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1st sale questions

Chogf22

Registered User
Camas, WA
Getting ready to sell my cub, and this will be the first airplane I’ve sold. What is the general consensus on flying with a potential buyer?

Put them in back? Let them sit up front? Review logbooks? I know there’s going to be a wide range of opinions on this, but I’d like to hear them. Thanks in advance!

Matt

p.s. Not leaving the community, Javron has my deposit already!


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As a person that has been lucky enough to purchase a couple airplanes, most I never even looked at in person prior to deposit and traveling with a big check to pick it up.

First thought: Don't let someone wreck your plane on a test flight. Are you an instructor? One of the important parts of training is to learn how to deal with people unfamiliar with aircraft. You need to sit where you are comfortable and can fly the plane. If they hand you a check for the full amount, then maybe you can let them take it for a spin.
 
As a person that has been lucky enough to purchase a couple airplanes, most I never even looked at in person prior to deposit and traveling with a big check to pick it up.

First thought: Don't let someone wreck your plane on a test flight. Are you an instructor? One of the important parts of training is to learn how to deal with people unfamiliar with aircraft. You need to sit where you are comfortable and can fly the plane. If they hand you a check for the full amount, then maybe you can let them take it for a spin.

I don’t know what the best practice is here. I would suggest talking to you insurance company and see what advice they have. I also think AOPA may be able to provide some advice through their legal services group with Template agreements etc. they can walk you through the process.

Not sure if this is a sound process but My father-in-law has sold a few planes. He would let folks tire kick. If they express interest, I recall he too would require a deposit earnest money with an agreement that he will make the airplane available for inspection by a competent A&P at the buyers cost while he watched at an agreed time and place where the potential buyer is responsible for any damage. You don’t want some idiot bringing his Hanger buddy to start wrenching on your plane doing punch tests and then walking leaving you with a repair bill. And if they do cause damage and walk, hopefully the earnest money will cover it if they become obstinate.

He would let folks inspect the logbooks or send them zerox copies, but keep custody of the books. You don’t want someone holding your logbooks hostage.

When they complete the deal, give him a check, and provide proof of insurance, he would give them an intro flight to get them started off right. He would encourage them to bring a certified CFI/ferry pilot to give them transition training and get it to their hanger. Some will reject but he thought going on record making the suggestion was sound advice and may help him if the buyers confidence is greater than their skill.

He was always concerned about giving demo flights since he isn’t a CFI and the buyers insurance may not cover the buyer until they complete x number of hours in type. This was the step that made him nervous. Bit, he felt the buyer won’t buy something having never flown it. And, aside from liability concerns, he thought showing them the plane is in good shape and how he flies it was the right thing to do and would reduce the chance someone ground loops their first flight doing something stupid and then sues him arguing the plane wasn’t airworthy. Again maybe aopa may have some ideas on how to structure things to reduce your risk.

Good luck.
 
Make it simple, if you own the airplane outright, CASH! In this case, a simple AC8050-2 bill of sale is all you need. I’ve known several transactions where $80,000 to over $100,000 in cash has changed hands, and that was the only way the seller would accept payment. The buyer may want a written bill of sale for sales tax purposes back home. If you have a loan, then best to work with an escrow company.

As for flying the airplane, if you are comfortable flying from either seat, let him have his choice, if not, you get the front. If hi doesn’t like that, let him go look at other airplanes.

Maintenance records are all open. I would suggest scanning everything into a pdf and send the prospective buyer a copy either on a thumb drive or a dvd. Dropbox is another option. Keep in mind, each buyer will want to see those records. Include the flight manual, supplements, and W&B documents. All 337s. Depending on how old your airplane is, maybe only back to the last recover, but in todays world, megabytes are cheap.

Prepurchase inspection will be whatever you and the buyer agree on. Could be as simple as a quick walk around or as complex as a full annual. Have a written agreement about any repairs BEFORE-anyone opens the cowl or inspection panels.

If selling international, have a written agreement on who is responsible for for all documents, labor to disassemble and containerize the airplane. These will run several thousand dollars. If flying it to an international destination, talk to a DAR about how the transaction needs to transpire. This gets very tricky.


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I sold my first airplane to a guy in the lower 48. He was coming to Anchorage to pick it up and pay me the next day. His instructor, a guy I had known for several years, asked if he could take the plane for a quick flight to familiarize himself with it. My attention had turned to my new-to-me 180 so I had no objection. 30 minutes into his fight the engine broke a rod, blew a hole in the case, destroyed the engine, and forced a no damage landing (floats) on the Big Su. Sale lost. The new motor took 10 weeks to get. I had two airplanes and had borrowed against the sale to buy the 180. Now I needed $40K to fix the first plane. Rough times but I got through it. My attitude now? If you want to fly it? Buy it. Coincidentally, I’ve never flown an airplane I’ve bought, either.
 
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you all for the detailed insight. I just wrapped up the annual, and I took a lot of pictures with panels off to make a pre-purchase inspection easier. I’ve had the plane for 9 years now, and never flew it before I bought it, but had a friend who flew it for me.

It’s a ‘79 with 1880 TT, a 490 hr b2b, and most of the Alaska mods. I have a guy coming to look at it in a few weeks, if that doesn’t work out I will post it here first, then open to barnstormers as a last resort. Happy to answer questions in the mean time, feel free to PM me if you see this and are interested. 130 is the asking price.

Again, thank you all for the help!


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Smart decision to list it on Barnstormers as a last resort. You would not believe the number of cranks, crackpots, and deluded dreamers Barnstormers brings to your inbox.

I had one guy suggest I take his beat up PA11 AND give him $15Gs in trade for my new 2020 180hp PA12.

Pilots tend to make purchases a pride thing so they can brag to their buddies about how great a deal they got. When I was selling my Beaver in ‘05 a senior VP of Microsoft tried to beat me up claiming poverty over a $2,000 difference and then showed up to look at it in his own brand new KingAir 200. The fuel cost alone for that flight from the Coast was well over that.

Maybe I’m just idealistic and unrealistic, but I can’t imagine Cubcrafters, Javron, or Airbus has customers offering them a third of the list price for their products.

Selling an airplane has never been any fun for me even when I got my asking price. Don’t be afraid to ask for what you believe the plane is truly worth and then stick to your guns.

On the upside, just think about how happy your wife will be with all that extra spending money she will have to spend for you.

I agree with the others: Don't let anyone fly your airplane until the check clears and you have the cash in hand. Good luck with the sale.
 
I agree with the others: Don't let anyone fly your airplane until the check clears and you have the cash in hand.

Well that depends on the airplane and the seller. I would have no problem at all putting a potential purchaser in either front seat of my PA-28. I have a lot of time in both seats and fly it equally well (or badly) from both. Now the FX-3 would be a different story. I have many hours in the back seat of tandem seat aircraft but they were nearly all gliders. I would need a lot more FX-3 back seat time before I put a potential purchaser in the front seat.
 
Sorry that’s bullshit to expect large amounts of money to change hands without flying it first. If you aren’t willing to fly with the prospective buyer or let an instructor you trust give them a test flight then you are not a serious seller. Good luck finding a sucker. My only exception would be if the plane is out of annual - and even then the terms of sale would be conditional on annual and test flight and it would be priced accordingly. If you won’t let someone fly it then you have something very big to hide. Fly with them in the place where you are comfortable.
 
Sorry that’s bullshit to expect large amounts of money to change hands without flying it first. If you aren’t willing to fly with the prospective buyer or let an instructor you trust give them a test flight then you are not a serious seller. Good luck finding a sucker. My only exception would be if the plane is out of annual - and even then the terms of sale would be conditional on annual and test flight and it would be priced accordingly. If you won’t let someone fly it then you have something very big to hide. Fly with them in the place where you are comfortable.

Ya, but it is a sellers market right now. So, sellers are in a better position to define what they want.

And, most sellers don’t want to get inundated by potential buyers who just want a free ride with no intent to close a deal. So, most sellers like to see some earnest money before spending a lot of time and effort.

As for flying it, the question is who is liable if something goes wrong. Some folks are fine giving rides; some aren’t. If something happens before sale it’s on the seller. You can say it should be but the seller is trying to sell not get sued and not all sellers still have their license. So then what? Bring in a CFI at the buyers expense, some buyers don’t want to spend the money.

Next up on the risk ladder is letting the buyer fly it. This is where things get murky. So, the seller can keep them on their insurance, but they don’t know much of anything about the potential buyer and insurance company’s know the first 10 hours in a new airplane are the riskiest. You can have a situation where the buyer can’t get insurance yet and the seller is being asked to let some guy they have never met fly an airplane the buyer can’t get insurance on and the seller again may or may not have insurance. So if something goes wrong it’s on the seller and the buyer will walk. Not super awesome for a seller. Even if the seller has insurance, if something goes wrong they get a broken airplane and an insurance claim. Not what they wanted which may be particularly unwelcome if it was the buyers fault.

With a cub though, things should be easier. Most folks should be able to get some dual and show up insured. My background with a sale was with a pitts. Buyer was stepping up from a basic trainer and had no time in type and insurance wouldn’t cover him. He wanted to fly it which one would as you noted. We kept insurance on and asked for a deposit. My father in law gave him a demo flight and let the buyer fly it with him. It worked out but we were a little nervous. Maybe there are better ways to deal with this but with some sales insurance creates a donut hole leaving the seller at risk.


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My last two aircraft purchases included a pre-purchase flight and inspection after a purchase agreement was signed with a money deposited. Purchase was contingent on flight and inspection being acceptable. One was a Husky the other a Meridian. Both flights included the current owner of the aircraft. I wouldn’t want it another way.
 
Put them in back? Let them sit up front? Review logbooks? I know there’s going to be a wide range of opinions on this, but I’d like to hear them. Thanks in advance!

Never said no test flights. People should take the time to read a post before they get their panties in a wad, especially when they are not the ones asking for other members’ opinions and advice. You’re welcome.
 
I can’t remember buying an airplane that was in annual, all have been out of annual and some by many years. It would be impossible to legally fly one of these airplanes. In times gone by, I flew some of them home right after the sale. More recently, I’ve completed the annual where the aircraft was, then flew it home. Of course there have been some where I took them apart before brining them home.


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Never said no test flights. People should take the time to read a post before they get their panties in a wad, especially when they are not the ones asking for other members’ opinions and advice. You’re welcome.

It’s not completely relevant to airplanes, but with the last boat I bought the way it works was there was a contract signed, cash was put in escrow, and a test ride captained by the sellers agent who is a licensed, insured captain took me out. It wasn’t a joy ride. Went out for about 30 minutes, proved everything worked and identified what didn’t. Adjusted price for items found to be broken and then closed. But with antique aviation it’s a little more random. No one wants to spend money on escrow, lawyers, CFIs etc.


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Escrow accounts (with title search and earnest money) are very much standard in antique aviation - AOPA partner aero-space reports is fantastic and not expensive at all for the security they provide both parties in the transaction.

It is a sellers market, for sure - but it you want top dollar asking price you'd better expect a thorough process, including a pre-purchase inspection/annual and a flight in a flyable, airworthy plane that is worth what you are asking. A buyer is taking most of the risk here - so you should be comfortable with letting them understand what they are buying. A flight really is important to know the rigging and whether the plane is straight.

I looked (or tried to) at a 180 this summer where the guy wouldn't even let me unzip the headliner before handing him a pile of cash. Nope. GTFO with that garbage. If you wanna sell the plane, you gotta play ball. And a flight is part of the deal, so is answering phone calls from looky-lous. However if someone puts in the effort to travel to you - often from another state - with hat in hand and a check in in the other, you should expect to give them a ride, answer the same questions the other guys have asked, and make the plane available for close inspection. If the engine throws a rod during the test flight - that really sucks - but it's still the owners plane and it could have very well blown up with their family on board. If it holds up for that half hour of test flights, it was meant to be. Bringing a mechanic to look at the plane is not cheap at all - again standard operating procedure these days.

A lot of these planes on the open market are in pretty bad shape with pencil whipped annuals for decades. It may be a hot market but that doesn't mean you bring dumb money to the table.

If you don't want to do this yourself - pay a broker - but you're gonna have a hard time getting full asking price without the standard song and dance. Of course you could get lucky and a sucker could walk in your door.

I think there's a fair bit of misinformation out there about actual transactions going down - people are posting opinions and haven't actually put their skin in the game. I bought my 3rd plane (and my second 180) just a few weeks ago - and walked on more than a dozen that I looked at quite hard and thought I wanted to buy for real - but then found serious issues with that I was not comfortable owning. That guy could also get really unlucky and buy a bomb that would detonate in their first 30 minutes of flight.

It’s not completely relevant to airplanes, but with the last boat I bought the way it works was there was a contract signed, cash was put in escrow, and a test ride captained by the sellers agent who is a licensed, insured captain took me out. It wasn’t a joy ride. Went out for about 30 minutes, proved everything worked and identified what didn’t. Adjusted price for items found to be broken and then closed. But with antique aviation it’s a little more random. No one wants to spend money on escrow, lawyers, CFIs etc.


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Getting ready to sell my cub, and this will be the first airplane I’ve sold. What is the general consensus on flying with a potential buyer?

Put them in back? Let them sit up front? Review logbooks? I know there’s going to be a wide range of opinions on this, but I’d like to hear them. Thanks in advance!

Matt

p.s. Not leaving the community, Javron has my deposit already!


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How many inquiries have you had since you posted an interest in selling? That’s the best way to sell. Let it be known you’re considering it and let the buyer track you down.
 
.....My attitude now? If you want to fly it? Buy it. Coincidentally, I’ve never flown an airplane I’ve bought, either.

I wouldn't buy a car, even new, without a test drive. Why would it be different for an airplane?
In an airplane though, I'd expect a test ride -- as pax, not as PIC.
That said, as I recall I bought my current airplane (C180) without a ride first-
because I knew the owner & a number of his flying buddies,
and was somewhat familiar with the airplane & comfortable that it didn't have any big issues.
 
If the prospective buyer wants to fly the plane prior to purchase, fly it with him/her in the back seat. Controls or no, up to you. If you're not an instructor, experienced in type, don't get careless letting them fly the plane with you in it. YOU can demo pretty much everything they need to see.

Do a few stalls to the full buffet, some steep turns, all at altitude. That'll let them know the rigging is good. Everything else is just "Does that work?", which is easy.

My last Cub, I had "conversations", a VERY long and aggravating one from a member of this forum, who, after asking for a bunch of photos, documentation, etc, then told me I should fly it to HIM, and if he liked it he'd pay me far less than asking price. If he didn't like it, he'd pay my gas to get it home......Those folks are out there, and on this forum.

The young man who actually bought the plane flew out here with his Dad in their Bonanza, accompanied by their mechanic, who did the pre buy, and the young man's flight instructor, who I knew well. Flight Instructor said, go fly with the owner (me), which we did for a short flight, after the pre buy.

Young man handed me a certified check for the asking price, climbed in with his CFI and they all left in the two planes. That whole process took about three hours. Amazing!

I wish you a similarly great experience, good luck on the sale!

MTV
 
Have had pleasant transactions for the most part. Several bought and sold. One dude wanted a sales agreement which was fine, however that was the only one I ever had an issue with. He had it inspected by an IA and himself, reviewed logs personally, and refused a test flight in it. Came with his pilot a month or more later, flew it away. Called me a couple weeks later wanting money back due to a log discrepancy they dug up. It was there, no doubt about it. We all missed it. Also had a squawk about a gear box. I wasn’t playing ball but offered a full refund plus travel expenses upon the aircraft’s safe return and annual inspection. That was the last I heard about it. Pretty sure he though I needed the money. Same guy calls my boat broker friend and strokes him off every year or so.

There’s lots of wheeler/dealers out there. Word of mouth within a type community is the best way. Like my grandad always said, if a mans word is no good his paper probably isn’t either.
 
There are all sorts out there. It’s tough when you post it on line and get interest from folks you don’t know. There are horror stories from both buyers and sellers.

The buyer is nervous about spending the money and time traveling to see something. They go through the process to find out they seller doesn’t have an honest view of their airplane, books are out of order, and or they are just difficult to deal with and won’t let you do what you need to evaluate the plane. And each time you go through the process you have to blow a couple grand with cfis, A&Ps travel expenses, etc. gets frustrating when you have to walk when things aren’t as represented.

Sellers are worried about wasting their time with tire kickers, folks who want something for nothing leaving them holding the bag.

It’s just a stressful time all around. Easier to sell to someone you know. Both parties come to the deal with more respect and trust. And the cost and time involved is easier.


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If I remember correctly that cub was set up for Alaska pretty well. I would call your old IA and have him put the word out you are looking to sell. Fed-X is moving more pilots up here and they have money to burn. Good cubs will sell by word of mouth. I have done cash with my last two plane buys and it works great!! I would only let someone fly in the front if I knew them. Lots of pilots will say they can fly a taildragger but even a cub can be hard for some. Brought my Javron home in September, I was going to sell my cub but my wife said I have to wait until new one is flying. Check PM.
DENNY
 
For perspective, right now in Bozeman, people from elsewhere are paying literally millions of dollars for houses without ever seeing them.....seriously.

Go figure. As an old friend once told me: "The cheapest thing in an airplane is the pilot".

True dat.

MTV
 
Alaskan sales of the right planes are like ravens eating grasshoppers....never enough. We're running out of older basic off airport capable aircraft in our fleet. Asking prices are amazing among a dwindling stock.

Gary
 
True, but they do get to walk away at any point right up to, and 3 days after closing - and only lose their earnest money - maybe. And they will get a detailed inspection and disclosures. And are protected by all grades of laws and contracts.

When the money goes up, so do the expectations - so don't kid yourself into thinking someone is just going to drop off a shopping bag full of cash for your plane and fly it away in 10 minutes. That may have happened to that one pilot at the bar one time, but it ain't the norm. Any plane approaching or north of six figures, is a serious transaction - there ain't many ballers willing to piss that kind of cash into the wind. I don't care what the inner toobs say. ;-)

For perspective, right now in Bozeman, people from elsewhere are paying literally millions of dollars for houses without ever seeing them.....seriously.

Go figure. As an old friend once told me: "The cheapest thing in an airplane is the pilot".

True dat.

MTV
 
Hey Scooter, you musta been crazy to buy my -12 from what these guys say. Go figure. Or me for buying my 180, or the XP before that!
 
I wouldn't buy a car, even new, without a test drive. Why would it be different for an airplane?
In an airplane though, I'd expect a test ride -- as pax, not as PIC.
That said, as I recall I bought my current airplane (C180) without a ride first-
because I knew the owner & a number of his flying buddies,
and was somewhat familiar with the airplane & comfortable that it didn't have any big issues.

Pretty good info here.

This weekend we completed a purchase of a cheap set of wheels, a 7 ECA. I have known about the plane for a while, life changed a couple weeks ago and we need to travel to Juneau lots this winter- airline tickets are $150-$170 each way, so having cheap wheels is worth it. Maule still in recover.

I called the mechanics that have done the last couple annuals, guys I know and trust, and got good words from them. Talked to the owner through texts as he was working out of town, he promised to hold it for a pre-buy. Took a week to get the pre-buy done, (I was only concerned with wing spars and engine). Got word that the plane was good, sent the check the next day.

I did not fly the plane, nor did I run it. BUT mechanics that I trust, and have done major work for me, knew and flew the plane recently. And the price was right.

A number of years ago I traveled to Anchorage area to purchase a PA-12. The mechanic had purchased it as a wreck, and put it back together. I wanted to do a compression test, check the screen and do a test flight. Upon my arrival the owner, a mechanic, said he had already pulled and cleaned the screen and told me it was clean; first flag, as I had known an inflight engine failure had caused the crash. I needed to see the screen myself or by a mechanic paid by ME.

I decided to hold off on the compression test and panel pulling until I got a flight in it. Took all of about 20 minutes to do a stall or two, couple turns, and have him put it strait and level and let go of the controls, then come back to the airport. The owner did the flying with me in the back seat.

When the owner pulled the power back for landing the engine quit. The owner said it did that sometimes.

I had $1,000 in travel already to see this plane, with over a weeks notice to the owner, and A&P. The plane had a history of inflight engine failure, and the owner/mechanic was flying it with the engine commonly failing during low power settings.

I walked away without any concern for reimbursement for the flight or effort the owner had gone to. The plane was not airworthy as advertised, and honestly not safe.

Getting even a test ride on unknown aircraft is well worth your time. But, as long as the person flying it will do what you ask within reason- hands off strait and level, stalls and such, being a passenger will provide you with the information you need to evaluate the plane.

On a cub, I would expect to take a serious buyer for a flight, I might let them handle the controls once above 500 feet, but I would be landing it.
 
This is exactly what I was looking for when I started this thread. My bottom line take away is the instructor’s favorite answer - “it depends”.

Marrying the wishes of the buyer with the responsible conduct of any and all inspecting/touching/wrenching/flying seems like it might vary with every interaction. Certainly not a one size fits all approach.

For what it’s worth, I’ll post on how it eventually goes down!


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It’s funny out there.

I didn’t sell to a guy I thought for sure was going to buy it, he talked a big game. I even flew him in it. I was really disappointed that I wasted my time.

The next guy comes along, calls, buys it sight unseen.
 
As a buyer, I would prefer to get a flight in the airplane before closing the sale, just to confirm there are no major issues with rigging, etc. But also to confirm that all the avionics work as claimed. I bought two planes that way. In both cases, the seller flew the plane, while I observed, checked out avionics, etc.

I also bought a '65 Champion 7ECA without ever flying it. I looked it over with a knowledgeable buddy, and we thought it looked OK. I then had an experienced "ragwing" IA do a pre-buy inspection, which also came out OK, with just a couple of minor discrepancies. Based on that, I bought the plane, and had the IA complete an annual inspection, where a couple of other minor things came up (patched tube in one main that I asked him to replace, and the battery failed a "load test" (not surprising - it was many years old) so we installed a new Concorde).

At that point, I did not yet have a tailwheel endorsement, so the previous owner agreed to fly it to my home airfield (90 miles). It was his first ever flight into a tower-controlled airport, much less into an airport underneath Class Bravo airspace. When he got out of the plane, he was so tense that he could barely walk! The plane flew just fine, and I used it to get my tailwheel endorsement and get 100 hours of tailwheel time.

When it was time to sell that Citabria, the buyer (a tailwheel pilot who commercial from Wisconsin to buy the plane), wanted a demo flight from the front seat before finalizing he deal. I was uncomfortable flying from the rear seat myself (having never done so), so I asked my CFI buddy (same one who did my tailwheel endorsement) to fly with him. My CFI would do the takeoff and landing, and the buyer could fly it in between. Luckily for me, I had my CFI listed as a named insured on my policy so he could fly it as PIC.

After a short flight, the new owner and I drove to the bank, transferred the money from his account to mine, signed over the paperwork, and it was his airplane. He had already arranged for insurance to start with his phone call, so he took care of that as well. Apparently, he liked my CFI (everybody does) and they arranged for a couple of hours of training before the buyer flew his "new" plane home to Wisconsin.
 
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