Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 52

Thread: Anti-STOL Article on AVweb

  1. #1
    CubCruiser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Apollo Beach, FLA www.KidsFlyCubs.org
    Posts
    189
    Post Thanks / Like

    Anti-STOL Article on AVweb

    Daryl Hickman, ATP, CFI, XYZ, PDQ
    N452SP American Legend Cub
    http://www.CubFlying.com
    http://www.KidsFlyCubs.org

  2. #2
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    21,296
    Post Thanks / Like
    If he wants to be taken seriously he should get his facts correct first. Obvious he is ignorant to many other things to do with this event.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
    Thanks EdH, Jim Hann thanked for this post
    Likes 39-J3, NoFlaps, CWilson liked this post

  3. #3
    courierguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Inkom, Idaho
    Posts
    1,992
    Post Thanks / Like
    "In Arkansas, in my estimation, they’re doing stuff with airplanes that has no real-world application unless we’re searching for creative ways to raise insurance rates."

    In HIS estimation......that says it all, not a real off airport pilot, and I don't care if he is the prez of the back country Utah
    organization. Get him off a 2,000' long dirt strip that's on a sectional, that he probably thinks is demanding, and point him at a 8500' ridge that no one has ever landed before, or a tight gravel bar, also a virgin, and let's see how he does. Bet he'd wish he had the skills needed to safely fly the course.
    Likes NoFlaps, alaskadrifter, Jim Hann liked this post

  4. #4
    Willie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Kerrville, Texas
    Posts
    123
    Post Thanks / Like
    Steve Pierce's Will Rogers quote on the signature pretty much says it all - - - - -
    Likes courierguy, Stankasica, Jim Hann liked this post

  5. #5
    aeroaddict's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Boise ID area
    Posts
    213
    Post Thanks / Like
    Real journalism is dead.
    Likes royevansii, CharlieN, alaskadrifter liked this post

  6. #6
    SJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Northwest Arkansas
    Posts
    15,609
    Post Thanks / Like
    Remember, this is an editorial not to be confused with news or journalism. Editorial / opinion pieces have been a part of newspapers / magazines forever - and are rarely based on facts.

    Bertorelli has opinion pieces in Avweb almost every week.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
    Thanks mixer, tedwaltman1 thanked for this post

  7. #7
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    11,739
    Post Thanks / Like
    Yes, and welcome to Facebook for Super Cub.....I used to think we could have an "intelligent" discussion on this forum.....maybe not so much.

    MTV
    Thanks tedwaltman1 thanked for this post

  8. #8
    Utah-Jay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Heber City, UT
    Posts
    350
    Post Thanks / Like
    I like Roy, but I disagree with his article. No doubt the pilots who choose to fly ArkanSTOL understand the risks, and they have chosen to match their skills against the challenge. I see nothing wrong with that. If you bend the prop on your plane so be it, you made the decision to compete.

    I am no fan of someone telling me I can’t/shouldn’t do something that is legal.

    I like watching the STOL contests of whatever type they may be, I think we have all benefitted from equipment design derived from competition.

    Having flown a fair amount in Utah, and a bit in Idaho, I can emphatically say Utah backcountry is nothing like the demands of Idaho. For the most part Utah is pretty wide open with some bumpy or humpy strips at times. I can see how there is practical use of the skills at ArkanSTOL in Idaho and likely Alaska (I have only been a passenger in Alaska and it was tight quarters) too.

    Having more skills than you need for real world practical purposes is NEVER a bad thing.

    As for the Trent Palmer reference in the article, Trent recently said in a YouTube video his insurance currently precludes him from races/STOL events.

  9. #9
    stewartb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Wolf Lake, AK
    Posts
    6,557
    Post Thanks / Like
    I'd wager the majority of aircraft owners and operators agree with the article.
    Likes WindOnHisNose, akavidflyer liked this post

  10. #10
    flagold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Abbeville, Alabama
    Posts
    471
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    Having more skills than you need for real world practical purposes is NEVER a bad thing.
    Of course this is true, but attaining those skills exposes one to dangers others will never accept nor agree is acceptable for anyone. It is simply a fact of life. If the "everyman" is to fly - all danger has to be removed to the point flying is pointless for some. If you're in a SuperCub, you're probably in the later category, and as such far outnumbered by the straight, level, aircraft is only point A to B crowd.

    It hasn't been that long ago (maybe it has: 20 years) - they had the CAP kids out looking for "non standard" (TW airplanes) airplanes and pilots. I ended up on a list in Florida.

    As for "competition" itself, I have much admiration for Pierce. It takes special skill to fly a beater SuperCub well, and to the point you beat the gadget crowd - and he did. The fact that he displayed skill though, makes him and everyone similar a target by the straight and level (narrow) crowd. The "competition" in question is something quite different though.

    "stewartb
    I'd wager the majority of aircraft owners and operators agree with the article."

    Undoubtedly.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Flying.001.jpeg 
Views:	100 
Size:	373.0 KB 
ID:	57862  
    Last edited by flagold; 10-12-2021 at 06:52 AM.
    Likes courierguy liked this post

  11. #11
    sjohnson's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Boise, ID
    Posts
    788
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I'd wager the majority of aircraft owners and operators agree with the article.
    I agree with Stewart.

    In other STOL events, the racing is limited to an arena. In ArkanSTOL, it appears that the racing proceeds over land accessible to the general public, which raises public awareness, regardless of the actual risk to the public.

    There are a lot of parallels between STOL Drags and stock car racing (NASCAR), evolving from genuine backcountry performance needs (e.g. bootlegging) into formalized events. The auto racing industry has gone through multiple rounds of introspection, balancing safety of the participants and spectators vs. the thrill of racing, and they're still ongoing (see https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/30/m...ntl/index.html )

    In marketing, "perception is reality". If Evans and authors like him have tapped into or is influencing public perception, regardless if he gets the facts somewhat wrong, there will eventually be a public intervention, and the controversy will likely bleed into general backcountry flying. STOL racing has become an industry with a considerable public profile - after all, this event was sponsored by Aviat.

    I don't participate in STOL Drags, but I do a lot of backcountry, off-airport landings for pleasure. I'd like to see the STOL industry handle this early, before it blows up on all of us.
    Last edited by sjohnson; 10-11-2021 at 06:22 PM. Reason: typo
    There are three simple rules for making consistently smooth landings. Unfortunately no one knows what they are.
    Thanks utahbackcountry, tedwaltman1 thanked for this post

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Platinum
    Posts
    305
    Post Thanks / Like
    I read through about half of it before abandoning the effort to understand someone who is an obstructionist. His opinion trumps anyone who favors STOL activities or opposes his final determination. It feels like half the country is okay with stomping on freedom and the remaining half has to suck it up and do as they’re told.
    A couple days ago I changed my verbiage when folks call wanting to know what are the Covid travel restrictions or mandates for the City of Platinum.. No more will I waste my breath explaining my mandates are not mandates, they’re asks. I haven’t nor will I violate an individuals rights. Now I just say... the only mandate in place is “common sense”. Do I need to explain that to you?

    Guess I’m just sick and tired of these experts sticking their noses in everyone’s business.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
    Thanks KevinJ, JeffP thanked for this post
    Likes AKaaron, CWilson, BTV, alaskadrifter liked this post

  13. #13
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,531
    Post Thanks / Like
    Unfortunately it is apparent that for the majority of people that enter arkanstol don't have the skills required to safely compete. If you let them to continue to crash, the neighbors and FAA will get involved and close down the airport in the usual over reaction fashion, and we will loose another cool spot to fly. What's the answer? Keeping people safe from themselves? A more stringent qualifying? The whole stol movement has such momentum that it is in the limelight, good or bad. I've been saying for awhile these youtube warriors need to hold themselves to a higher level of professionalism due to there big impact on GA and people in general. Accidents at stol events hurt all of us who enjoy this kind of off airport flying. I'm not one to support banning something to save someone who is too ignorant to know they can get hurt, but I feel like this is threading a fine line of loosing what we love to do. You can't tell me this doesn't effect our insurance rates? The Red Scout from last year was a total loss and was on the insurance salvage site.
    Thanks JeffP thanked for this post

  14. #14
    RVBottomly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
    Posts
    1,252
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    You can't tell me this doesn't effect our insurance rates? The Red Scout from last year was a total loss and was on the insurance salvage site.
    That may be why my policy, which is only a year and a half old, has a "no racing or practicing for races" exclusion while MTV's older policy does not. Same company.
    Thanks JeffP thanked for this post
    Likes RaisedByWolves, Brandsman liked this post

  15. #15

    Join Date
    May 2021
    Location
    Arizona, USA
    Posts
    307
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    Bet he'd wish he had the skills needed to safely fly the course.
    I watched the Arkan STOL course description/demonstration video and have no doubt at all that I could fly that course in my FX-3. However, I would not attempt to race that course trying to do anything it took to save a few seconds off my time.

    Very few real world STOL skills have anything to do with speed and the article was not, in my opinion, Anti-STOL.
    Likes stewartb, tedwaltman1, alaskaoe liked this post

  16. #16

    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    9
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Unfortunately it is apparent that for the majority of people that enter arkanstol don't have the skills required to safely compete. If you let them to continue to crash, the neighbors and FAA will get involved and close down the airport in the usual over reaction fashion, and we will loose another cool spot to fly. What's the answer? Keeping people safe from themselves? A more stringent qualifying? The whole stol movement has such momentum that it is in the limelight, good or bad. I've been saying for awhile these youtube warriors need to hold themselves to a higher level of professionalism due to there big impact on GA and people in general. Accidents at stol events hurt all of us who enjoy this kind of off airport flying. I'm not one to support banning something to save someone who is too ignorant to know they can get hurt, but I feel like this is threading a fine line of loosing what we love to do. You can't tell me this doesn't effect our insurance rates? The Red Scout from last year was a total loss and was on the insurance salvage site.
    You couldn't have said it better. I think this was the point Roy was trying to make in the opinion piece. I think this is the reason why we dont see the RAF sponsoring such events. But you're right at the end of the day no one is telling anyone to not take risks, but when their risks effect all our flying then there needs to be line drawn.
    Likes utahbackcountry, tedwaltman1 liked this post

  17. #17
    CenterHillAg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Texas Coast
    Posts
    141
    Post Thanks / Like
    I fly ag for a living, and you should see the way most people freak out when I tell them that. They think we’re drunk cowboys that crash airplanes daily and coat the schoolyard with poisons, the industry has been a pretty clean one for 30-40 years but that’s still the public perception. Most airports don’t want us to run off them, and I’ve had every creed, color, and religion file complaints with various government agencies on me. The wires, trees, and other obstacles don’t bother me, but a stranger videoing me or making a call keeps me up at night.

    STOL competitions will end up with the same perception if some serious self policing doesn’t begin soon. Personally I don’t see the point in the Arkansas setup or the real world application to it, but I’m not opposed to it nor do I want to see the feds regulate it out of existence. Both sides of the aisle hate ag flying, it’s rare to find anyone lift a finger in support of the industry. Don’t let STOL competitions end up the same way.

  18. #18
    behindpropellers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Posts
    6,952
    Post Thanks / Like
    I agree with Tom Ford. I also miss the E. Tenn fly-in, which was forever cancelled from a takeoff and climb as steep as possible maneuver...

    Here is a video of the course:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glV1LsKNXmc
    Likes Steve-N1964S liked this post

  19. #19
    SJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Northwest Arkansas
    Posts
    15,609
    Post Thanks / Like
    In twenty years of STOL demos (we don't call it a competition since there ain't no prize) at New Holstein we have not had an accident, and any minor incidents we have had have not required repairs - except to Randy's STOL line flags which people seem to like to take with them around the pattern. I'm super proud of this record and all of the people who have worked diligently to keep that event safe for competitors and the adoring crowd. It is one of the highlights of the New Holstein event.

    I believe traditional STOL competitions can be executed with relative safety. Gulkana, Valdez, National STOL and a host of others have proven this over the years. I hope these will continue and at a minimum, it gets folks out to sharpen their skills even if they don't attend the event.

    What the editorial that is the basis of this discussion fails to mention, is that there were more than a dozen accidents that I know of - some serious - just doing "everyday" backcountry flying in the Idaho, Utah, and Montana backcountry this summer. What was the ratio of accidents per airplanes / flight hours in those backcountry regions vs the competitions? I don't know, but it is interesting to consider.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
    Likes dustinjames, WindOnHisNose, Brandsman liked this post

  20. #20
    stewartb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Wolf Lake, AK
    Posts
    6,557
    Post Thanks / Like
    STOL and racing combined into one. Not the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of but it’s on the spectrum.

  21. #21
    RVBottomly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
    Posts
    1,252
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by behindpropellers View Post
    I agree with Tom Ford. I also miss the E. Tenn fly-in, which was forever cancelled from a takeoff and climb as steep as possible maneuver...

    Here is a video of the course:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glV1LsKNXmc
    I have to admit I got the heebies watching that.

  22. #22
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    11,739
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by CenterHillAg View Post
    I fly ag for a living, and you should see the way most people freak out when I tell them that. They think we’re drunk cowboys that crash airplanes daily and coat the schoolyard with poisons, the industry has been a pretty clean one for 30-40 years but that’s still the public perception. Most airports don’t want us to run off them, and I’ve had every creed, color, and religion file complaints with various government agencies on me. The wires, trees, and other obstacles don’t bother me, but a stranger videoing me or making a call keeps me up at night.

    STOL competitions will end up with the same perception if some serious self policing doesn’t begin soon. Personally I don’t see the point in the Arkansas setup or the real world application to it, but I’m not opposed to it nor do I want to see the feds regulate it out of existence. Both sides of the aisle hate ag flying, it’s rare to find anyone lift a finger in support of the industry. Don’t let STOL competitions end up the same way.

    This highlights "Perception" vs "Reality", as it applies to aviation endeavors. Most of the STOL stuff I've seen or been around over the years (and I first attended what you guys call "Valdez" when it was held at Gulkana.) is generally pretty gentle stuff. That timed event at Arkanstol, maybe not so much. Same goes, maybe, for the STOL Drag concept.

    I have a bit of experience in the back country, and going fast is the last thing I want when I'm working what I call a "Technical LZ". Quite the opposite, I want to take my time, and make sure I understand all the hazards and precisely how I'm going to land there....or not. So, a timed flying event has little relationship to back country flying in my opinion. And, most "conventional" STOL events really don't replicate true back country flying very closely either. And, that's absolutely alright! I don't think you have to justify these events other than to say they're fun for spectators and for participants.

    I have no beef with the regular STOL events. And, STOL Drags....meh....I can't get excited about them, but if folks like them (and lots apparently do), so be it.

    But, the original Arkanstol "course" looked to me like an accident waiting to happen. Unfortunately, that turned out to be true. Not to "dumb down" that course/trial, but I'm sure it could be made a LITTLE safer. And, as others have said, if the current rate of accidents continues, somebody will probably step in, and none of us will benefit from that.

    But, back to "Perceptions" as CenterHillAg mentioned: Someone stuffs their propeller into the dirt, and it's on video and thus instantly available world wide. Next day, same plane is participating again.

    Reality: Family member dispatched a jet to pick up a spare engine and mechanic, engine was changed overnight....NO sudden stoppage inspection required.

    Perception: Most folks who viewed that first video, then sees the same plane flying the next day knows it's unlikely to complete a sudden stoppage inspection overnight.....so, this guy's an outlaw.

    But, he's not, at least in this case. Now, I realize we can't always control people's perceptions, but perceptions, as CenterHillAg pointed out, can become our worst enemies.

    Want another example? I flew airplanes for a government agency in Alaska. Automatically, many pilots assume we flew uncertificated airplanes, flew over gross weight, never inspected our planes, and basically did everything that would be against the regulations were it not for the "Public Aircraft" rules.

    Well, we did have one uncertificated airplane. It's hanging in the Anchorage Airport Terminal now. That plane flew a lot of hours safely and with no problems. There was a time when we were authorized to fly certain aircraft at higher than certificated gross weights.

    But, most if not all of that came to a screeching halt, partially because the Public Aircraft rule changed substantially, and partially because we tried to become a more "professional" flying outfit.

    But, those Perceptions are still out there. And, it's next to impossible to convince pilots today that the organization has essentially become a Part 135 operation, at least as far as the airplanes are concerned.

    Perceptions are important. I don't totally agree with Roy's assessment. That said, I know and respect him, and his point of view. He has a very nice PA-11 as well, and does in fact fly the back country. I do think he has some valid points.

    MTV
    Thanks HalfTonChamp, royevansii, tedwaltman1 thanked for this post
    Likes dustinjames, RaisedByWolves, FdxLou liked this post

  23. #23

    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Canyon, tx
    Posts
    881
    Post Thanks / Like
    Before Pierce and I start recounting all of our near deaths, harrowing experiences again from ArkanSTOL, let me remind everybody……a stock wing 175 and at least two 172s have ran the ENTIRE course safely multiple times. Multiple meaning a 100 or better I’m betting. If that doesn’t sound reckless enough, one of the 172s is an O300 powered hotrod that placed in this yrs competition. Yes it did have a Sportsman cuff on it which turned it basically into a Helio Courier. The last O300 continental powered 172 I flew I found myself throwing pocket change out the window thinking it would lighten the load enough to break ground.

    Maybe I’m wrong but anytime an above average piloted 172/175 can consistently complete a “backcountry” course safely over and over again it probably isn’t the man (or woman) eater people make it out to be.

    This is from experience flying the course. If anybody else that has ACTUALLY flown the course wants to disagree, feel free!

    I hate it anytime someone gets hurt aviating or metal gets bent but stop trying to pass the blame on to everything but themselves.
    Last edited by KevinJ; 10-11-2021 at 09:48 PM.
    Thanks Steve Pierce, FdxLou thanked for this post

  24. #24
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    3,097
    Post Thanks / Like
    I watched the videos and wondered why a STOL contest wouldn't reward the slowest entry for a given course? Isn't that the point of STOL - controllable slow flight? I know that's not the idea here.

    Gary

  25. #25
    stewartb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Wolf Lake, AK
    Posts
    6,557
    Post Thanks / Like
    Because the “winners” wouldn’t win?
    Likes mixer liked this post

  26. #26

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    nd
    Posts
    3,730
    Post Thanks / Like
    stol course of a different breed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9E1GnGx2uM

  27. #27
    aktango58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    18AA
    Posts
    9,643
    Post Thanks / Like
    I keep seeing people refer to that place as a 'backcountry' strip. It is not. It is a grass strip, with multiple runways, supporting buildings and close neighbors.

    Sorry, but that is not a STOL contest, it is a race using runways short enough that one wants to monitor their loads.

    Get in a hurry flying in the real backcountry and you will break things.

    Enjoy it for what it is, a race going to the one with the lowest time. That means the one that shaves the most seconds by flying lower, turning tighter, extending landings longer and pushing brakes harder prior to spinning around as fast as you can.

    It would be fun to do with a group of guys that don't want to bend metal, or if I had a sponsor telling me to win or break it- we have another plane for you ready to go.

    Glad Gulkana was mentioned above, the beginnings...

    I wonder why they don't require any body/head protection? Low, steep turns close to ground, trees and wires- what could possibly go wrong?
    Last edited by aktango58; 10-12-2021 at 12:19 AM.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  28. #28

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    AK
    Posts
    227
    Post Thanks / Like
    I watched the course description vid too, and I’m not sure what I expected, but it doesn’t look like anything intrinsically dangerous, unless the pilot chooses to fly it in a dangerous manner, which can be said for most flying. I don’t get the appeal of this event, and I don’t even know what it is, but it’s not STOL, at least as I know it. This whole scene is quickly devolving into something I don’t have any desire to be associated with...

  29. #29
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    21,296
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    I wonder why they don't require any body/head protection?
    They do.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
    Likes alaskadrifter, Jim Hann liked this post

  30. #30
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    21,296
    Post Thanks / Like
    I fly gravel bars weekly on an ever changing river that can go from 3 feet to 30 feet in a matter of hours and ever changing the landscape. It is a challenge and I have found fellow pilots that enjoy that challenge. We all have learned things over the years and share that knowledge. Maybe it is that you need to overfly the new spot from at least two directions to see the terrain in different light so you can see the moguls or that you don't land this one when the wind is from this direction because of the burble over the trees right there or avoid this spot after rain because it can be soft etc. etc. I am constantly honing my skills. Just flying the airplane weekly in different temperatures, pressures, wind conditions and loads gives me more feel and knowledge of my airplane and skills. Going into a short strip I want to be slow, use a stabilized approach, be able to see, hit my spot, go around if I can't hit within a certain spot etc. These same skills are used in a conventional STOL contest as they are at ArkanSTOL. Everybody has opinions and that is fine, I do to and I have flown the course. Do STOL contest raise your insurance rates, if they do I bet they will get excluded. I bet the alarming amount of accidents by unskilled pilots tearing up their airplanes off airport and low time pilots pulling the parachute on their Cirrus has a bigger effect. Recent events and social media banter make our Sunday morning meetings on the river that much better because we are free to do what our skill and equipment will allow us to do without those who do not do it or approve to see. I will also say this, if someone shows up without the skills to land on the training bars (600-800 feet) they are not invited to the more challenging spots and if they think they have skills they don't and they are an accident waiting to happen they get told just that. It is not always easy but I would rather have them be mad at me for trying to help them than having to pick them up out of the river or worse yet them getting hurt. I have tried to make several points here and I am sure people will disagree with me on some of those points but they are my opinions from my experiences flying this sort of stuff for the past 20 plus years. Right, wrong or indifferent they are just my opinions.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  31. #31
    flagold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Abbeville, Alabama
    Posts
    471
    Post Thanks / Like
    Originally Posted by CenterHillAg
    I fly ag for a living, and you should see the way most people freak out when I tell them that. They think we’re drunk cowboys that crash airplanes daily and coat the schoolyard with poisons, the industry has been a pretty clean one for 30-40 years but that’s still the public perception. Most airports don’t want us to run off them, and I’ve had every creed, color, and religion file complaints with various government agencies on me. The wires, trees, and other obstacles don’t bother me, but a stranger videoing me or making a call keeps me up at night.

    STOL competitions will end up with the same perception if some serious self policing doesn’t begin soon. Personally I don’t see the point in the Arkansas setup or the real world application to it, but I’m not opposed to it nor do I want to see the feds regulate it out of existence. Both sides of the aisle hate ag flying, it’s rare to find anyone lift a finger in support of the industry. Don’t let STOL competitions end up the same way."



    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Perceptions are important. I don't totally agree with Roy's assessment. That said, I know and respect him, and his point of view. He has a very nice PA-11 as well, and does in fact fly the back country. I do think he has some valid points.

    MTV
    I'm sure he's a good man and everyone is entitled to their opinion and yes, he did make some points. After looking more into this I amended my comment above about Pierce and his competition specifically. That was a whole different deal than this (after being out of flying I don't keep up well). If the ag-pilots here got together and made a team spraying (yes that was done) competition where each team was required to have a minimum of 3 airplanes in the field at one time, with a minimum of 10 laps with the winning time being the sole factor - I'm quite sure it would generate another article - because it would have no real world application at all, it's simply a dreamed up competition for no other reason than to compete.

    It gets complicated when perception and regulation impedes on the real world activity.

  32. #32
    courierguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Inkom, Idaho
    Posts
    1,992
    Post Thanks / Like
    The criticism of the event illustrates the gap between "back country" flying, strips you can google, likely on a sectional, for sure on YouTube and real "off airport" flying. Two different things to my mind, though they always get lumped together. The skill set needed for the second is similar but a bit different then the former, a point that Roy fails to comprehend. It's why he doesn't get the way the course is set up. I'm not saying it's all good, and maybe should be adjusted a bit, just getting into the heads of the organizers and their original intent.
    Likes 1934A liked this post

  33. #33
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    11,739
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    The criticism of the event illustrates the gap between "back country" flying, strips you can google, likely on a sectional, for sure on YouTube and real "off airport" flying. Two different things to my mind, though they always get lumped together. The skill set needed for the second is similar but a bit different then the former, a point that Roy fails to comprehend. It's why he doesn't get the way the course is set up. I'm not saying it's all good, and maybe should be adjusted a bit, just getting into the heads of the organizers and their original intent.
    How is having four airstrips (and they ARE airstrips, NOT off airport sites) close together somehow represent "Off airport" in any way?

    Again, I think comparing any of these events to "real life" flying is a fool's errand. Yes, there are skills that transfer, but jumping around from one immaculately groomed grass runway to another somehow represents off airport flying? I haven't flown that course, so maybe it does, but I have my doubts.

    That said, as I noted earlier, why does anyone feel like they have to "Justify" these events as anything but competition type events? Obviously, ANY flying that requires improvement of skills is useful in back country flying, be it to airports or off airport.

    I think what will "manage" all these events ultimately is liability. That's what killed Gulkana back in the day....the Lions Club ran it, and they were unable to get event insurance, or the cost was too high.

    Kevin Quinn and company ran smack into this when they applied to Reno Air Racing to join that event with the STOL Drag. And, good for them, they went through the hoops to become sanctioned by that organization, which has very high standards of safety. What that meant was you don't just show up and race....you have to meet certain standards.

    That'll likely happen elsewhere. I guarantee that three accidents, even fender benders, in a week of an event is going to get the attention of an insurance underwriter. And, if the event isn't insured....one law suit will take care of that.

    Unfortunately, liability is what drives these kinds of events to be better and safer. Not perfectly safe, mind you, but safer....

    MTV

  34. #34

    Join Date
    May 2021
    Location
    Arizona, USA
    Posts
    307
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    How is having four airstrips (and they ARE airstrips, NOT off airport sites) close together somehow represent "Off airport" in any way?

    If there was one public use un-paved airstrip in Arizona that looked half as good as any of those on the course I'd be going there almost every week. I haven't operated on a grass strip for over 30 years. I don't count the landing on a golf course fairway. (One of the nicest places I ever landed but some of the locals were not too pleased to see me).

  35. #35
    courierguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Inkom, Idaho
    Posts
    1,992
    Post Thanks / Like
    The close manuvering, cranking and banking at low elevation, is what made me compare it to more of a tight off airport op than turning base at Sulpher Creek, as a for instance. It all has no interest to me, I also am not going to the High Sierra event. Went the first year, beat Pops D by a few tenths of a second, quitting while I'm ahead!

  36. #36
    flagold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Abbeville, Alabama
    Posts
    471
    Post Thanks / Like
    Not aimed at anyone in particular!!!! I've read a few times about banking at low altitude . . .

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	B-17LLL.jpeg 
Views:	62 
Size:	61.5 KB 
ID:	57867

    An excellent way to get killed. If you fellows (and lady) truly want to learn to fly low - that is a specialized skill that requires training. A certified course taught by certificated people that know what they're teaching and are not afraid at all to wash you out of the program if you're not meeting the marks safely. No nonsense military or military style (oddly by people that were in the military) training.

    People who fly low, have learned to "fly the baseball":

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	GroundEffect.004.jpeg 
Views:	58 
Size:	52.7 KB 
ID:	57868

    Within 1 wingspan (or lower but never higher) of the terrain, as these fellows are learning to do:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	B25BR.jpg 
Views:	54 
Size:	43.0 KB 
ID:	57869

    They do this at speed, not to look good or for any other reason than building a cushion of air ahead of the main spar:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	GroundEffect.003.jpeg 
Views:	56 
Size:	44.6 KB 
ID:	57870
    As opposed to the ground effect we are first introduced to in soft field takeoffs:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	GroundEffect.005.jpeg 
Views:	58 
Size:	47.1 KB 
ID:	57871
    The "baseball" can clearly be seen in this old photo of me spraying a peanut field:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Baseball.002.jpg 
Views:	45 
Size:	522.9 KB 
ID:	57874

    I hope the above doesn't come off a condescending, a lot of you have many hours and much experience - but true low level flying is not competition or about competition: it is a hard earned and hard taught skill.
    Last edited by flagold; 10-12-2021 at 06:20 PM.
    Thanks Jim Hann thanked for this post
    Likes gbflyer liked this post

  37. #37
    LisaWi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2021
    Location
    Between Lake of the Woods and Lake Huron
    Posts
    16
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by aeroaddict View Post
    Real journalism is dead.
    +1

  38. #38
    acroeric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Burlington, NC
    Posts
    125
    Post Thanks / Like
    About the only part of this that has any meat in it at all is if they fly over houses or crowds during the competition. IMHO any attempt at trying to protect people from themselves is going to be problematic. That's the nature of the free country we live in. One persons "dangerous" is another person's "routine". I damn sure do not want someone else making that correlation for me.

    If you are not harming others (potential or otherwise) then rock on. The airshow industry went through this many years ago. They got revised crowd control lines, scatter patterns etc. The Aerobatic Competency Evaluators (ACE) do a damn good job of making sure folks have the experience needed to perform at these venues. The IAC further does a great job at mentorship through the various levels of competition. One doesn't just start in Unlimited.

    At end of the day, if you can pass the requirements for entry then the rest is sorta up to you. The improvement most likely needed in this case is in the vetting of the participants and some logical crowd control procedures. I bet we will see changes in the future. It's a new event and they will have some growing pains.

    One huge benefit has been the innovation and boundary pushing we have seen in recent years. For that, we all benefit.
    Likes courierguy liked this post

  39. #39
    hotrod180's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    3,693
    Post Thanks / Like
    That writer has an opinion & IMHO he's entitled to express it.
    I see lots of people here criticizing the article, as well as it's author.
    Why don't one of you guys write a rebuttal and ask Avweb to publish it,
    instead of preaching to the choir here about how wrong he is.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  40. #40
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    21,296
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    That writer has an opinion & IMHO he's entitled to express it.
    I see lots of people here criticizing the article, as well as it's author.
    Why don't one of you guys write a rebuttal and ask Avweb to publish it,
    instead of preaching to the choir here about how wrong he is.
    There is a comment section under the article. I tried to leave a comment ment but can't log onto my AvWeb account. Doesn't recognize my email address although they email me several times es a week. I gave up. From the comments both there and here I rea.ize I am in the minority and after some reflection I understand that.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

Similar Threads

  1. avweb on LED's
    By Oliver in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 12-21-2015, 02:14 PM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-01-2015, 04:09 PM
  3. STOL Techniques-from an Article by Mike Vivion
    By PA12driver in forum The Art and Science of Flying
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 02-25-2003, 03:26 PM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •