Results 1 to 35 of 35

Thread: 1st sale questions

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Camas, WA
    Posts
    132
    Post Thanks / Like

    1st sale questions

    Getting ready to sell my cub, and this will be the first airplane Iíve sold. What is the general consensus on flying with a potential buyer?

    Put them in back? Let them sit up front? Review logbooks? I know thereís going to be a wide range of opinions on this, but Iíd like to hear them. Thanks in advance!

    Matt

    p.s. Not leaving the community, Javron has my deposit already!


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  2. #2
    aktango58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    18AA
    Posts
    9,650
    Post Thanks / Like
    As a person that has been lucky enough to purchase a couple airplanes, most I never even looked at in person prior to deposit and traveling with a big check to pick it up.

    First thought: Don't let someone wreck your plane on a test flight. Are you an instructor? One of the important parts of training is to learn how to deal with people unfamiliar with aircraft. You need to sit where you are comfortable and can fly the plane. If they hand you a check for the full amount, then maybe you can let them take it for a spin.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
    Likes Coondog, WWhunter, algonquin, Hardtailjohn liked this post

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    28
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    As a person that has been lucky enough to purchase a couple airplanes, most I never even looked at in person prior to deposit and traveling with a big check to pick it up.

    First thought: Don't let someone wreck your plane on a test flight. Are you an instructor? One of the important parts of training is to learn how to deal with people unfamiliar with aircraft. You need to sit where you are comfortable and can fly the plane. If they hand you a check for the full amount, then maybe you can let them take it for a spin.
    I donít know what the best practice is here. I would suggest talking to you insurance company and see what advice they have. I also think AOPA may be able to provide some advice through their legal services group with Template agreements etc. they can walk you through the process.

    Not sure if this is a sound process but My father-in-law has sold a few planes. He would let folks tire kick. If they express interest, I recall he too would require a deposit earnest money with an agreement that he will make the airplane available for inspection by a competent A&P at the buyers cost while he watched at an agreed time and place where the potential buyer is responsible for any damage. You donít want some idiot bringing his Hanger buddy to start wrenching on your plane doing punch tests and then walking leaving you with a repair bill. And if they do cause damage and walk, hopefully the earnest money will cover it if they become obstinate.

    He would let folks inspect the logbooks or send them zerox copies, but keep custody of the books. You donít want someone holding your logbooks hostage.

    When they complete the deal, give him a check, and provide proof of insurance, he would give them an intro flight to get them started off right. He would encourage them to bring a certified CFI/ferry pilot to give them transition training and get it to their hanger. Some will reject but he thought going on record making the suggestion was sound advice and may help him if the buyers confidence is greater than their skill.

    He was always concerned about giving demo flights since he isnít a CFI and the buyers insurance may not cover the buyer until they complete x number of hours in type. This was the step that made him nervous. Bit, he felt the buyer wonít buy something having never flown it. And, aside from liability concerns, he thought showing them the plane is in good shape and how he flies it was the right thing to do and would reduce the chance someone ground loops their first flight doing something stupid and then sues him arguing the plane wasnít airworthy. Again maybe aopa may have some ideas on how to structure things to reduce your risk.

    Good luck.
    Likes Brandsman liked this post

  4. #4

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    1,172
    Post Thanks / Like
    Make it simple, if you own the airplane outright, CASH! In this case, a simple AC8050-2 bill of sale is all you need. Iíve known several transactions where $80,000 to over $100,000 in cash has changed hands, and that was the only way the seller would accept payment. The buyer may want a written bill of sale for sales tax purposes back home. If you have a loan, then best to work with an escrow company.

    As for flying the airplane, if you are comfortable flying from either seat, let him have his choice, if not, you get the front. If hi doesnít like that, let him go look at other airplanes.

    Maintenance records are all open. I would suggest scanning everything into a pdf and send the prospective buyer a copy either on a thumb drive or a dvd. Dropbox is another option. Keep in mind, each buyer will want to see those records. Include the flight manual, supplements, and W&B documents. All 337s. Depending on how old your airplane is, maybe only back to the last recover, but in todays world, megabytes are cheap.

    Prepurchase inspection will be whatever you and the buyer agree on. Could be as simple as a quick walk around or as complex as a full annual. Have a written agreement about any repairs BEFORE-anyone opens the cowl or inspection panels.

    If selling international, have a written agreement on who is responsible for for all documents, labor to disassemble and containerize the airplane. These will run several thousand dollars. If flying it to an international destination, talk to a DAR about how the transaction needs to transpire. This gets very tricky.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    stewartb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Wolf Lake, AK
    Posts
    6,596
    Post Thanks / Like
    I sold my first airplane to a guy in the lower 48. He was coming to Anchorage to pick it up and pay me the next day. His instructor, a guy I had known for several years, asked if he could take the plane for a quick flight to familiarize himself with it. My attention had turned to my new-to-me 180 so I had no objection. 30 minutes into his fight the engine broke a rod, blew a hole in the case, destroyed the engine, and forced a no damage landing (floats) on the Big Su. Sale lost. The new motor took 10 weeks to get. I had two airplanes and had borrowed against the sale to buy the 180. Now I needed $40K to fix the first plane. Rough times but I got through it. My attitude now? If you want to fly it? Buy it. Coincidentally, Iíve never flown an airplane Iíve bought, either.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Talkeetna Alaska
    Posts
    295
    Post Thanks / Like
    What are you selling?
    Thanks JeffP thanked for this post

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Camas, WA
    Posts
    132
    Post Thanks / Like
    This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you all for the detailed insight. I just wrapped up the annual, and I took a lot of pictures with panels off to make a pre-purchase inspection easier. Iíve had the plane for 9 years now, and never flew it before I bought it, but had a friend who flew it for me.

    Itís a Ď79 with 1880 TT, a 490 hr b2b, and most of the Alaska mods. I have a guy coming to look at it in a few weeks, if that doesnít work out I will post it here first, then open to barnstormers as a last resort. Happy to answer questions in the mean time, feel free to PM me if you see this and are interested. 130 is the asking price.

    Again, thank you all for the help!


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
    Likes soyAnarchisto liked this post

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Illinois & Wisconsin
    Posts
    842
    Post Thanks / Like
    Smart decision to list it on Barnstormers as a last resort. You would not believe the number of cranks, crackpots, and deluded dreamers Barnstormers brings to your inbox.

    I had one guy suggest I take his beat up PA11 AND give him $15Gs in trade for my new 2020 180hp PA12.

    Pilots tend to make purchases a pride thing so they can brag to their buddies about how great a deal they got. When I was selling my Beaver in ‘05 a senior VP of Microsoft tried to beat me up claiming poverty over a $2,000 difference and then showed up to look at it in his own brand new KingAir 200. The fuel cost alone for that flight from the Coast was well over that.

    Maybe I’m just idealistic and unrealistic, but I can’t imagine Cubcrafters, Javron, or Airbus has customers offering them a third of the list price for their products.

    Selling an airplane has never been any fun for me even when I got my asking price. Don’t be afraid to ask for what you believe the plane is truly worth and then stick to your guns.

    On the upside, just think about how happy your wife will be with all that extra spending money she will have to spend for you.

    I agree with the others: Don't let anyone fly your airplane until the check clears and you have the cash in hand. Good luck with the sale.
    Likes jrussl liked this post

  9. #9

    Join Date
    May 2021
    Location
    Arizona, USA
    Posts
    316
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    I agree with the others: Don't let anyone fly your airplane until the check clears and you have the cash in hand.
    Well that depends on the airplane and the seller. I would have no problem at all putting a potential purchaser in either front seat of my PA-28. I have a lot of time in both seats and fly it equally well (or badly) from both. Now the FX-3 would be a different story. I have many hours in the back seat of tandem seat aircraft but they were nearly all gliders. I would need a lot more FX-3 back seat time before I put a potential purchaser in the front seat.
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  10. #10
    soyAnarchisto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Boulder, CO
    Posts
    620
    Post Thanks / Like
    Sorry that’s bullshit to expect large amounts of money to change hands without flying it first. If you aren’t willing to fly with the prospective buyer or let an instructor you trust give them a test flight then you are not a serious seller. Good luck finding a sucker. My only exception would be if the plane is out of annual - and even then the terms of sale would be conditional on annual and test flight and it would be priced accordingly. If you won’t let someone fly it then you have something very big to hide. Fly with them in the place where you are comfortable.

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    28
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by soyAnarchisto View Post
    Sorry thatís bullshit to expect large amounts of money to change hands without flying it first. If you arenít willing to fly with the prospective buyer or let an instructor you trust give them a test flight then you are not a serious seller. Good luck finding a sucker. My only exception would be if the plane is out of annual - and even then the terms of sale would be conditional on annual and test flight and it would be priced accordingly. If you wonít let someone fly it then you have something very big to hide. Fly with them in the place where you are comfortable.
    Ya, but it is a sellers market right now. So, sellers are in a better position to define what they want.

    And, most sellers donít want to get inundated by potential buyers who just want a free ride with no intent to close a deal. So, most sellers like to see some earnest money before spending a lot of time and effort.

    As for flying it, the question is who is liable if something goes wrong. Some folks are fine giving rides; some arenít. If something happens before sale itís on the seller. You can say it should be but the seller is trying to sell not get sued and not all sellers still have their license. So then what? Bring in a CFI at the buyers expense, some buyers donít want to spend the money.

    Next up on the risk ladder is letting the buyer fly it. This is where things get murky. So, the seller can keep them on their insurance, but they donít know much of anything about the potential buyer and insurance companyís know the first 10 hours in a new airplane are the riskiest. You can have a situation where the buyer canít get insurance yet and the seller is being asked to let some guy they have never met fly an airplane the buyer canít get insurance on and the seller again may or may not have insurance. So if something goes wrong itís on the seller and the buyer will walk. Not super awesome for a seller. Even if the seller has insurance, if something goes wrong they get a broken airplane and an insurance claim. Not what they wanted which may be particularly unwelcome if it was the buyers fault.

    With a cub though, things should be easier. Most folks should be able to get some dual and show up insured. My background with a sale was with a pitts. Buyer was stepping up from a basic trainer and had no time in type and insurance wouldnít cover him. He wanted to fly it which one would as you noted. We kept insurance on and asked for a deposit. My father in law gave him a demo flight and let the buyer fly it with him. It worked out but we were a little nervous. Maybe there are better ways to deal with this but with some sales insurance creates a donut hole leaving the seller at risk.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Corcoran MN
    Posts
    47
    Post Thanks / Like
    My last two aircraft purchases included a pre-purchase flight and inspection after a purchase agreement was signed with a money deposited. Purchase was contingent on flight and inspection being acceptable. One was a Husky the other a Meridian. Both flights included the current owner of the aircraft. I wouldn’t want it another way.

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Illinois & Wisconsin
    Posts
    842
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Chogf22 View Post
    Put them in back? Let them sit up front? Review logbooks? I know there’s going to be a wide range of opinions on this, but I’d like to hear them. Thanks in advance!
    Never said no test flights. People should take the time to read a post before they get their panties in a wad, especially when they are not the ones asking for other members’ opinions and advice. You’re welcome.
    Likes Tnathan liked this post

  14. #14

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    1,172
    Post Thanks / Like
    I canít remember buying an airplane that was in annual, all have been out of annual and some by many years. It would be impossible to legally fly one of these airplanes. In times gone by, I flew some of them home right after the sale. More recently, Iíve completed the annual where the aircraft was, then flew it home. Of course there have been some where I took them apart before brining them home.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Likes Tnathan liked this post

  15. #15

    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    28
    Post Thanks / Like

    1st sale questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    Never said no test flights. People should take the time to read a post before they get their panties in a wad, especially when they are not the ones asking for other membersí opinions and advice. Youíre welcome.
    Itís not completely relevant to airplanes, but with the last boat I bought the way it works was there was a contract signed, cash was put in escrow, and a test ride captained by the sellers agent who is a licensed, insured captain took me out. It wasnít a joy ride. Went out for about 30 minutes, proved everything worked and identified what didnít. Adjusted price for items found to be broken and then closed. But with antique aviation itís a little more random. No one wants to spend money on escrow, lawyers, CFIs etc.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  16. #16
    soyAnarchisto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Boulder, CO
    Posts
    620
    Post Thanks / Like
    Escrow accounts (with title search and earnest money) are very much standard in antique aviation - AOPA partner aero-space reports is fantastic and not expensive at all for the security they provide both parties in the transaction.

    It is a sellers market, for sure - but it you want top dollar asking price you'd better expect a thorough process, including a pre-purchase inspection/annual and a flight in a flyable, airworthy plane that is worth what you are asking. A buyer is taking most of the risk here - so you should be comfortable with letting them understand what they are buying. A flight really is important to know the rigging and whether the plane is straight.

    I looked (or tried to) at a 180 this summer where the guy wouldn't even let me unzip the headliner before handing him a pile of cash. Nope. GTFO with that garbage. If you wanna sell the plane, you gotta play ball. And a flight is part of the deal, so is answering phone calls from looky-lous. However if someone puts in the effort to travel to you - often from another state - with hat in hand and a check in in the other, you should expect to give them a ride, answer the same questions the other guys have asked, and make the plane available for close inspection. If the engine throws a rod during the test flight - that really sucks - but it's still the owners plane and it could have very well blown up with their family on board. If it holds up for that half hour of test flights, it was meant to be. Bringing a mechanic to look at the plane is not cheap at all - again standard operating procedure these days.

    A lot of these planes on the open market are in pretty bad shape with pencil whipped annuals for decades. It may be a hot market but that doesn't mean you bring dumb money to the table.

    If you don't want to do this yourself - pay a broker - but you're gonna have a hard time getting full asking price without the standard song and dance. Of course you could get lucky and a sucker could walk in your door.

    I think there's a fair bit of misinformation out there about actual transactions going down - people are posting opinions and haven't actually put their skin in the game. I bought my 3rd plane (and my second 180) just a few weeks ago - and walked on more than a dozen that I looked at quite hard and thought I wanted to buy for real - but then found serious issues with that I was not comfortable owning. That guy could also get really unlucky and buy a bomb that would detonate in their first 30 minutes of flight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tnathan View Post
    Itís not completely relevant to airplanes, but with the last boat I bought the way it works was there was a contract signed, cash was put in escrow, and a test ride captained by the sellers agent who is a licensed, insured captain took me out. It wasnít a joy ride. Went out for about 30 minutes, proved everything worked and identified what didnít. Adjusted price for items found to be broken and then closed. But with antique aviation itís a little more random. No one wants to spend money on escrow, lawyers, CFIs etc.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Likes hotrod180 liked this post

  17. #17
    stewartb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Wolf Lake, AK
    Posts
    6,596
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Chogf22 View Post
    Getting ready to sell my cub, and this will be the first airplane I’ve sold. What is the general consensus on flying with a potential buyer?

    Put them in back? Let them sit up front? Review logbooks? I know there’s going to be a wide range of opinions on this, but I’d like to hear them. Thanks in advance!

    Matt

    p.s. Not leaving the community, Javron has my deposit already!


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    How many inquiries have you had since you posted an interest in selling? That’s the best way to sell. Let it be known you’re considering it and let the buyer track you down.
    Likes DENNY liked this post

  18. #18
    hotrod180's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    3,700
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    .....My attitude now? If you want to fly it? Buy it. Coincidentally, I’ve never flown an airplane I’ve bought, either.
    I wouldn't buy a car, even new, without a test drive. Why would it be different for an airplane?
    In an airplane though, I'd expect a test ride -- as pax, not as PIC.
    That said, as I recall I bought my current airplane (C180) without a ride first-
    because I knew the owner & a number of his flying buddies,
    and was somewhat familiar with the airplane & comfortable that it didn't have any big issues.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
    Likes soyAnarchisto, Tnathan liked this post

  19. #19
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    11,753
    Post Thanks / Like
    If the prospective buyer wants to fly the plane prior to purchase, fly it with him/her in the back seat. Controls or no, up to you. If you're not an instructor, experienced in type, don't get careless letting them fly the plane with you in it. YOU can demo pretty much everything they need to see.

    Do a few stalls to the full buffet, some steep turns, all at altitude. That'll let them know the rigging is good. Everything else is just "Does that work?", which is easy.

    My last Cub, I had "conversations", a VERY long and aggravating one from a member of this forum, who, after asking for a bunch of photos, documentation, etc, then told me I should fly it to HIM, and if he liked it he'd pay me far less than asking price. If he didn't like it, he'd pay my gas to get it home......Those folks are out there, and on this forum.

    The young man who actually bought the plane flew out here with his Dad in their Bonanza, accompanied by their mechanic, who did the pre buy, and the young man's flight instructor, who I knew well. Flight Instructor said, go fly with the owner (me), which we did for a short flight, after the pre buy.

    Young man handed me a certified check for the asking price, climbed in with his CFI and they all left in the two planes. That whole process took about three hours. Amazing!

    I wish you a similarly great experience, good luck on the sale!

    MTV

  20. #20
    gbflyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    PAGS
    Posts
    764
    Post Thanks / Like
    Have had pleasant transactions for the most part. Several bought and sold. One dude wanted a sales agreement which was fine, however that was the only one I ever had an issue with. He had it inspected by an IA and himself, reviewed logs personally, and refused a test flight in it. Came with his pilot a month or more later, flew it away. Called me a couple weeks later wanting money back due to a log discrepancy they dug up. It was there, no doubt about it. We all missed it. Also had a squawk about a gear box. I wasnít playing ball but offered a full refund plus travel expenses upon the aircraftís safe return and annual inspection. That was the last I heard about it. Pretty sure he though I needed the money. Same guy calls my boat broker friend and strokes him off every year or so.

    Thereís lots of wheeler/dealers out there. Word of mouth within a type community is the best way. Like my grandad always said, if a mans word is no good his paper probably isnít either.
    Thanks soyAnarchisto thanked for this post

  21. #21

    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    28
    Post Thanks / Like
    There are all sorts out there. Itís tough when you post it on line and get interest from folks you donít know. There are horror stories from both buyers and sellers.

    The buyer is nervous about spending the money and time traveling to see something. They go through the process to find out they seller doesnít have an honest view of their airplane, books are out of order, and or they are just difficult to deal with and wonít let you do what you need to evaluate the plane. And each time you go through the process you have to blow a couple grand with cfis, A&Ps travel expenses, etc. gets frustrating when you have to walk when things arenít as represented.

    Sellers are worried about wasting their time with tire kickers, folks who want something for nothing leaving them holding the bag.

    Itís just a stressful time all around. Easier to sell to someone you know. Both parties come to the deal with more respect and trust. And the cost and time involved is easier.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  22. #22

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,521
    Post Thanks / Like
    If I remember correctly that cub was set up for Alaska pretty well. I would call your old IA and have him put the word out you are looking to sell. Fed-X is moving more pilots up here and they have money to burn. Good cubs will sell by word of mouth. I have done cash with my last two plane buys and it works great!! I would only let someone fly in the front if I knew them. Lots of pilots will say they can fly a taildragger but even a cub can be hard for some. Brought my Javron home in September, I was going to sell my cub but my wife said I have to wait until new one is flying. Check PM.
    DENNY
    Likes Chogf22, BC12D-4-85 liked this post

  23. #23
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    11,753
    Post Thanks / Like
    For perspective, right now in Bozeman, people from elsewhere are paying literally millions of dollars for houses without ever seeing them.....seriously.

    Go figure. As an old friend once told me: "The cheapest thing in an airplane is the pilot".

    True dat.

    MTV
    Likes soyAnarchisto, Paul Heinrich liked this post

  24. #24
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    3,105
    Post Thanks / Like
    Alaskan sales of the right planes are like ravens eating grasshoppers....never enough. We're running out of older basic off airport capable aircraft in our fleet. Asking prices are amazing among a dwindling stock.

    Gary

  25. #25
    soyAnarchisto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Boulder, CO
    Posts
    620
    Post Thanks / Like
    True, but they do get to walk away at any point right up to, and 3 days after closing - and only lose their earnest money - maybe. And they will get a detailed inspection and disclosures. And are protected by all grades of laws and contracts.

    When the money goes up, so do the expectations - so don't kid yourself into thinking someone is just going to drop off a shopping bag full of cash for your plane and fly it away in 10 minutes. That may have happened to that one pilot at the bar one time, but it ain't the norm. Any plane approaching or north of six figures, is a serious transaction - there ain't many ballers willing to piss that kind of cash into the wind. I don't care what the inner toobs say.

    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    For perspective, right now in Bozeman, people from elsewhere are paying literally millions of dollars for houses without ever seeing them.....seriously.

    Go figure. As an old friend once told me: "The cheapest thing in an airplane is the pilot".

    True dat.

    MTV
    Likes Tnathan liked this post

  26. #26
    stewartb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Wolf Lake, AK
    Posts
    6,596
    Post Thanks / Like
    Hey Scooter, you musta been crazy to buy my -12 from what these guys say. Go figure. Or me for buying my 180, or the XP before that!

  27. #27
    aktango58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    18AA
    Posts
    9,650
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    I wouldn't buy a car, even new, without a test drive. Why would it be different for an airplane?
    In an airplane though, I'd expect a test ride -- as pax, not as PIC.
    That said, as I recall I bought my current airplane (C180) without a ride first-
    because I knew the owner & a number of his flying buddies,
    and was somewhat familiar with the airplane & comfortable that it didn't have any big issues.
    Pretty good info here.

    This weekend we completed a purchase of a cheap set of wheels, a 7 ECA. I have known about the plane for a while, life changed a couple weeks ago and we need to travel to Juneau lots this winter- airline tickets are $150-$170 each way, so having cheap wheels is worth it. Maule still in recover.

    I called the mechanics that have done the last couple annuals, guys I know and trust, and got good words from them. Talked to the owner through texts as he was working out of town, he promised to hold it for a pre-buy. Took a week to get the pre-buy done, (I was only concerned with wing spars and engine). Got word that the plane was good, sent the check the next day.

    I did not fly the plane, nor did I run it. BUT mechanics that I trust, and have done major work for me, knew and flew the plane recently. And the price was right.

    A number of years ago I traveled to Anchorage area to purchase a PA-12. The mechanic had purchased it as a wreck, and put it back together. I wanted to do a compression test, check the screen and do a test flight. Upon my arrival the owner, a mechanic, said he had already pulled and cleaned the screen and told me it was clean; first flag, as I had known an inflight engine failure had caused the crash. I needed to see the screen myself or by a mechanic paid by ME.

    I decided to hold off on the compression test and panel pulling until I got a flight in it. Took all of about 20 minutes to do a stall or two, couple turns, and have him put it strait and level and let go of the controls, then come back to the airport. The owner did the flying with me in the back seat.

    When the owner pulled the power back for landing the engine quit. The owner said it did that sometimes.

    I had $1,000 in travel already to see this plane, with over a weeks notice to the owner, and A&P. The plane had a history of inflight engine failure, and the owner/mechanic was flying it with the engine commonly failing during low power settings.

    I walked away without any concern for reimbursement for the flight or effort the owner had gone to. The plane was not airworthy as advertised, and honestly not safe.

    Getting even a test ride on unknown aircraft is well worth your time. But, as long as the person flying it will do what you ask within reason- hands off strait and level, stalls and such, being a passenger will provide you with the information you need to evaluate the plane.

    On a cub, I would expect to take a serious buyer for a flight, I might let them handle the controls once above 500 feet, but I would be landing it.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
    Likes soyAnarchisto, Tnathan, 40m, cubpilot2 liked this post

  28. #28

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Camas, WA
    Posts
    132
    Post Thanks / Like
    This is exactly what I was looking for when I started this thread. My bottom line take away is the instructorís favorite answer - ďit dependsĒ.

    Marrying the wishes of the buyer with the responsible conduct of any and all inspecting/touching/wrenching/flying seems like it might vary with every interaction. Certainly not a one size fits all approach.

    For what itís worth, Iíll post on how it eventually goes down!


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
    Likes soyAnarchisto, DENNY liked this post

  29. #29

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    64
    Post Thanks / Like
    It’s funny out there.

    I didn’t sell to a guy I thought for sure was going to buy it, he talked a big game. I even flew him in it. I was really disappointed that I wasted my time.

    The next guy comes along, calls, buys it sight unseen.

  30. #30
    JimParker256's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Farmersville, TX
    Posts
    484
    Post Thanks / Like
    As a buyer, I would prefer to get a flight in the airplane before closing the sale, just to confirm there are no major issues with rigging, etc. But also to confirm that all the avionics work as claimed. I bought two planes that way. In both cases, the seller flew the plane, while I observed, checked out avionics, etc.

    I also bought a '65 Champion 7ECA without ever flying it. I looked it over with a knowledgeable buddy, and we thought it looked OK. I then had an experienced "ragwing" IA do a pre-buy inspection, which also came out OK, with just a couple of minor discrepancies. Based on that, I bought the plane, and had the IA complete an annual inspection, where a couple of other minor things came up (patched tube in one main that I asked him to replace, and the battery failed a "load test" (not surprising - it was many years old) so we installed a new Concorde).

    At that point, I did not yet have a tailwheel endorsement, so the previous owner agreed to fly it to my home airfield (90 miles). It was his first ever flight into a tower-controlled airport, much less into an airport underneath Class Bravo airspace. When he got out of the plane, he was so tense that he could barely walk! The plane flew just fine, and I used it to get my tailwheel endorsement and get 100 hours of tailwheel time.

    When it was time to sell that Citabria, the buyer (a tailwheel pilot who commercial from Wisconsin to buy the plane), wanted a demo flight from the front seat before finalizing he deal. I was uncomfortable flying from the rear seat myself (having never done so), so I asked my CFI buddy (same one who did my tailwheel endorsement) to fly with him. My CFI would do the takeoff and landing, and the buyer could fly it in between. Luckily for me, I had my CFI listed as a named insured on my policy so he could fly it as PIC.

    After a short flight, the new owner and I drove to the bank, transferred the money from his account to mine, signed over the paperwork, and it was his airplane. He had already arranged for insurance to start with his phone call, so he took care of that as well. Apparently, he liked my CFI (everybody does) and they arranged for a couple of hours of training before the buyer flew his "new" plane home to Wisconsin.
    Jim Parker
    2007 Rans S-6ES
    Thanks RVBottomly thanked for this post

  31. #31

    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    28
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by JimParker256 View Post
    As a buyer, I would prefer to get a flight in the airplane before closing the sale, just to confirm there are no major issues with rigging, etc. But also to confirm that all the avionics work as claimed. I bought two planes that way. In both cases, the seller flew the plane, while I observed, checked out avionics, etc.

    I also bought a '65 Champion 7ECA without ever flying it. I looked it over with a knowledgeable buddy, and we thought it looked OK. I then had an experienced "ragwing" IA do a pre-buy inspection, which also came out OK, with just a couple of minor discrepancies. Based on that, I bought the plane, and had the IA complete an annual inspection, where a couple of other minor things came up (patched tube in one main that I asked him to replace, and the battery failed a "load test" (not surprising - it was many years old) so we installed a new Concorde).

    At that point, I did not yet have a tailwheel endorsement, so the previous owner agreed to fly it to my home airfield (90 miles). It was his first ever flight into a tower-controlled airport, much less into an airport underneath Class Bravo airspace. When he got out of the plane, he was so tense that he could barely walk! The plane flew just fine, and I used it to get my tailwheel endorsement and get 100 hours of tailwheel time.

    When it was time to sell that Citabria, the buyer (a tailwheel pilot who commercial from Wisconsin to buy the plane), wanted a demo flight from the front seat before finalizing he deal. I was uncomfortable flying from the rear seat myself (having never done so), so I asked my CFI buddy (same one who did my tailwheel endorsement) to fly with him. My CFI would do the takeoff and landing, and the buyer could fly it in between. Luckily for me, I had my CFI listed as a named insured on my policy so he could fly it as PIC.

    After a short flight, the new owner and I drove to the bank, transferred the money from his account to mine, signed over the paperwork, and it was his airplane. He had already arranged for insurance to start with his phone call, so he took care of that as well. Apparently, he liked my CFI (everybody does) and they arranged for a couple of hours of training before the buyer flew his "new" plane home to Wisconsin.
    Your experience makes sense. At the end of the day, there is some variability out there. From buying a known plane from a known seller at your airport, where you may be comfortable just writing a check. On the other end of the spectrum, you could be buying a plane you donít know from a seller you donít know. You can take the risk and hope all is as advertised but you could be surprised to folks who want to derision the buy with inspections, annuals, demo flights. But some sellers have been burned from doing all this and may be resistant and or they reject because they know what you will find. The less you know bout the seller and the less they know about you as a buyer the riskier it is on both sides of the ledger and it gets complicated.

    As for annuals, I remember one flight school owner told me the deal he would offer when buying is that a fresh annual needs to be completed by an A&P of his choosing. If the plane passes, he would complete the purchase and pay the annual as the new owner. If not, he would get a quote for the repairs and offer deduct the repair costs from the offered purchase price f reasonable or walk if the repair cost was high (fabric failed, engine shot). His view was that he didnít trust annuals performed by someone he didnít know, who could be a buddy of the owner. If it failed he said that the annual cost was the sellers to eat and it was a benefit to them to know what they own. His view was that his offer was for a plane not a project. If it canít pass annual, the seller doesnít have a plane for sale and he should be free to walk. Kind of harsh but had some logic.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  32. #32
    hotrod180's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    3,700
    Post Thanks / Like
    As far as test rides go....
    when I was selling my first airplane, a 1969 C150,
    one of the potential buyers wanted to test ride.
    He didn't own an airplane, so I agreed to fly over to his airport
    (on the other side of Puget Sound) to do it.
    Turns out he was planning on going in with some other guys on some sort of flying club arrangement.
    When we got back from the test ride, the other guys were all there--
    he hopped out and said "OK, who's next?".
    I called bullshit and headed home.
    Never heard from him / them again.
    My first lesson on airplane tire-kickers & free airplane rides.
    My policy ever since then is that the buyer had to make the effort to come to me.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
    Likes mixer, AKjurnees, RVBottomly liked this post

  33. #33

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    11
    Post Thanks / Like
    if I'm buying it I'm flying it how else you going to know
    Likes hotrod180 liked this post

  34. #34
    stewartb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Wolf Lake, AK
    Posts
    6,596
    Post Thanks / Like
    If you canít tell a good Cub from a bad one by looking at it? Hire someone who can. If you want to know how good a Cub flies? Let the seller demo it while you watch from the ground.
    Last edited by stewartb; 11-24-2021 at 08:04 PM.
    Likes Scooter7779h, RVBottomly liked this post

  35. #35

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    11
    Post Thanks / Like
    no you have to know how flys you can't tell how a cub is rigged by looking by looking at it
    Likes skywagon8a liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. FS: For Sale - 1954 PA18 - Estate Sale, White River, ON CA
    By jmartin0864 in forum Airplanes
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 05-20-2021, 05:26 AM
  2. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-12-2014, 06:02 PM
  3. 3 questions
    By James L. Smith in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 11-22-2006, 09:03 AM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •