Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
Don't know how you would train for it, I think instinct takes over when the trees are coming up fast and you got no other out. Fly the airplane to the crash site.
3 point landings on pavement?
- Thread starter Narwhal
- Start date
Don't know how you would train for it, I think instinct takes over when the trees are coming up fast and you got no other out. Fly the airplane to the crash site.
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
I have experienced inadvertent ground loops in glider out landings. Those long low wings like to find stuff to snag. I was also treated to a low speed ground loop by a student in an Aeronca Chief.
I think it may be useful to know in advance which way to move the ailerons. With neutral aileron the outside wing will rise and, if the inside wing goes down and catches on something, the ride is going to get a lot more exciting than if the wings were kept closer to level.
I think it may be useful to know in advance which way to move the ailerons. With neutral aileron the outside wing will rise and, if the inside wing goes down and catches on something, the ride is going to get a lot more exciting than if the wings were kept closer to level.
Several factors and mental prep go into properly using a ground loop when landing. So let's start with that. First is you should be practicing stopping short a lot. I pretty much do it on every landing, part of that is alternate breaking from the time my tires touch this helps burn off energy, just like proactive rudder waging but adding brakes. It doesn't have to a lot when you first start out just get you heels used to touching the brakes after a while it will just happen you don't need to do alternate lock up like we do in STOL contests just feel the drag then switch to the other side. Now you brain and feet trained and the reflex is not just lock up both and flip the plane on its back, I think this simple exercise would prevent a lot of flips even the planes is equipped the the Devil toe brakes. On every landing always pick out what side of the runway you will will want to crash on (the side with all the 200,000 dollar planes parked or into the brush) Then mentally set your ground loop point at the end, that is just basic off field 101 but once again how many tell the student to do that? Doing the training is pretty simple. First clean and check your gear closely because you are going to stress it, maybe not do this with 70 year old stock gear legs. Set your bushwheels at 6-8 lbs so you don't roll them under and scrub a caliper. Then go find yourself a nice dirt/grass runway that is about twice plane width wide if possible. Now just start rolling along at 5 mph and lock up one wheel, see how the plane reacts. Now do the other side. Continue building speed until you are about 5-10 mph with a cub. At 15 mph you will start to feel the inside wing really want to lift at that speed, any faster and all bets are off so just work 5-10 mph and get the feel for it that is all you need. Pay attention to what you are doing with the stick, keeping the tail down and lifting the outside wing. Spring gear does not take well to big side loads especially with a tucking Bushwheel so be gentle with them. I expect most CFI'S will think you are crazy for wanting to try doing this unless they have had a lot of time working off field. This is way too much for a new pilot just trying to learn to fly, so just get them used to light alternate breaking and demonstrate the rest. For a 1,000 hr nose wheel pilot this should only add an hour or so of ground training, over a few flights. Is this all just crazy talk or useful? Look at all the videos of people running off big, wide, long runways locking up the brakes and flipping the plane. You don't need to be on a 400 ft mountain strip for this skill to help you.
DENNY
DENNY
You are right, what you are training is for the instinct to only lock one wheel not both. If you only train to apply even pressure to both brakes that is all the reflex you will have when the trees/water/cut bank/buddys plane gets close the reflex is to just push both harder, not just lock one wheel and spin. Just like the pacer pedal dance it is all reflex you don't think it just happens.
DENNY
Eddie Foy
MEMBER
South Florida
Kid Durango
FRIEND
Rangely, Co
So if I’m headed at something I don’t like, how is going in backwards going to help? Better braking? Not trying to be a smart aleck, just curious for what I’m missing. Thanks
Gordon Misch
MEMBER
Toledo, Wa (KTDO)
Change direction, at least somewhat, and use up some of the forward motion in the creation of rotational motion.
The goal is not to turn backwards it is to spin the plane in place redirect the energy into a circle without doing damage or flipping the plane on its back. You choose when and where it will for it to happen and stay on the runway. It will look like this https://www.aviatelife.com/journal/practicing-tailwheel-ground-loops-on-purpose The speed you enter the event will determine the success. A full brake lock at 5 mph can easily put a cub on its nose a 10 mph ground loop is pretty benign. DENNY
Gordon Misch
MEMBER
Toledo, Wa (KTDO)
And that! 8)
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
If you find yourself going backwards, applying power will help you stop.
RaisedByWolves
FRIEND
Tx
I feel like if you have to ground-loop intentionally you’re way behind the airplane. Maybe fly with an instructor and work on your decision making skills.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
One of the things ole Ray taught me 28 years ago when I got my 11 was how, why and when to GL it
Glenn
JP
FOUNDER
The Big Woods of Maine
Hmmm. Talk about intentional ground loops makes me nervous. I think there is an easier way. My instructor spent a great deal of time in my early days of Cub flying having me practice (with him) "fast taxis" on a paved runway to gain experience in the the "jabbing dance" rudder work necessary to keep the aircraft going straight. We started slow and worked up, also adding in windy days. We also flew a lot on windy days. Good practice. Served me well.
DJ
MEMBER
Bolivia
I wanted to know the airplane. Took it out on a wide grass strip and practiced letting it spin around on it's own (not locking a tire) starting at 5 mph. 15 mph was ok, between 15 and 20 was where it got too exciting. Don't take those numbers to mean anything in a different Cub.
Great thing about a Cub is the time spent in that high risk zone between 20 and 35 or 35 and 20 is minimal.
An intentional power ground loop probably saved my life back in February. Of course poor judgement got me in that situation in the first place.
Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
Great thing about a Cub is the time spent in that high risk zone between 20 and 35 or 35 and 20 is minimal.
An intentional power ground loop probably saved my life back in February. Of course poor judgement got me in that situation in the first place.
Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
Coeur d'Alene, ID
I thought I could correct anything a student could do…I found out I was wrong when I had a student lock on one brake at touchdown. I really don’t care much for brakes. They can get you in more trouble than they can get you out of [emoji53]
Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org mobile app
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Aircraft brakes are just another of the several aircrafts systems. Like fuel systems, electrical systems, the engine or other systems in the aircraft, they work fine when properly maintained and properly used.
Like any other of the aircrafts systems, abuse or misuse that system and things may get expensive.
MTV
Like any other of the aircrafts systems, abuse or misuse that system and things may get expensive.
MTV
Cub floor pedals remind me of a mid-50s VW Beetle's pedals. Did they get me across town to high school? Yes. Is it what I'd want in my car or truck today? Oh, hell no. Teach your kids to drive in a current model car and then let them drive an old VW. You'll be in for a herky-jerky ride. Why would new-to-Cub pilots be any different?
I get that legacy Cubs are stuck with what they have thanks to the FAA. Experimental Cubs aren't limited to 1940s design. Backcountry and Mackey have much better foot pedals.
I get that legacy Cubs are stuck with what they have thanks to the FAA. Experimental Cubs aren't limited to 1940s design. Backcountry and Mackey have much better foot pedals.
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
My Taylorcraft has a cable activated parking brake. It's possible to lightly apply both brakes at once by pulling the twist to lock brake T handle. Not the intended use but does work.
bob turner
Registered User
I love Cub brakes. I put up with toe brakes in my Decathlon, but if somebody ever wanted to swap . . .
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
Opinion, I happen to feel differently having learned in a Clipper with toe brakes, fly a lot of Carbon Cubs with toe brakes I still prefer heel brakes in my Super Cub.
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
I didn't practice anything but flying, taking off and landing. When the engine quit and I had to land in a field I used a slip to avoid the trees and land in the field. When I came in too fast with a tail wind up hill and was about to hit trees and didn't feel I had the power to out climb the trees I stated tapping brake with full rudder and got the airplane turned to avoid the trees. On short final when I got caught in a dust devil and the wings were swapping ends I shoved the stick and the throttle forward and flew out of it. No special skills but I fly as much as I can in smooth air, wind or what ever. I think all that stick time has made some things more of an instinct. When I was first learning to fly I had two mentors, Howard Pardue and Nelson Ezell. These guys flew big iron, Corsairs, Bearcats, Sea Furies all the WWII fighters. I was struggling to grasp keeping my Piper Clipper straight down the runway and they kept telling me "you just make the airplane do what you want it to do". That frustrated me to no end until it started clicking. I worked at the airport and took my lunch, ate real fast on my lunch break and went flying, after work I did the same thing. I learned how to make that Clipper do what I wanted it to do. I fly at least once a week if not more. I can tell how long it has been since I have flown by my skill on any given day. Even 2 weeks degrades my skills appreciably. Just got back from 4 days in Arkansas and grateful for the skills I have learned over the years. They sure allow me to go to some cool places.
