was thinking of ordering some of this (seems to be rated for about 7000 lbs):

    https://www.backcountrygear.com/11-0...rmance-static/

    Also, do you guys recommend a full mesh wing cover with the spoilers for summer (and/or to throw on before a big winter wind) then a separate set of solid wing covers for winter/shoulder season overnight frost prevention?

    Is the solid wing cover with spoilers and a vent strip sufficient as a do-it-all? Or is it too much of a compromise?
    Last edited by Narwhal; 01-13-2022 at 08:43 AM.

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    jrussl's Avatar
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    It was a great program with lots of practical info. Thank you to Denny, Scooter, Andy, SJ, and all those that submitted pics and video!

    I am so glad that the winds don't blow like that locally in Wisconsin.

    Jeff
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    I usually recommend no covers in the Summer, Just more chance for them to beat up the wing. I carry full mesh with lift blocks when I travel just for wind protection if needed. I have a hanger so whatever plane is outside (cub/180) can be brought in to thaw. So unless I am on a trip no wing covers then also. I like the full mesh, wing is not as clean when you pull them off, but I have seen the other freeze to the wing. The others park and fly from outside more than I do so I would take there advice over mine. Rope looks like it should do the job stop by REI or one of the climbing stores and see how it ties.
    DENNY
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    A few things I forgot to mention. I always mark my duckbills with some kind of tape so the next guy/gal can use them. I have also found if you see a set of tracks somewhere that look like a strip is use even 3-4 times a year you will usually fine one or two tie downs at the end, just make sure they look good. DENNY
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    I am glad Scooter and Andy made it to the presentation they both have a lot more time working in real big winds than I do. Interesting to see all 3 of us carry pretty much the same gear and never fly without it!!
    DENNY
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    stewartb's Avatar
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    I hate mesh covers. When I used to park outside at Hood and I'd be out of state for weeks I'd put the mesh covers over the top of solids. Not for the spoilers but because the mesh covers kept the solids from flapping in the wind.

    I get my climbing rope from AK Mountaineering and Hiking or REI. Climbing rope comes with data tags that identify working load, at least it does when you buy a full skein. I prefer 12mm but also have 10mm rope. Another benefit of climbing rope is it holds knots exceptionally well.
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    I had to look up AKA. Does it have an Alaska connotation (AK)?

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    Mike brought up lashing 2x4 to rear struts, newer crowd doesn't seam to realize how that can save a Cub tailed into a big wind........ (Or 20" of wet snow) Also about digging in tapered holes to pull plane into to get rid of AOA of big tires. Common on Pennisula in 70/80's. Andy told story of the trooper that had wing come off but didn't mention that the attach bracket that holds wing on had riped into first hole up on the spar like it always does........... Atlees beef up kit would
    have saved that plane. Cheap and easy install even covered. Absolute nessasary if parking in open area where
    it can get up over 40. An old trick Johnny Swiss told me was to drive a Deadman out in front of the prop then run rope back to around back of prop, acts like bungee in big winds. Just for general reference, we used to tie Cubs to a full drum of fuel under each wing. I have had Cubs drag them right down a beach, and then lift them right off the ground easily in wind over 40. They would not hold a Cub in big wind..... That's what your dealing with.
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    55-PA18A's Avatar
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    I enjoyed the presentation. It was the first I've watched. I'm a firm believer in the Hurricane Tie Down. I'd be interested in what others with this mod are using for the shackle. Where did you get it and what is it's rated strength?

    Jim
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    stewartb's Avatar
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    Stainless. West Marine. The working strength is more than my wings can produce.

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    spinner2's Avatar
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    That was a great presentation. The sharing of experience is appreciated.

    Two questions came to mind; on a plane like a Cub with an adjustable horizontal stabilizer, what is the preferred position? Secondly do you lock your brakes?

    I was taught as a student pilot to pull the stick back and loop the seatbelt around it when parked. I no longer do that, now I put in full nose down trim to reduce AOA if the tail wants to fly. And I always lock the brakes.

    I’ll mention that I’ve also left the tail loose to do what it will in a big blow and moved the stake normally used on the tail to a position about under the spinner and tied to the cabane along with the wing struts.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
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    It's a windy day in north Texas, so it seemed like a good time to watch this on youtube. About naming the tiedown knot we all use, F.E. Potts called it the hurricane hitch in his book. It can be called a taught-line hitch, but there are some variations in what people call a taught-line, depending on exactly where you put the second loop. The midshipman's hitch has the second loop in a locking position. A taught-line hitch may or may not.

    Check out animatedknots.com

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    I was looking through some posts and I would say a midshipman knot would be the best description. Most of us put that lower hitch in the final knot. A taught-line hitch is a sliding knot that does not have the lock in on the second throw. DENNY

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    I usually land with full or close to full nose up trim so I tend to leave it here. If you know it is going to blow it is a good time to think about just how you want to set it for situation that day. Letting the tail fly is not a bad ideal but I would put a leash on it. and be very careful how the prop sets. If it turns vertical it can hit the ground and become expensive. I saw that happen on a Stinson that was dropped of at IA's hanger on the weekend it went on the end of the line with little wind protection. They only tied down the wings and it got the prop when the tail started to fly. I think it was more of a quartering wind than a direct nose wind that caught the tail and just kept lifting it. I don't have brake locks but I do block the wheels with rocks sometimes so it does not shift/spin in the tie down. DENNY

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    I use external gust locks on flaps-ailerons and no locks on the tail. Rudder springs buffer any shock to the rudder and elevators are free to do what they want. I don’t touch elevator trim due to wind. It stays where it was when I shut down. For Cubs the best practice anyone can do is turn the plane into the wind as best you can. Wind on the tail destroys Cubs.

  19. #19
    Flyingde's Avatar
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    What’s a good TBO on a typical rope?

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    Too many variables to say. How much time is spent out in the sun, is a plane mostly in the hanger with the ropes in the plane, is the rope treated gently and not tied to sharp edges, I have had the same set of ropes for 15 years. It’s time to be replacing mine, I have seen some go bad in a year but they were usually cheap rope left outside and treated poorly.
    DENNY
    Last edited by DENNY; 01-19-2022 at 11:24 AM.
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    Climbing rope manufacturers say 10 years from date of manufacture regardless of use, and the more it’s used the shorter the life. Not directly applicable, but you can read lots of info if you google it. The big enemies of climbing rope are water and dirt, and I’m like most outdoor parking pilots, I untie and toss the ropes on the dirt. My ropes get wet and dirty. When I see abrasion where the ropes are tied or notice the rope is getting stiff I replace.

  22. #22
    mvivion's Avatar
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    I’ve said it before, but…..the single best thing you can do for a plane tied outside in a big wind event is to go out there and tend your airplane!!

    I realize that airplane owners travel and life sometimes prevents us from tending our planes, but…..

    I lived and worked in Kodiak for eight years, and owned or operated three airplanes, all of which lived outdoors. I spent many a night sitting in my truck, parked in front of one plane, and regularly checking tiedowns, gust locks, and general security of those three airplanes. Some of those were long and pretty miserable nights. But none of those planes were damaged.

    During that time, however, several planes were seriously damaged and a few essentially totalled by wind damage. In one case, a SC next to mine, tail to the wind, started to buckle one rear lift strut. I got under that wing and managed to stop it from folding completely. After what seemed like a long time, a police officer came by and helped. He got on the radio and told dispatch to call the owner at home. He eventually showed up, by which time we’d pretty much got the situation stabilized.

    So, good lines (technically, “rope” is stuff on a spool, once it’s put to use, it’s a “line”….sorry, old Navy habits), good gust locks, facing the plane in best direction are all critical, but, if it’s blowing, get in your car, drive out to the airport and tend your plane. Sometimes, just parking a vehicle in front of the plane is enough to salvage the day.

    If you’re going to be out of town a lot, develop good relations with the folks who own planes near you……

    MTV
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    MTV - so the plane with tail into the wind I assume it wasn’t possible to spin it around so it faced into the wind at the time. Is adding support to the rear struts the only thing possible at that time? Just reading post more, I guess the owner could have parked his vehicle to block some of the wind…

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    stewartb's Avatar
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    When the wind is blowing 100 mph it’s very dangerous to be outside, and as for airplanes tied down? There’s nothing you can do. Your opportunity to do anything passed when the winds exceeded the 70 mph range, and baby sitting planes in 70 mph wind is also dangerous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboBeaver View Post
    Mike brought up lashing 2x4 to rear struts, newer crowd doesn't seam to realize how that can save a Cub tailed into a big wind........ (Or 20" of wet snow) Also about digging in tapered holes to pull plane into to get rid of AOA of big tires. Common on Pennisula in 70/80's. Andy told story of the trooper that had wing come off but didn't mention that the attach bracket that holds wing on had riped into first hole up on the spar like it always does........... Atlees beef up kit would
    have saved that plane. Cheap and easy install even covered. Absolute nessasary if parking in open area where
    it can get up over 40. An old trick Johnny Swiss told me was to drive a Deadman out in front of the prop then run rope back to around back of prop, acts like bungee in big winds. Just for general reference, we used to tie Cubs to a full drum of fuel under each wing. I have had Cubs drag them right down a beach, and then lift them right off the ground easily in wind over 40. They would not hold a Cub in big wind..... That's what your dealing with.

    Polly Creek Johnny Swiss? Have not heard that name in awhile. We used to set net on Chisik but Johnny would drop by time to time to chat with dad.

  26. #26
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    When the wind is blowing 100 mph it’s very dangerous to be outside, and as for airplanes tied down? There’s nothing you can do. Your opportunity to do anything passed when the winds exceeded the 70 mph range, and baby sitting planes in 70 mph wind is also dangerous.
    Yes, it can be hazardous…..maybe wear that batters helmet you’re using in your plane. Having a vehicle parked in front of, or as appropriate, behind a plane can help a lot. Sitting IN that vehicle, monitoring events MAY allow you to make quick adjustments that can save the day. And, just a point: Winds rarely approach those velocities, so most times winds aren’t nearly as dangerous.

    That said, I worked outside all day to protect a half built building in Cold Bay, with NWS “sustained” winds of 102. Nobody ever claimed I was the brightest bulb in the fixture. But, I was smart enough never to play hockey, which is far more hazardous to ones well being.

    MTV
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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavePA11 View Post
    MTV - so the plane with tail into the wind I assume it wasn’t possible to spin it around so it faced into the wind at the time. Is adding support to the rear struts the only thing possible at that time? Just reading post more, I guess the owner could have parked his vehicle to block some of the wind…
    This was middle of the night….2 AM, and I was the only person at the Municipal airport, so, turning that plane around was impossible by myself. Once the police showed up, he called for help, someone brought a couple 2 x 4s, I grabbed lines and we wrapped those boards tightly to rear struts. City brought up a truck, and parked behind that Cub. Just wasn’t practical to turn around in REALLY gusty and high winds. AS I recall, there was some bent tail feathers, but relatively minor, considering.

    That night, I watched (from a distance) a practically new 185 on floats at the other end of the parking area break a line, and beat itself to junk when it spun around and hit the nearby rock face. Next day, I looked at the tiedowns on that plane: junk frayed poly. Broke my heart, but nothing you could do but stay out of its way at that point.

    In public outside parking, you don’t always have a choice which direction your plane points. But, you can, as Stewart pointed out, at least do your best to secure the plane before the wind picks up.

    Ive partially sunk floats when out of town on floats. Huge PITA, but nothing like the shoulder/arm workout pumping those floats OUT the next day! Then of course, a sleepless night tending the plane.

    But, when it’s your ride back to what we call civilization? Small price to pay.

    MTV
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  28. #28
    stewartb's Avatar
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    My testimony? A human being’s limit to support a wing when the wind’s from behind and a strut is failing is about 50 mph. I held one at 45 mph and it took everything I had, and the whole time I was very aware that there was no escape from under that wing until help came.

    In the 2003 100+ mph storm I watched wings on Cubs fold on both sides of my Cessna. No way anyone would get close to those planes at that moment. All it took to convince me to go home was having Cub parts flying by my head at 100 mph.

  29. #29
    akavidflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Ive partially sunk floats when out of town on floats. Huge PITA, but nothing like the shoulder/arm workout pumping those floats OUT the next day! Then of course, a sleepless night tending the plane.

    But, when it’s your ride back to what we call civilization? Small price to pay.

    MTV

    A cordless drill with a pump on it is a small weight penalty and pays huge when you have to fill or pump floats out.
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    As a guy who mostly flies to and from airports, the best new idea I got was to use carabiners. I went to REI the day after watching this.
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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akavidflyer View Post
    A cordless drill with a pump on it is a small weight penalty and pays huge when you have to fill or pump floats out.
    I rigged up a small electric pump right after I performed this very "trick" on a Beaver......geeezzzz! Carried that thing around for years. This was before there were "cordless drills". Same concept, though.

    MTV
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    55-PA18A's Avatar
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    Steve Johnson. Did I hear correctly you don't allow plane owners to tie their planes down INTO the wind when at New Holstein?

    Carabiner users. Do you use the locking carabiners, or just spring gate?

    The suggestion about a length of cable with eyelet and cable clamps was great. Have found cut off cables many times right where I wanted to tie down. Will be making some of these and keeping in the tool kit.

    Jim
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    SJ's Avatar
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    Cool website with animated knot tying... https://www.animatedknots.com/bowline-knot
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
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    Quote Originally Posted by 55-PA18A View Post
    Steve Johnson. Did I hear correctly you don't allow plane owners to tie their planes down INTO the wind when at New Holstein?

    Carabiner users. Do you use the locking carabiners, or just spring gate?

    The suggestion about a length of cable with eyelet and cable clamps was great. Have found cut off cables many times right where I wanted to tie down. Will be making some of these and keeping in the tool kit.

    Jim
    He said in the video that what matters is the kN value. I bought spring-gated ones rated at 8kN, which is about 1800 pounds. Not enough to lift the airplane, but probably stronger than the tiedown ring.

  35. #35
    SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 55-PA18A View Post
    Steve Johnson. Did I hear correctly you don't allow plane owners to tie their planes down INTO the wind when at New Holstein

    Jim
    Just in the main grass parking area we all face East. if people are concerned they are better off on the ramp. I'm not in charge this year so everybody may face north!

    Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  36. #36
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    KnotsClick image for larger version. 

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    So, tie the tail first, with either 1/2 hitches or inside hitch knot. Then roll aircraft forward so knot is tight and it will roll over and grow tighter. Tie down forward facing struts ropes so ropes pull against the tail rope.


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    Also I do not run the big tail wheel. In soft beach sand it’s a brake. Any toe brake pressure in soft sand locks the mains up and danger to digging deep or hard swerve or shiny side down. Takeoff roll the trim all the way forward pushing also on control column and heels on the floor! Use lots of grease!!


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  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by akavidflyer View Post
    Polly Creek Johnny Swiss? Have not heard that name in awhile. We used to set net on Chisik but Johnny would drop by time to time to chat with dad.
    Have always wanted to land at Chisik and meet folks living there. Was invited by radio to stop in for coffee some years back but couldn’t find the time. I regret it now because fella is probably gone. I’m sure the stories would have been interesting.
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    My wife and I were laughing at the beginning of the video. The pink Flamingos �� are ours. The Cub is in a hangar in Palmer on wheel skis for the nasty part of the winter. It’ll be next to the flamingos toward the end of March.
    on a side note I was doing the annual during the windstorm out there. It was crazy and sounded like a freight train was going through the hangar as the gusts came through.
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  40. #40
    5191H's Avatar
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    MISSING-Spinner and prop blade cover

    After the blow last month thru Lake Hood I've lost one blade cover and spinner cover.

    They should be somewhere between the North shore of Lake Hood and Kodiak.

    907-to 4 to-1777 thanks for any help! David
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