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Looking for Options for Electronic Ignition

WWhunter

WWhunter

FRIEND
Near the Headwaters of the Mighty Mississippi Rive
I've been looking at the different options for replacing my magnetos with EI. This is on an experimental with and O-320.

Was mainly interested in the Emag/Pmag but have been doing a bit of internet searching and have read other options may be better. I've looked at the Pmag, SDS, Surefly, etc.

What are the pros and cons of the various units?
 
WWhunter said:
I've been looking at the different options for replacing my magnetos with EI. This is on an experimental with and O-320.
Click to expand...

Have you looked at Light Speed Engineering Plasma systems? They are standard on all CubCrafters experimentals. It's the only aircraft electronic ignition I have any experience with and it seems to work well on my YIO-360.

The only downside that I see is the requirement for a completely independent backup power source. Something else to be maintained and replaced. I have seen reports that aggressive leaning can result in burnt valves but don't know it that's a common problem or it it only happens on carbureted engines.

https://lightspeed-aero.com/
 
I have dual Pmags. I didn’t add the module to allow custom programming but did add the A-B curve switch on the panel. So far they’ve been reliable and have performed well. Timing them is simple. I love the auto plugs and harness. I have thought about changing to a totally non-mechanical ignition and if I do I’ll use EFFI’s System 32. Similar to Lightspeed they machine a trigger into your ring gear support so timing is foolproof. The spark duration is 32° of the stroke, which is pretty interesting. They offer a bus manager that’s essentially an automatic battery switch so you can carry an isolated spare EarthX in case of electrical failure. I have no problems with Pmags, I just always wonder about what to try next.

My fav feature of EI is for starting my fuel injected motor. When hot? Flood it and crank it. The spark is hot enough to light it up every time. Old school FI hot start stories are a thing of the past. You’ll need to be careful with leaning. The old pull til it stumbles and enrich a little doesn’t work with EI. It’ll run smooth when leaner than you’re used to. Watch your temps.
 
frequent_flyer, Yes I was looking at the lightspeed-aero also. The only downside is the additional power requirement for backup. Still weighing the options.

stewartb, The Pmags have been at the top of my list. I may eventually change out the carb to a throttle body or FI system, but that'll be in the future. Actually the only con I have read is the 500 hour R/R check. But honestly,500 hours is a lot of flying.

Thanks!
 
WWhunter said:
frequent_flyer, Yes I was looking at the lightspeed-aero also. The only downside is the additional power requirement for backup. Still weighing the options.

stewartb, The Pmags have been at the top of my list. I may eventually change out the carb to a throttle body or FI system, but that'll be in the future. Actually the only con I have read is the 500 hour R/R check. But honestly,500 hours is a lot of flying.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Pmags are interesting. You position them any way you want and then time them with an air tube after indexing the crank to TDC. They fire every TdC whether compression or exhaust so which TDC isn’t important. My only bitch is their wire terminal blocks are a bit fragile for the location. Using itty bitty screwdrivers to secure itty bitty wires in a confined space is frustrating. They could improve on that part. Not a deal breaker, just not ideal.
 
frequent_flyer said:
The only downside that I see is the requirement for a completely independent backup power source. Something else to be maintained and replaced.
Click to expand...

A note to ANYONE running an ignition system that requires external power to operate/start: YOU NEED A BACKUP BATTERY! If you have an electrical emergency in flight, the first thing that happens is the master switch is shut off. This turns off the power to your ignition system. And if you have a system that generates it's own power, remember that power is only produced above a certain RPM. So when you maneuver and reduce power, you can shut down your engine (and this has happened).

You do not need a second full sized ships battery as a backup. you simply need a battery capable of powering your ignition system for a max load of fuel. These days, this means a battery weighing ounces not pounds. Wired correctly, this backup battery will stay charged and ONLY power the ignition system, so if employed, the aircraft may go dark, but the engine will continue to run.

Web
 
Few guys are too worried about backing up EI. Add EFI and it’s more of a concern. Lots of guys have both and manage the power thing easily.
 
Three CarbonCubs and 1300 hours total flying them, All with lightspeed, never a problem. Replace the spark plug leads every 500 hrs and uses inexpensive auto sparkplugs. Lightspeed has a really good troubleshooting section on their website if you run into troubles. they will run on the battery, then run on the alternator if need be, then backup battery is supposed to be good for 30 minutes. I have heard there hasnt been any engine stoppage from failed power sources in CarbonCubs with lightspeed.
Have heard of early lithium batteries shutting off from over/undervoltage shutdown protectionk. Flew home on backup battery.
jim
 
Not sure what you mean about adding EFI. Electronic ignitions require power from an external source to function. Whether it works in conjunction with a carb or injection is irrelevant.

Web
 
wireweinie said:
If you have an electrical emergency in flight, the first thing that happens is the master switch is shut off. This turns off the power to your ignition system.
Click to expand...

All CubCrafters aircraft have each ignition module powered by a "battery direct" circuit breaker. The engine runs just fine with master off! In the event of an electrical system malfunction the master goes off saving all main battery power for the ignition. Only when the main battery is drained is the emergency battery selected.
 
wireweinie said:
Not sure what you mean about adding EFI. Electronic ignitions require power from an external source to function. Whether it works in conjunction with a carb or injection is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

EFI, at least in my experience, means Electronic Fuel Injection. It does not work without electrical power.
 
More reserve power required. One member here runs EI and EFI and doesn't have an accessory case on the engine so no mechanical fuel pump. He uses dual electric fuel pumps. That plane's as electric dependent as I can imagine and he gets around quite nicely. He does maintain a second battery for backup.

Here's EFII's bus manager. I imagine there are other similar systems out there. https://www.flyefii.com/media/Bus-Manager-Installation-Instructions-1-6-20.pdf
 
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That makes sense, but if you are using true EFI, then use a bigger backup battery.

Think about your 'what ifs'. In this case what if the ships charging system or the battery itself is the cause of a failure. That backup battery is what gets you home. or at least to the ground in a controlled fashion.

The whole point here is to be as safe as possible/practical. Hand propping with a battery that powers the ignition system is safer than being stuck some where on the ground. Running the ignition on a backup battery is infinitely safer than landing power off anywhere. Don't get bit by a single point of failure.

Web
 
Scouter said:
then backup battery is supposed to be good for 30 minutes.
Click to expand...

That's one of those YMMV situations. CubCrafters requires the emergency ignition battery to be changed once a year. I have seen two reports of new batteries that did not hold voltage under load. I have chosen to load test my emergency ignition battery and only replace it when I don't think it will provide 30 minutes of operation.

My load testing is in two forms. I monitor voltage drop during a 10 second emergency ignition pre-flight test. I also performed two inflight tests of the emergency ignition battery and demonstrated 30 minute operation. I now have a good data set for trend monitoring.

I also believe you'd have to badly mismanage an electrical malfunction to actually ever need the emergency ignition battery.
 
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stewartb said:
A good primer for exp EI.

https://www.flyefii.com/products/efii-systems/ignition-comparison/
Click to expand...

I looked at this, along with the EFI, but it's more in-depth work than I want to tackle currently. As the plane is gravity feed, that would require a return line or at least installing a header tank. All doable, but that's a project for another day. So far, Pmag is looking like the easiest install, which equates to less time.
Thanks everyone for the help so far.
 
Huh? You must be reading about their EFI? The ignition system has nothing to do with fuel injection.

There’s nothing wrong with Pmags, especially with a carb. The guys running EFI can benefit from better ignitions. I’m somewhere in the middle. I’ll stand pat with my Pmags because I’d rather spend my airplane dollars on other priorities.
 
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I have been using the P mags for about 1200 hours now. I have been very pleased. Simple, light, and they work. I did have a total electrical failure, (with a dead battery and everything else), and the engine continued to run fine on the internal generators in the P mags. Keep it simple keep it light. Just offering my experience with the P mags.


Bill
 
Hi Bill

Did you note the RPM when the internal generator cut off? Did that match the claims from the manual?

Web
 
wireweinie said:
Hi Bill

Did you note the RPM when the internal generator cut off? Did that match the claims from the manual?

Web
Click to expand...
I had one incident with the Pmags when I ran the ship's battery dead. As I recall the Pmags stopped sparking at about 700+/- rpm. I had to paddle to shore. :sad:
 
I believe it says it cuts off at about 450, which is actually lower than my idle so I can’t really say. With the lightweight composite props it’s pretty hard to get the idle real low because there’s just no flywheel effect. Sorry I can’t help more


Bill
 
Thank you Stuart. I know mine works at idle which is about 650 RPM. Perhaps they only guarantee it to 900.

Bill
 
stewartb said:
Huh? You must be reading about their EFI? The ignition system has nothing to do with fuel injection.

There’s nothing wrong with Pmags, especially with a carb. The guys running EFI can benefit from better ignitions. I’m somewhere in the middle. I’ll stand pat with my Pmags because I’d rather spend my airplane dollars on other priorities.
Click to expand...

stewartb,
Apologies, yes, I want off topic a bit. I was just relaying that I had looked at their system and also looked at their EFI system. Should have left that part out of the conversation.

For the replies, it looks like my original plan on using the Pmags is a sound idea. The low RPM is a slight detractor, but only due to the plane may be on floats. It already is set up to idle very slow with the stock magnetos, so may just replace one so I still have another point of redundancy. Thanks all!!
 
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The low RPM thing is only with battery power turned of. In that same condition any other EI would fail at any RPM. Pmag says their mags are totally self-powered at around 1200-1500 rpm. That unique feature is why the majority of us use them. They slow idle very nicely when the airplane’s electrical system is functional. There are planes using Emags in one or both positions. Emags aren’t self-powered. Everyone I know uses dual Pmags.

If you’re into tuning and tweaking add their Eicad module and you can fine tune to your heart’s content. I put an A/B curve switch on my panel and rarely use that. All I want is the motor to start easily and run smoothly and my Pmags have satisfied that.
 
stewartb said:
I put an A/B curve switch on my panel and rarely use that.
Click to expand...
Stewart, what did you find when you did use the A/B switch. Was there more or less power, fuel consumption, smoothness, etc -- anything? I just installed the jumper and didn't check it further.
 
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