Anti-STOL Article on AVweb

That didn’t take long…

https://www.avweb.com/uncategorized/guest-blog-the-limits-of-stol-competitions/

If he wants to be taken seriously he should get his facts correct first. Obvious he is ignorant to many other things to do with this event.

"In Arkansas, in my estimation, they’re doing stuff with airplanes that has no real-world application unless we’re searching for creative ways to raise insurance rates."

In HIS estimation......that says it all, not a real off airport pilot, and I don't care if he is the prez of the back country Utah [FONT=Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]organization. Get him off a 2,000' long dirt strip that's on a sectional, that he probably thinks is demanding, and point him at a 8500' ridge that no one has ever landed before, or a tight gravel bar, also a virgin, and let's see how he does. Bet he'd wish he had the skills needed to safely fly the course. [/FONT]

Real journalism is dead.

Remember, this is an editorial not to be confused with news or journalism. Editorial / opinion pieces have been a part of newspapers / magazines forever - and are rarely based on facts.

Bertorelli has opinion pieces in Avweb almost every week.

sj

Yes, and welcome to Facebook for Super Cub.....I used to think we could have an "intelligent" discussion on this forum.....maybe not so much.

MTV

I like Roy, but I disagree with his article. No doubt the pilots who choose to fly ArkanSTOL understand the risks, and they have chosen to match their skills against the challenge. I see nothing wrong with that. If you bend the prop on your plane so be it, you made the decision to compete.

I am no fan of someone telling me I can’t/shouldn’t do something that is legal.

I like watching the STOL contests of whatever type they may be, I think we have all benefitted from equipment design derived from competition.

Having flown a fair amount in Utah, and a bit in Idaho, I can emphatically say Utah backcountry is nothing like the demands of Idaho. For the most part Utah is pretty wide open with some bumpy or humpy strips at times. I can see how there is practical use of the skills at ArkanSTOL in Idaho and likely Alaska (I have only been a passenger in Alaska and it was tight quarters) too.

Having more skills than you need for real world practical purposes is NEVER a bad thing.

As for the Trent Palmer reference in the article, Trent recently said in a YouTube video his insurance currently precludes him from races/STOL events.

I'd wager the majority of aircraft owners and operators agree with the article.

Utah-Jay said:

Having more skills than you need for real world practical purposes is NEVER a bad thing.

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Of course this is true, but attaining those skills exposes one to dangers others will never accept nor agree is acceptable for anyone. It is simply a fact of life. If the "everyman" is to fly - all danger has to be removed to the point flying is pointless for some. If you're in a SuperCub, you're probably in the later category, and as such far outnumbered by the straight, level, aircraft is only point A to B crowd.

It hasn't been that long ago (maybe it has: 20 years) - they had the CAP kids out looking for "non standard" (TW airplanes) airplanes and pilots. I ended up on a list in Florida.

As for "competition" itself, I have much admiration for Pierce. It takes special skill to fly a beater SuperCub well, and to the point you beat the gadget crowd - and he did. The fact that he displayed skill though, makes him and everyone similar a target by the straight and level (narrow) crowd. The "competition" in question is something quite different though.

"stewartb

I'd wager the majority of aircraft owners and operators agree with the article."

Undoubtedly.
​

stewartb said:

I'd wager the majority of aircraft owners and operators agree with the article.

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I agree with Stewart.

In other STOL events, the racing is limited to an arena. In ArkanSTOL, it appears that the racing proceeds over land accessible to the general public, which raises public awareness, regardless of the actual risk to the public.

There are a lot of parallels between STOL Drags and stock car racing (NASCAR), evolving from genuine backcountry performance needs (e.g. bootlegging) into formalized events. The auto racing industry has gone through multiple rounds of introspection, balancing safety of the participants and spectators vs. the thrill of racing, and they're still ongoing (see https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/30/...-crash-halo-bahrain-gp-f1-spt-intl/index.html )

In marketing, "perception is reality". If Evans and authors like him have tapped into or is influencing public perception, regardless if he gets the facts somewhat wrong, there will eventually be a public intervention, and the controversy will likely bleed into general backcountry flying. STOL racing has become an industry with a considerable public profile - after all, this event was sponsored by Aviat.

I don't participate in STOL Drags, but I do a lot of backcountry, off-airport landings for pleasure. I'd like to see the STOL industry handle this early, before it blows up on all of us.

I read through about half of it before abandoning the effort to understand someone who is an obstructionist. His opinion trumps anyone who favors STOL activities or opposes his final determination. It feels like half the country is okay with stomping on freedom and the remaining half has to suck it up and do as they’re told.
A couple days ago I changed my verbiage when folks call wanting to know what are the Covid travel restrictions or mandates for the City of Platinum.. No more will I waste my breath explaining my mandates are not mandates, they’re asks. I haven’t nor will I violate an individuals rights. Now I just say... the only mandate in place is “common sense”. Do I need to explain that to you?

Guess I’m just sick and tired of these experts sticking their noses in everyone’s business.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Unfortunately it is apparent that for the majority of people that enter arkanstol don't have the skills required to safely compete. If you let them to continue to crash, the neighbors and FAA will get involved and close down the airport in the usual over reaction fashion, and we will loose another cool spot to fly. What's the answer? Keeping people safe from themselves? A more stringent qualifying? The whole stol movement has such momentum that it is in the limelight, good or bad. I've been saying for awhile these youtube warriors need to hold themselves to a higher level of professionalism due to there big impact on GA and people in general. Accidents at stol events hurt all of us who enjoy this kind of off airport flying. I'm not one to support banning something to save someone who is too ignorant to know they can get hurt, but I feel like this is threading a fine line of loosing what we love to do. You can't tell me this doesn't effect our insurance rates? The Red Scout from last year was a total loss and was on the insurance salvage site.

RaisedByWolves said:

You can't tell me this doesn't effect our insurance rates? The Red Scout from last year was a total loss and was on the insurance salvage site.

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That may be why my policy, which is only a year and a half old, has a "no racing or practicing for races" exclusion while MTV's older policy does not. Same company.

courierguy said:

Bet he'd wish he had the skills needed to safely fly the course.

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I watched the Arkan STOL course description/demonstration video and have no doubt at all that I could fly that course in my FX-3. However, I would not attempt to race that course trying to do anything it took to save a few seconds off my time.

Very few real world STOL skills have anything to do with speed and the article was not, in my opinion, Anti-STOL.

RaisedByWolves said:

Unfortunately it is apparent that for the majority of people that enter arkanstol don't have the skills required to safely compete. If you let them to continue to crash, the neighbors and FAA will get involved and close down the airport in the usual over reaction fashion, and we will loose another cool spot to fly. What's the answer? Keeping people safe from themselves? A more stringent qualifying? The whole stol movement has such momentum that it is in the limelight, good or bad. I've been saying for awhile these youtube warriors need to hold themselves to a higher level of professionalism due to there big impact on GA and people in general. Accidents at stol events hurt all of us who enjoy this kind of off airport flying. I'm not one to support banning something to save someone who is too ignorant to know they can get hurt, but I feel like this is threading a fine line of loosing what we love to do. You can't tell me this doesn't effect our insurance rates? The Red Scout from last year was a total loss and was on the insurance salvage site.

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You couldn't have said it better. I think this was the point Roy was trying to make in the opinion piece. I think this is the reason why we dont see the RAF sponsoring such events. But you're right at the end of the day no one is telling anyone to not take risks, but when their risks effect all our flying then there needs to be line drawn.

I fly ag for a living, and you should see the way most people freak out when I tell them that. They think we’re drunk cowboys that crash airplanes daily and coat the schoolyard with poisons, the industry has been a pretty clean one for 30-40 years but that’s still the public perception. Most airports don’t want us to run off them, and I’ve had every creed, color, and religion file complaints with various government agencies on me. The wires, trees, and other obstacles don’t bother me, but a stranger videoing me or making a call keeps me up at night.

STOL competitions will end up with the same perception if some serious self policing doesn’t begin soon. Personally I don’t see the point in the Arkansas setup or the real world application to it, but I’m not opposed to it nor do I want to see the feds regulate it out of existence. Both sides of the aisle hate ag flying, it’s rare to find anyone lift a finger in support of the industry. Don’t let STOL competitions end up the same way.

I agree with Tom Ford. I also miss the E. Tenn fly-in, which was forever cancelled from a takeoff and climb as steep as possible maneuver...

Here is a video of the course:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glV1LsKNXmc

In twenty years of STOL demos (we don't call it a competition since there ain't no prize) at New Holstein we have not had an accident, and any minor incidents we have had have not required repairs - except to Randy's STOL line flags which people seem to like to take with them around the pattern. I'm super proud of this record and all of the people who have worked diligently to keep that event safe for competitors and the adoring crowd. It is one of the highlights of the New Holstein event.

I believe traditional STOL competitions can be executed with relative safety. Gulkana, Valdez, National STOL and a host of others have proven this over the years. I hope these will continue and at a minimum, it gets folks out to sharpen their skills even if they don't attend the event.

What the editorial that is the basis of this discussion fails to mention, is that there were more than a dozen accidents that I know of - some serious - just doing "everyday" backcountry flying in the Idaho, Utah, and Montana backcountry this summer. What was the ratio of accidents per airplanes / flight hours in those backcountry regions vs the competitions? I don't know, but it is interesting to consider.

sj

STOL and racing combined into one. Not the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of but it’s on the spectrum.

behindpropellers said:

I agree with Tom Ford. I also miss the E. Tenn fly-in, which was forever cancelled from a takeoff and climb as steep as possible maneuver...

Here is a video of the course:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glV1LsKNXmc

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I have to admit I got the heebies watching that.

CenterHillAg said:

I fly ag for a living, and you should see the way most people freak out when I tell them that. They think we’re drunk cowboys that crash airplanes daily and coat the schoolyard with poisons, the industry has been a pretty clean one for 30-40 years but that’s still the public perception. Most airports don’t want us to run off them, and I’ve had every creed, color, and religion file complaints with various government agencies on me. The wires, trees, and other obstacles don’t bother me, but a stranger videoing me or making a call keeps me up at night.

STOL competitions will end up with the same perception if some serious self policing doesn’t begin soon. Personally I don’t see the point in the Arkansas setup or the real world application to it, but I’m not opposed to it nor do I want to see the feds regulate it out of existence. Both sides of the aisle hate ag flying, it’s rare to find anyone lift a finger in support of the industry. Don’t let STOL competitions end up the same way.

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This highlights "Perception" vs "Reality", as it applies to aviation endeavors. Most of the STOL stuff I've seen or been around over the years (and I first attended what you guys call "Valdez" when it was held at Gulkana.) is generally pretty gentle stuff. That timed event at Arkanstol, maybe not so much. Same goes, maybe, for the STOL Drag concept.

I have a bit of experience in the back country, and going fast is the last thing I want when I'm working what I call a "Technical LZ". Quite the opposite, I want to take my time, and make sure I understand all the hazards and precisely how I'm going to land there....or not. So, a timed flying event has little relationship to back country flying in my opinion. And, most "conventional" STOL events really don't replicate true back country flying very closely either. And, that's absolutely alright! I don't think you have to justify these events other than to say they're fun for spectators and for participants.

I have no beef with the regular STOL events. And, STOL Drags....meh....I can't get excited about them, but if folks like them (and lots apparently do), so be it.

But, the original Arkanstol "course" looked to me like an accident waiting to happen. Unfortunately, that turned out to be true. Not to "dumb down" that course/trial, but I'm sure it could be made a LITTLE safer. And, as others have said, if the current rate of accidents continues, somebody will probably step in, and none of us will benefit from that.

But, back to "Perceptions" as CenterHillAg mentioned: Someone stuffs their propeller into the dirt, and it's on video and thus instantly available world wide. Next day, same plane is participating again.

Reality: Family member dispatched a jet to pick up a spare engine and mechanic, engine was changed overnight....NO sudden stoppage inspection required.

Perception: Most folks who viewed that first video, then sees the same plane flying the next day knows it's unlikely to complete a sudden stoppage inspection overnight.....so, this guy's an outlaw.

But, he's not, at least in this case. Now, I realize we can't always control people's perceptions, but perceptions, as CenterHillAg pointed out, can become our worst enemies.

Want another example? I flew airplanes for a government agency in Alaska. Automatically, many pilots assume we flew uncertificated airplanes, flew over gross weight, never inspected our planes, and basically did everything that would be against the regulations were it not for the "Public Aircraft" rules.

Well, we did have one uncertificated airplane. It's hanging in the Anchorage Airport Terminal now. That plane flew a lot of hours safely and with no problems. There was a time when we were authorized to fly certain aircraft at higher than certificated gross weights.

But, most if not all of that came to a screeching halt, partially because the Public Aircraft rule changed substantially, and partially because we tried to become a more "professional" flying outfit.

But, those Perceptions are still out there. And, it's next to impossible to convince pilots today that the organization has essentially become a Part 135 operation, at least as far as the airplanes are concerned.

Perceptions are important. I don't totally agree with Roy's assessment. That said, I know and respect him, and his point of view. He has a very nice PA-11 as well, and does in fact fly the back country. I do think he has some valid points.

MTV

Before Pierce and I start recounting all of our near deaths, harrowing experiences again from ArkanSTOL;-), let me remind everybody……a stock wing 175 and at least two 172s have ran the ENTIRE course safely multiple times. Multiple meaning a 100 or better I’m betting. If that doesn’t sound reckless enough, one of the 172s is an O300 powered hotrod that placed in this yrs competition. Yes it did have a Sportsman cuff on it which turned it basically into a Helio Courier. The last O300 continental powered 172 I flew I found myself throwing pocket change out the window thinking it would lighten the load enough to break ground.

Maybe I’m wrong but anytime an above average piloted 172/175 can consistently complete a “backcountry” course safely over and over again it probably isn’t the man (or woman) eater people make it out to be.

This is from experience flying the course. If anybody else that has ACTUALLY flown the course wants to disagree, feel free!

I hate it anytime someone gets hurt aviating or metal gets bent but stop trying to pass the blame on to everything but themselves.

I watched the videos and wondered why a STOL contest wouldn't reward the slowest entry for a given course? Isn't that the point of STOL - controllable slow flight? I know that's not the idea here.

Gary

Because the “winners” wouldn’t win?

stol course of a different breed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9E1GnGx2uM

I keep seeing people refer to that place as a 'backcountry' strip. It is not. It is a grass strip, with multiple runways, supporting buildings and close neighbors.

Sorry, but that is not a STOL contest, it is a race using runways short enough that one wants to monitor their loads.

Get in a hurry flying in the real backcountry and you will break things.

Enjoy it for what it is, a race going to the one with the lowest time. That means the one that shaves the most seconds by flying lower, turning tighter, extending landings longer and pushing brakes harder prior to spinning around as fast as you can.

It would be fun to do with a group of guys that don't want to bend metal, or if I had a sponsor telling me to win or break it- we have another plane for you ready to go.

Glad Gulkana was mentioned above, the beginnings...

I wonder why they don't require any body/head protection? Low, steep turns close to ground, trees and wires- what could possibly go wrong?

I watched the course description vid too, and I’m not sure what I expected, but it doesn’t look like anything intrinsically dangerous, unless the pilot chooses to fly it in a dangerous manner, which can be said for most flying. I don’t get the appeal of this event, and I don’t even know what it is, but it’s not STOL, at least as I know it. This whole scene is quickly devolving into something I don’t have any desire to be associated with...

aktango58 said:

I wonder why they don't require any body/head protection?

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They do.

I fly gravel bars weekly on an ever changing river that can go from 3 feet to 30 feet in a matter of hours and ever changing the landscape. It is a challenge and I have found fellow pilots that enjoy that challenge. We all have learned things over the years and share that knowledge. Maybe it is that you need to overfly the new spot from at least two directions to see the terrain in different light so you can see the moguls or that you don't land this one when the wind is from this direction because of the burble over the trees right there or avoid this spot after rain because it can be soft etc. etc. I am constantly honing my skills. Just flying the airplane weekly in different temperatures, pressures, wind conditions and loads gives me more feel and knowledge of my airplane and skills. Going into a short strip I want to be slow, use a stabilized approach, be able to see, hit my spot, go around if I can't hit within a certain spot etc. These same skills are used in a conventional STOL contest as they are at ArkanSTOL. Everybody has opinions and that is fine, I do to and I have flown the course. Do STOL contest raise your insurance rates, if they do I bet they will get excluded. I bet the alarming amount of accidents by unskilled pilots tearing up their airplanes off airport and low time pilots pulling the parachute on their Cirrus has a bigger effect. Recent events and social media banter make our Sunday morning meetings on the river that much better because we are free to do what our skill and equipment will allow us to do without those who do not do it or approve to see. I will also say this, if someone shows up without the skills to land on the training bars (600-800 feet) they are not invited to the more challenging spots and if they think they have skills they don't and they are an accident waiting to happen they get told just that. It is not always easy but I would rather have them be mad at me for trying to help them than having to pick them up out of the river or worse yet them getting hurt. I have tried to make several points here and I am sure people will disagree with me on some of those points but they are my opinions from my experiences flying this sort of stuff for the past 20 plus years. Right, wrong or indifferent they are just my opinions.