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3 point landings on pavement?

3-point landings can be full stall, but not always. In the Decathlon, full stall is with the tailwheel on the ground and the mains a foot above the pavement. The post-stall portion will knock your fillings out. In the J3 full stall and 3-point happen at the same time.
 
Well, even though the winds at the top of arctic valley were 150 @ 30 gusting 50 mph, I went to birchwood airport in Chugiak to try out some pavement 3 pointers. A few little bumps at Eagle River. It went OK, although I think my first one was the best. It definitely seems to work the best if you can touch down in this airplane before the stall, I'm guessing around 45-50 mph before the pitch attitude gets too high. If you float and hold it off too long the pitch attitude gets just a bit too high and the tailwheel hits first. Cubs are probably nothing like this, and based on 5 hours in them, they definitely aren't like that on 35's. In those it seems like you can impale yourself with aft stick and still not touch tailwheel first unless you have an aft CG and/or slats.

 
Well, even though the winds at the top of arctic valley were 150 @ 30 gusting 50 mph, I went to birchwood airport in Chugiak to try out some pavement 3 pointers. A few little bumps at Eagle River. It went OK, although I think my first one was the best. It definitely seems to work the best if you can touch down in this airplane before the stall, I'm guessing around 45-50 mph before the pitch attitude gets too high. If you float and hold it off too long the pitch attitude gets just a bit too high and the tailwheel hits first. Cubs are probably nothing like this, and based on 5 hours in them, they definitely aren't like that on 35's. In those it seems like you can impale yourself with aft stick and still not touch tailwheel first unless you have an aft CG and/or slats.


Very nice approch/landings!! Don't be a a big hurry to land or take off short. Just develop good habits, get spin training, and give it a few hundred hours, you are doing fine. It is very easy to to a tail first landing on 35in Bushwheels with extended gear. I don't know what cub you have been flying but I suspect you have had a touchdown speed around 50 mph. If you slow a cub down to 38-40 mph your tail wheel will be well below the mains even with 35 in tires. If I sit up straight in my seat I have a rivet line on the cowl that I see over my GPS when I land tail first. Hide the line and it is a tailwheel low. DENNY
 
I fly mostly semi-stock Super Cubs with both VG options. I find that I can fully stall the aircraft in any flap configuration and follow that with a gentle 3-point touchdown. I need power in the flare to get the tailwheel to touch first. I can roll on the tailwheel for a hundred feet or so with power.
 
As a side note if you do fully stall the wing with the entire plane off the ground, the mains/wing will drop and pivot down from the tail, the tail will stay in the air until you put it down or speed slows. As Bob says you will notice it!!
DENNY
 
As a side note if you do fully stall the wing with the entire plane off the ground, the mains/wing will drop and pivot down from the tail, the tail will stay in the air until you put it down or speed slows. As Bob says you will notice it!!
DENNY

Long ago I was looking at a Citabria to buy. The owner took me up and we flew around some--putting it through a few paces.

He came back to the airport and lined up for the grass runway, which was good as I found out. His three point was really more of a carrier landing with the tail wheel hitting while the mains were a couple feet up. I felt like I needed a chiropractor after that.

He said he always landed that way....
 
I also don’t like to refer to a wheel landing as a “two point” landing. A two point landing is a tail wheel and one main wheel landing in a heavy crosswind.

sj
 
Well I could be wrong but I don't think it's possible to land my FX-3 3 point and full stall with full flaps. That wing likes to keep flying and I'm pretty sure full stall would be tail first. Depending on the aircraft, "full stall" and "3 point" may be mutually exclusive.
What is the AOA doing at touchdown. I usually 3 point the FX3 and it feels like a full stall to me. I haven't gotten proficient at dumping the flaps on the Cub Crafters proucts like I have on a Super Cub.
 
What is the AOA doing at touchdown. I usually 3 point the FX3 and it feels like a full stall to me. I haven't gotten proficient at dumping the flaps on the Cub Crafters proucts like I have on a Super Cub.

Yes, there are power OFF stalls, and then there are power ON stalls, which result in very different AOA and deck angle.

MTV
 
I'm curious as to why landing tailwheel first is apparently such a sin?
I've landed tailwheel first before, and as long as the wheels all touch down reasonably softly,
I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with it.
In fact, if the wing is still flying,
the angle of attack will be reduced when the mains come down & the wing will quit flying.
I remember reading a Maule M4 pirep in an airplane magazine years ago when the writer brought this up,
he said that Maule had a pretty flat attitude on the ground & so it was hard to avoid touching down t/w first--
apparently he wasn't a fan of wheel-landing.
 
I teach my Cub students to try for tailwheel first. That way they get a definite stall an instant before touchdown. Very smooth, with stick against the aft stop, power off.

Do that in a Decathlon and you will damage the main gear attach points.
 
I'm curious as to why landing tailwheel first is apparently such a sin?
I've landed tailwheel first before, and as long as the wheels all touch down reasonably softly,
I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with it.
In fact, if the wing is still flying,
the angle of attack will be reduced when the mains come down & the wing will quit flying.
I remember reading a Maule M4 pirep in an airplane magazine years ago when the writer brought this up,
he said that Maule had a pretty flat attitude on the ground & so it was hard to avoid touching down t/w first--
apparently he wasn't a fan of wheel-landing.
I don't see a big issue with it either, as long as the impact loads are kept low. I haven't studied the regulations as far as the tail wheel drops tests go for certification, I suspect they are minimal. The drop testing required for the main gear is something else. You would not want to see it done on your plane.

One thing to think about when you see a plane being dragged in with power, nose very high and the tail wheel being the first to hit the rough. Once the tail wheel is on the ground, the angle of attack decreases as the rest of the plane pivots on the tail wheel. When this happens the ability of the wing to support the plane rapidly is decreased effectively increasing the stall speed. Thus increasing the rate of descent and the impact loads on the main gear. Not a good idea particularly if you are landing on a rough off airport surface. Perhaps this is why the safety cables and a lot of broken main gears?

Personally, I like the tail wheel to touch perhaps an inch before the mains. If the tail wheel is higher than the mains it could initiate bouncing and PIO (pilot induced oscillations). I watched a PanAm 707 do this when it landed on the nose gear first, slamming the main gear down and then the nose gear ect. Hippity hop down the runway. It was a sight to see. There is an airline term for such an event "Take that runway!". When landing in the rough keep it slow with the tail wheel just above the mains (to protect the tail wheel). Tail wheels are rather flimsy.
 
Why risk damaging an airframe or gear by hitting a standard size tailwheel first...if there's other options? The last event I witnessed the pilot cleanly removed some of the aft tubing on his 7GCB Champ, then lost directional control, and ate some trees before stopping. They trailered the remains back to the road system and thence to the airport for inspection. Spars were cracked. Not saying it can't be done safely but be careful when testing the quality of parts back there.

Gary
 
Personally, I like the tail wheel to touch perhaps an inch before the mains. If the tail wheel is higher than the mains it could initiate bouncing and PIO (pilot induced oscillations). I watched a PanAm 707 do this when it landed on the nose gear first, slamming the main gear down and then the nose gear ect. Hippity hop down the runway. It was a sight to see. There is an airline term for such an event "Take that runway!". When landing in the rough keep it slow with the tail wheel just above the mains (to protect the tail wheel). Tail wheels are rather flimsy.

You're only at risk of a PIO if you hit your tailwheel before the mains. This causes it to "slap down" like you're saying causing a bounce. Even though the 707 is the opposite of a tailwheel plane that's exactly what happens on tricycle gear is you hit the nose wheel first and it forces the mains down hard and you bounce back up. Same with a tailwheel if you hit the tailwheel first. Makes the whole plane feel like a rocking horse bouncing forward into the gear then back into the tail. Yet another reason why I avoid 3 point landings.
 
In my experience, PIO is always a result of not having the stick all the way back. In any of those conditions above PIO can be avoided by power off, stick all the way back, keep it straight and wait. It will eventually be over.

sj
 
Have you sat in the airplane and had someone lift the tail with the prop vertical? You have to get the nose uncomfortably low for it to be close to hitting the ground
 
Have you sat in the airplane and had someone lift the tail with the prop vertical? You have to get the nose uncomfortably low for it to be close to hitting the ground

When I was younger and stronger, I used to do this with all my tailwheel students before we worked on wheel landings. Now I tell them to "imagine".... :)

sj
 
When I was younger and stronger, I used to do this with all my tailwheel students before we worked on wheel landings. Now I tell them to "imagine".... :)

sj

It’s real easy when your putting the wheels back on after floats and it’s hanging from the ceiling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
You're only at risk of a PIO if you hit your tailwheel before the mains.

Strongly disagree with this assertion. An inexperienced tail wheel pilot attempting a 3 point landing and touching mains first will be very likely to get into a PIO as they attempt to recover from the launch back into the sky when the tail comes down.

Similarly an inexperienced tail wheel pilot may get into a PIO when attempting a wheel landing and trying to recover from the inadvertent takeoff that results from not preventing the tail going down when the mains touch.

Anyone who has not seen both of these cases probably didn't do much tail wheel instructing.
 
My Clipper 3 pointed beautifully. Always seemed to touch the tailwheel just slightly before the mains and she was done flying, rolled out perfectly with the stick in my gut.
 
This is all very airplane specific. In the T-18, touching mains first on a planned 3 point can cause a bounce and a PIO. Landing tailwheel first, which is very easy to do, can lead to an energetic bounce and spontaneous round of expletives.
 
For this post 3 point means as the plane would sit at the tie downs. Pilot induced oscillations can be cause by several factors usually starting with a poor landing at too great of an airspeed. In a taildragger it can be aggravated by the pilot trying to play catchup with the "bounce". We need to look at the cause of the bounce to find a good cure. First off is it really a bounce or just a touch and go landing?? If you are coming in fast and hit with the mains first and do not control the downward motion of the tail your AOA will increase and the plane will simply fly off again. It was not so much a bounce as the plane returning to flight. The same thing can happen with a tailwheel first landing at high speed, it is not so much the bounce but the AOA + Airspeed that is putting the plane back in the air. This will continue until the airspeed decreases enough for the plane to stay on the ground in 3 point attitude. Go back to the plane in the 3 point takedown attitude it will come off the runway just fine with enough speed. But sooner if we would increase the AOA that is what that bounce is doing increasing the AOA enough for the plane to fly again. SJ described my tried and true method for a pacer/cub (I would occasionally add a Yea Haw) I can't think of a plane it would not work in. Then some years back I was flying some jugs over to Hollywood strip to get worked on. My IA was in the back as I started my usually screw up bounce landing technique he simply put the stick forward and "stuck the mains" It was a real eye opener for me I had tried to do it myself in the past but just did not use enough force to make it work. Now what we have done by picking up the tail is remove the lift from the wings. The mains now stick and you gave better breaking/directional control. CAUTION!! Sometimes you breaking is too good. Both techniques will work fine in most situations. The key for both new and old pilot is to get GOOD INSTRUCTION!! Just burning AVGAS and doing the same thing wrong on every landing does not help.
DENNY
 
When I was younger and stronger, I used to do this with all my tailwheel students before we worked on wheel landings. Now I tell them to "imagine".... :)

Hey you're still younger.................well, compared to me.
Arnold
 
I'm glad I asked, outstanding discussion from a lot of very talented and knowledgeable pilots. Thank you all, I've certainly learned a few things, most important of which is probably that there will be different techniques necessary for different types of airplanes, even something as relatively similar as a citabria and a cub.
 
Without researching it, it seems like the no-bounce was still on in 66 or 67? Around 68 they went to the spring gear. Covering the wings on a 7GCAA right now that is a 66 with the oleo gear. 150hp with no flaps.
 
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