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Thread: Summit Skis

  1. #1

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    Summit Skis

    Is anyone operating these? I am considering them and would like a real world opinion on how well they perform. I have operated federal straight skis on my former PA12. I recently purchased a PA18 and would like to know how close these would be? (I realize the Summits are penetration) Also I am installing a new airglass cargo pod (The Biggest they make) Will this be a problem?

    Bushrat

  2. #2
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    They work really well on my 160hp cub. I had a firman pod on last year with 8.50 desser smooth tires. Worked really well


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    G44's Avatar
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    Anyone know how Summits compare to Trick Air’s? Anyone here flown both on the same airplane?

    Kurt

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    stewartb's Avatar
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    How do you sign off Summits on a standard category airplane? Trickairs are approved. Summits aren’t, right?
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    Pod is no problem. I run one with AWB hydraulic wheel skis on 8.00-6’s and 3” gear.
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    How do you sign off Summits on a standard category airplane? Trickairs are approved. Summits aren’t, right?

    Correct.
    PA-12 N418BS

  7. #7
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    Summit Skis

    I had a field approval a few years ago based off the light sport summit ski. Took over a year to get.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    I had a field approval a few years ago based off the light sport summit ski. Took over a year to get.


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    Ya. Right


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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveE View Post
    Ya. Right


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    Got one for the earthx battery and rear mounted alternator and a bunch of T-3’s


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  10. #10
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Huh, you can get those FAs but not a ferry permit? Crazy times, these are.

    I recall dgapilot saying he won't FA Summits without pedestal data, and they won't provide it. I find the light weight very appealing but if the "pedestal" is simply attached to the top shell without internal support to the bottom? I'd be scared of them.

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    I love my Trickairs. Built tuff.

    Jim
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Huh, you can get those FAs but not a ferry permit? Crazy times, these are.

    I recall dgapilot saying he won't FA Summits without pedestal data, and they won't provide it. I find the light weight very appealing but if the "pedestal" is simply attached to the top shell without internal support to the bottom? I'd be scared of them.
    Like I said, awhile ago. They took away the local FSDO’s field approval authority and ferry permits at the same time.


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    The issue with skis that aren’t certified is that both CAR 4 and CAR 3 require skis to be a “certified type”. Under the CAR system, that was certified with a type certificate under CAR 15. Today, that is the same as certified under TSO C28. As a DER doing a DER approval, or a DAR doing a field approval, I’m required to show compliance to the regulations. Given the regulations clearly state the skis need to be an “approved type”, my hands are tied. I tried to get the data from Summit that would at least show the design complied with TSO C28 even though they never applied for the approval figuring if I had the data I could show they were equivalent, but Summit said they had no data. That leaves us high and dry.


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    I almost finished rigging my Trick Air 1500s to my 11-EX…I had made these brackets to drop down to the pedestal so I can use 8.50 tires(experimental) so this is fine. The brackets are a little beefy but I figured there’s a lot of torque on them….I wanted bolt on brackets as well, so I made these. The truck airs are not light but the are stout. If I didn’t have these from my J3 I’d have bought some Summits I think….but, I’m making do.
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    Dan
    It looks like only one bolt holding the bracket to the leg. What keeps if from swinging down and inboard, another bolt we can't see? DENNY

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    stewartb's Avatar
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    I think your bolt-on fittings are clever but I wonder about torque loads. I’ll make sort of similar fittings but my TK gear provides lots of bolts to secure the fittings. I may weld the fittings if they don’t interfere with my bolted axles but I don’t think it’ll work. That’s a project for after New Year. I have warmer weather activities to do til then. .

    Merry Christmas, all!

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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    The only time skis get a lot of stress is when the person flying it man handles it after getting stuck or moving it in a circular motion without the skis sliding forward or backwards

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    I almost finished rigging my Trick Air 1500s to my 11-EX…I had made these brackets to drop down to the pedestal so I can use 8.50 tires(experimental) so this is fine. The brackets are a little beefy but I figured there’s a lot of torque on them….I wanted bolt on brackets as well, so I made these. The truck airs are not light but the are stout. If I didn’t have these from my J3 I’d have bought some Summits I think….but, I’m making do.
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    Im no engineer, but that looks like a recipe for failure.

    MTV

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    The only time skis get a lot of stress is when the person flying it man handles it after getting stuck or moving it in a circular motion without the skis sliding forward or backwards

    Glenn
    Looks a lot like the summit

    https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...s-experimental


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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    It looks like only one bolt holding the bracket to the leg. What keeps if from swinging down and inboard, another bolt we can't see?
    https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...s-experimental

    Photo of unpainted bracket seems to show attachment of the outboard end to the brake torque plate.
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  21. #21

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    I may have shamelessly copied someone else’s idea…It bolts to the axel torque plate in two places. I think my brackets are a little heavy because I thought the xtra support was worth it. They are just over 2 lbs each. Ouch. Lol. The Trick Airs are great skis. I’ve never had a real good look at summits up close. I know they are lighter and may possibly have a little less drag on the snow….not sure. I used these skis for 3 seasons on my 65 hp J3 and they worked fine….a little more takeoff distance than my Federals but worth it to me for ease of operation. It sure is nice to taxi across the pavement and roll it into my hangar. I only do this for fun so these suit me very nicely.
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  22. #22
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    The only time skis get a lot of stress is when the person flying it man handles it after getting stuck or moving it in a circular motion without the skis sliding forward or backwards

    Glenn
    Hitting frozen snowmachine tracks, ice chunks, ice ridges, re-frozen overflow holes, hard drifts, fast taxiing in a turn, etc. My skis take lots loads that would transfer torque to the attachments. I don’t think a bolt-on fitting in itself is a problem. Making the fitting taller (standing it off the axle) and how that handles torque will be interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Hitting frozen snowmachine tracks, ice chunks, ice ridges, re-frozen overflow holes, hard drifts, fast taxiing in a turn, etc. My skis take lots loads that would transfer torque to the attachments. I don’t think a bolt-on fitting in itself is a problem. Making the fitting taller (standing it off the axle) and how that handles torque will be interesting.
    thats why I have such substantial gussets on the brackets I made…..the pedestals are set where they are….so adding that extra gusset was important to me….it weighs more but I felt it was worth it.
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  24. #24
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    It’ll probably be fine. All you’ve done is extend the pedestal height to what 2250s and 2500s use. And it’s easy to inspect.

  25. #25
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Try grabbing the ski nose and twist back and forth sideways. See what moves and fix if needed. If needed some ski designs (Federal AWB2500) can add a third gear leg to form another supporting triangle.

    Gary

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    These brackets are made of 1/4” plate and they sandwich the existing axel combing the strength of the bracket and the axel/gear…..extremely strong. Since the original post is about Summits…I read on their website that the outside shell is the structural portion of their skis. Is the pedistal plate on summits mounted to an internally formed carbon reinforcement? I understand why my skis are 29 lbs each while theirs are just over 20…,trick airs have a steel “skeleton “ of sorts.

  27. #27
    Narwhal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    These brackets are made of 1/4” plate and they sandwich the existing axel combing the strength of the bracket and the axel/gear…..extremely strong. Since the original post is about Summits…I read on their website that the outside shell is the structural portion of their skis. Is the pedistal plate on summits mounted to an internally formed carbon reinforcement? I understand why my skis are 29 lbs each while theirs are just over 20…,trick airs have a steel “skeleton “ of sorts.
    I'm not sure how the brackets are attached to the ski. I don't have the Cub these are going on yet, so I hung them on the wall to get them off the floor. Hopefully these brackets aren't harming them, maybe I should build a shelf to avoid deforming the plastic bottoms.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    These brackets are made of 1/4” plate and they sandwich the existing axel combing the strength of the bracket and the axel/gear…..extremely strong. Since the original post is about Summits…I read on their website that the outside shell is the structural portion of their skis. Is the pedistal plate on summits mounted to an internally formed carbon reinforcement? I understand why my skis are 29 lbs each while theirs are just over 20…,trick airs have a steel “skeleton “ of sorts.
    My understanding of the pedestal attachment is that there’s no support under the top shell. I’d like to see what’s under the top shell of Trick Airs. My 2250s aren’t light by Summit standards but after using Fluidynes for two decades? They feel light to me!

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Try grabbing the ski nose and twist back and forth sideways. See what moves and fix if needed. If needed some ski designs (Federal AWB2500) can add a third gear leg to form another supporting triangle.

    Gary
    Every ski I have run over the last 27 years I can wiggle the tips side to side at least 6+ inches, free play. They move a lot with out torquing the gear. I like it that way

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  30. #30
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    Excessive side movement slows the takeoff run. But if light who cares? Merry Christmas.

    Gary

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    Much of my ski flying has required skidding around a corner to takeoff. I don’t think sloppy directional control is acceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Much of my ski flying has required skidding around a corner to takeoff. I don’t think sloppy directional control is acceptable.
    My strip is narrow and it's never been a problem

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    My strip is narrow and it's never been a problem

    Glenn
    Maybe not for you but that's just home field advantage, I seem to mow some cattails when I make that turn.

    If I have an extra set of hands when mounting mine I can squeeze that one last thin washer in place which reduces side movement originating from the mount to virtually none. That little bit makes a difference 4 feet forward.
    Merry Christmas and may your God Bless.

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    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!
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  34. #34
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    Do Summits have runners, skags, or whatever we’re calling the directional strips used on other skis? Trick Airs do not, and I was told I’d need to get used to that change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Do Summits have runners, skags, or whatever we’re calling the directional strips used on other skis? Trick Airs do not, and I was told I’d need to get used to that change.
    Not on either of the two pair I have owned.

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!
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  36. #36
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    At my cabin I operate on a creek bottom. The wingspan on my Cub won’t leave much room for error. Fortunately surface wind is blocked by tall trees. It’ll be interesting.

  37. #37
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    I’ve run Trickairs on my Supercub for five years now and ran Federal 2000’s prior to that. I didn’t really notice much tracking difference between a skeg on the Federals and the no-skeg Trickairs. I think the drag of the tire in the snow may act as a skeg.


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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    At my cabin I operate on a creek bottom. The wingspan on my Cub won’t leave much room for error. Fortunately surface wind is blocked by tall trees. It’ll be interesting.
    They turn really tight though


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  39. #39
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    OK, I'm a complete ignoramus, but I'm going to go ahead and ask:

    My summits didn't come with any documentation for installation, I'm guessing they thought it would be self-explanatory. I'll follow up with them to see if I can obtain instructions when the time gets closer.

    I talked to cubcrafters (my builder assist FX3 is currently about 3 weeks into production) and they said the only airframe modification necessary for the summits are extra hole(s) in the landing gear mounting plate on the gear legs. I didn't get into great detail but it sounded like 2 holes were needed.

    I asked if they could drill these at the factory but was told it would be better if it is done when the skis are first installed for correct rigging. The plane will not be wearing the summits until late 2022 since it won't be flying until April at the earliest.

    Is there anything challenging about drilling these holes in the landing gear mounting plates? Even though it's experimental I'm planning to work with the A&P IA that works on my current Cessna to supervise all maintenance and especially on things like this that I'm ignorant about. I know my IA has done a lot of skis but I don't think they've done summits. Is this a common thing? Are drilling the holes in the gear mounting plates after they're on the airplane and legs are covered a problem?

    Thanks!

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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal View Post
    OK, I'm a complete ignoramus, but I'm going to go ahead and ask:

    My summits didn't come with any documentation for installation, I'm guessing they thought it would be self-explanatory. I'll follow up with them to see if I can obtain instructions when the time gets closer.

    I talked to cubcrafters (my builder assist FX3 is currently about 3 weeks into production) and they said the only airframe modification necessary for the summits are extra hole(s) in the landing gear mounting plate on the gear legs. I didn't get into great detail but it sounded like 2 holes were needed.

    I asked if they could drill these at the factory but was told it would be better if it is done when the skis are first installed for correct rigging. The plane will not be wearing the summits until late 2022 since it won't be flying until April at the earliest.

    Is there anything challenging about drilling these holes in the landing gear mounting plates? Even though it's experimental I'm planning to work with the A&P IA that works on my current Cessna to supervise all maintenance and especially on things like this that I'm ignorant about. I know my IA has done a lot of skis but I don't think they've done summits. Is this a common thing? Are drilling the holes in the gear mounting plates after they're on the airplane and legs are covered a problem?

    Thanks!
    Summit brackets don't need any holes. Lower shock strut bolt and 2 brake torque plate holes

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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