Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: Thoughts on rental rates for a SuperCub - for dual instructional purposes only; No Solo Flight

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    NH
    Posts
    49
    Post Thanks / Like

    Thoughts on rental rates for a SuperCub - for dual instructional purposes only; No Solo Flight

    I have the opportunity at an FBO that I part-time work at to do a sales-leaseback of my PA18. The reason for considering this proposal is so that I can instruct in the PA-18, basically doing tailwheel endorsements, under the FBO's insurance umbrella. Under this Sales-leaseback proposal/agreement, I would have the ability to set the rental rate for the PA-18, and the hourly instruction rate. My question is, What's the market rate for a PA-18 rental? Again, the rental would be with only myself instructing in the plane with the student. The students would never get to solo in the plane. In my state there is a J3 and a Pacer that are available for this type of rental use, however their aircraft rental rates are around $150/hr. From what I've previously researched in Alaska, a PA-18 rental rate is $250/hr, or more, plus instructor. I can't find any other Super Cubs for rent in my state for this type of rental/flight instruction. So from a market perspective, part of me says I need to be competitive and charge a rate around $150/hr. However, due to the Super Cub having a much higher hull value, and more performance than the J3 and Pacer, I should be able to charge a premium. Any thoughts on rental rates for a Super Cub would be much appreciated.
    Likes JeffP liked this post

  2. #2
    Grant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    At Work.....
    Posts
    1,969
    Post Thanks / Like
    I would charge a minimum of $250/hour plus instructor rate. I believe you will find that people who want a good training experience are happy to pay a fair rate. There will ALWAYS be people who complain about a price...whether its the price of beans or the price of a new airplane, and it's usually the same person....

    Bottom line is if you want to be succesful I would recommend you price the airplane and your rates at a premium so that you are satisfied with the return, otherwise you risk resenting each time you have to go fly at a rate you are not happy with. You can always price high and discount....
    Likes mjdonovan, mixer liked this post

  3. #3
    SJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Northwest Arkansas
    Posts
    15,772
    Post Thanks / Like
    We charge $165 per hour for a PA-18 180HP here in Northwest, AR. You can even rent it after a two instructor checkout.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  4. #4
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    12,047
    Post Thanks / Like
    Let’s see….you’re putting the plane under the FBO’s rental coverage to save money, right? So, if you’re not even paying insurance, why do you feel you are justified in charging a “premium”?

    Just playing devils advocate here.

    BUT, I would absolutely go through that FBO insurance arrangement with a VERY fine tooth comb. Who does insurance pay if there’s an accident? How much will they pay you? Can insurance surrogate against instructor, ie: you. Who has absolute control of plane? Etc.

    Old saying: There are no free lunches.

    MTV
    Likes mjdonovan liked this post

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    NH
    Posts
    49
    Post Thanks / Like
    MTV,

    The main purpose of the sales-lease back from my perspective is not so much about saving on insurance/maintenance costs, albeit its $7K annual to instruct in my own plane, but for the insurance protection it kinda-of offers (a veil layer). You do, however, bring up a very important point on subrogation, and making sure FBO's insurance company can't subrogate the CFI (me - for costs incurred in their payment to a claimer). That all said, it doesn't stop anyone from suing anybody for anything.
    Likes silflexer liked this post

  6. #6
    aktango58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    18AA
    Posts
    9,781
    Post Thanks / Like
    I looked at this one time, and my insurance lady laughed at me and asked to talk to my wife directly to have me committed if I continued.

    A couple things, and Mike hit the big one, that you need to consider is that as the legal owner of the plane, and instructor, you are leaving yourself exposed for a number of gotchas. Even with leaseback agreements, lines can be blurred. This is one time that having a good insurance attorney review the policy and agreement might be good money spent.

    Why? Well, even if you are on the controls, it will not prevent someone from locking a brake, freezing up on the controls, or a multitude of other things that can happen. If anything does, the instructor is at fault. If anything happens mechanical, it falls back on the owner to be responsible that all stuff is done on the plane. But hey, insurance companies won't argue a 150k payout much...

    Aircraft prices have gone sky high, (pardon), so make sure your value is set accordingly.

    Lastly, you ask about rates, and Stewart brings up cost of insurance... are you asking rates for the cub to the customer, or rates to the school? A premium to the customer might be appropriate, but I don't think $250 is reasonable, even wet. The cost of fuel up here, hangars and insurance all are high. Hearing Steve's rates, I could see you getting $200 maybe, but above that folks will pay for a vacation and go elsewhere.

    Only my opinion!!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
    Likes mjdonovan, JeffP liked this post

  7. #7
    SJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Northwest Arkansas
    Posts
    15,772
    Post Thanks / Like
    Our little two place helicopter is $375 per hour - plus $100 per hour for instruction....

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
    Likes mjdonovan, vj88 liked this post

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    East Boston
    Posts
    137
    Post Thanks / Like
    R-22s here are $285 an hour dual, not that far away a J-3 cub is $190 an hour dual. Prices are nuts, not just high, but nonsensical.
    Likes mjdonovan liked this post

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    25
    Post Thanks / Like
    Chandler air service here in Arizona has a super cub (actually more than one) that you can solo for$122/hr. Flight instructor for that airplane is $82. Single data point but Chandler is trying to make money with it. If your main purpose is to make money, I'd say charge at least those numbers. Maybe if you are doing it for fun, discount the airplane a bit as long as you aren't losing money. In my opinion, you should always charge at least the going rate for instruction time (unless it's a family member or fellow SC.org member), more if you are really good or in a unique niche. I suspect the fbo may want a cut also. I'd also say that maybe because there is never a possibility of solo, maybe an airplane discount is appropriate. Maybe not.

    Wayne
    Likes mjdonovan liked this post

  10. #10
    Taledrger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    SW Michigan
    Posts
    1,025
    Post Thanks / Like
    I've been doing Tailwheel Endorsements in my 160hp L21B for the last few years. I charge $165 per flight lesson. (includes 1 hour ground and 1 hour flight)

    YES THAT'S CHEAP!! Insurance $3000/yr (no solo), fuel $4.75/gal, maintenance kitty $50/hr, engine kitty $50/hr.. so probably barely break even BUT.. the airplane is pretty self sufficient. It doesn't cost me a dime to own it and have my personal use..

    I'm fortunate to have a major Aviation University just a few miles away that does not offer Tailwheel Training. Simple word of mouth there has been amazing.

    I could probably raise my price by $100/hr but I doubt I would have anywhere near the activity..
    Bob D
    Likes mjdonovan liked this post

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,815
    Post Thanks / Like
    We do very low key J3 dual only. The aircraft is long since paid for, so I carry liability only. It was $1400/year through some weird underwriter, but this year they wanted 25 hrs m/m for students. That sort of missed the point - we were coverting folks to tailwheel.
    So Avemco stepped up - quoted $1400/year liability only for me and a max of ten named students per year.

    We charge $100/hr for the airplane and $100/hr for me, and I have more business than I want.

    Pay careful attention to MTV - when you lease your aircraft to the FBO, you may not be insured at all! And since you own the aircraft, your SAFE CFI insurance does not cover you.

    My SAFE CFI insurance is not effective in the J3, but I am covered almost as well by the Avemco policy.

    Yes, anybody can sue you. What you want is for your insurance underwriter to defend you. If you have assets, do not move without liability insurance.

    opinion.
    Likes Pete Schoeninger, mjdonovan, EdH liked this post

  12. #12
    aktango58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    18AA
    Posts
    9,781
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Taledrger View Post
    engine kitty $50/hr..

    Wow!! $100,000 for an engine is about three times the going rate.

    But $100/hour to maintain a cub getting student use is not out of line!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
    Likes mjdonovan liked this post

  13. #13
    Taledrger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    SW Michigan
    Posts
    1,025
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Wow!! $100,000 for an engine is about three times the going rate.
    Well... it ALL goes in "my pocket" we'll see if there's anything left when I need an engine..
    Bob D
    Likes mjdonovan, RaisedByWolves liked this post

  14. #14
    WhiskeyMike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    West Boxford MA
    Posts
    1,012
    Post Thanks / Like
    Plan on overhead being much more than you think. The good thing about charging a high price is... you won't steal customers from the other guys and won't create enemies. You'll be selling a slightly different product. Let them snigger at you, but better that them hating you for undercutting prices. That never ends well.
    Thanks Deepseat thanked for this post

  15. #15

    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    183
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    We do very low key J3 dual only. The aircraft is long since paid for, so I carry liability only. It was $1400/year through some weird underwriter, but this year they wanted 25 hrs m/m for students. That sort of missed the point - we were coverting folks to tailwheel.
    So Avemco stepped up - quoted $1400/year liability only for me and a max of ten named students per year.

    We charge $100/hr for the airplane and $100/hr for me, and I have more business than I want.

    Pay careful attention to MTV - when you lease your aircraft to the FBO, you may not be insured at all! And since you own the aircraft, your SAFE CFI insurance does not cover you.

    My SAFE CFI insurance is not effective in the J3, but I am covered almost as well by the Avemco policy.

    Yes, anybody can sue you. What you want is for your insurance underwriter to defend you. If you have assets, do not move without liability insurance.

    opinion.
    Would intend to agree with your opinion especially your last sentence. Maybe it’s been covered before here; is a signed liability waiver worth more then it’s ink?

  16. #16

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,815
    Post Thanks / Like
    Maybe, but it still doesn’t buy lawyers. For a good lawyer in an injury situation, think “$100 Grand” to start.

    As to expenses - for us it is $25/hr fuel, $160/student for insurance (we require 5 hour commitments, so $32/ hr), hangar rent (we have to pay that anyway, but I budget $25/hr toward it) and then there is maintenance. I do my own, including engine work, but a Cub will eat up a couple grand per annual at a local FAA repair station.

    So we have left over - $18/hr for tires, engine overhaul set-aside, new equipment (those Garmin GTR-200s and API tailwheels) and profit.

    Unless you want to go full-on pro, and fly eight hours a day, this is a darn hobby - a way to stay airborne without buying the gas. You will not break even if you buy hull coverage and only fly an hour a day.
    Likes RoddyM, Pete Schoeninger liked this post

  17. #17
    hotrod180's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    3,872
    Post Thanks / Like
    If it was me, I think I'd buy a Champ or similar to do the t/w training in.
    Low purchase price, low operating cost, roomy.
    Also might be a better learning experience with a lowered powered aircraft,
    newbies will have to learn to do without that horsepower being available to pull their chestnuts out of the fire.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
    Likes skywagon8a, Paul Heinrich liked this post

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,815
    Post Thanks / Like
    I like the Champ, but the J3 is a better trainer.
    Likes Paul Heinrich, Crash, Jr. liked this post

  19. #19

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Illinois & Wisconsin
    Posts
    882
    Post Thanks / Like
    I’ve never met an aircraft owner who came out ahead on a leaseback unless their intent was to incur a deductible tax loss or an accelerated tax right-off.

    Takeoffs and landings are the most damaging and risky part of flying. That’s mostly all the plane does during tailwheel endorsement training. Good training would require gusty/high crosswind TOs, landings, and taxi conditions. Wear and tear on your airplane (and your nerves) would be many times that normally incurred and a major premium for both equipment and instructor would be more than justified. IMHO.

  20. #20
    SJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Northwest Arkansas
    Posts
    15,772
    Post Thanks / Like
    I leased back my first super cub for a number of years and it worked out really well for me, and the FBO. Fast forward twenty years and I have had a 172 on leaseback for three years now. It is earning way more (and paying all its expenses) than any other investment I'm involved in at the moment.

    In my experience, it really all comes down to the leaseback terms and how much they are going to charge you for maintenance and parts - all of the other "stuff" is pretty static - hangar, insurance, even fuel by comparison to maintenance. The plane threw a cylinder in flight right AFTER a student solo (thankfully instructor was back on board) there was a lot to fix after that and it was expensive, but it still came out five figures ahead for the year.

    I let the flight school handle all the maintenance. They call me on big stuff to see if I want to use new, used, or refurb parts. The school has an amazing twenty five year accident free record - and the instructors and students are taught to treat airplanes like they are their own.

    The other BIG significant item with all of the fixed costs, is how often it flies. If it only flies a few hours a month, you are going to lose.

    Be aware also, that once you lease it back, you are going to pay whatever they want to use "your" airplane, and you will be subject to their schedule. You don't want to be the guy that boots renters because you need the plane that day - it will not get used much if you do that.

    No doubt other's experiences may vary, these are just mine.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
    Likes Steve Pierce, Brandsman liked this post

  21. #21

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    NH
    Posts
    49
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thank you everyone for your opinions. Much appreciated. After reading all of the comments I've decided not to do a sales-leaseback and use my plane as a trainer. Not worth the risks and hassles. I'll enjoy it as the sole PIC with the occasional passenger.
    Likes skywagon8a, Steve Pierce liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. Super Cub Rental thoughts?
    By OVEREASYGUY in forum Airplanes
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 06-11-2019, 04:47 PM
  2. Thoughts of Your First Solo?
    By WindOnHisNose in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 03-12-2013, 09:32 AM
  3. Parking rates for a Supercub at Lake Hood, AK?
    By PALH_flier in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 01-18-2012, 10:30 AM
  4. First Solo Flight!!
    By Nomeflyer in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 05-21-2007, 09:16 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •