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Thread: 3 point landings on pavement?

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    I'm curious as to why landing tailwheel first is apparently such a sin?
    I certainly don't think it is. However, it does not meet what I believe to be the definition of a 3 point landing.
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  2. #42
    SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    I certainly don't think it is. However, it does not meet what I believe to be the definition of a 3 point landing.
    Actually, many believe (including me) that tail first is still considered a 3pt.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  3. #43

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    I teach my Cub students to try for tailwheel first. That way they get a definite stall an instant before touchdown. Very smooth, with stick against the aft stop, power off.

    Do that in a Decathlon and you will damage the main gear attach points.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    I'm curious as to why landing tailwheel first is apparently such a sin?
    I've landed tailwheel first before, and as long as the wheels all touch down reasonably softly,
    I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with it.
    In fact, if the wing is still flying,
    the angle of attack will be reduced when the mains come down & the wing will quit flying.
    I remember reading a Maule M4 pirep in an airplane magazine years ago when the writer brought this up,
    he said that Maule had a pretty flat attitude on the ground & so it was hard to avoid touching down t/w first--
    apparently he wasn't a fan of wheel-landing.
    I don't see a big issue with it either, as long as the impact loads are kept low. I haven't studied the regulations as far as the tail wheel drops tests go for certification, I suspect they are minimal. The drop testing required for the main gear is something else. You would not want to see it done on your plane.

    One thing to think about when you see a plane being dragged in with power, nose very high and the tail wheel being the first to hit the rough. Once the tail wheel is on the ground, the angle of attack decreases as the rest of the plane pivots on the tail wheel. When this happens the ability of the wing to support the plane rapidly is decreased effectively increasing the stall speed. Thus increasing the rate of descent and the impact loads on the main gear. Not a good idea particularly if you are landing on a rough off airport surface. Perhaps this is why the safety cables and a lot of broken main gears?

    Personally, I like the tail wheel to touch perhaps an inch before the mains. If the tail wheel is higher than the mains it could initiate bouncing and PIO (pilot induced oscillations). I watched a PanAm 707 do this when it landed on the nose gear first, slamming the main gear down and then the nose gear ect. Hippity hop down the runway. It was a sight to see. There is an airline term for such an event "Take that runway!". When landing in the rough keep it slow with the tail wheel just above the mains (to protect the tail wheel). Tail wheels are rather flimsy.
    N1PA
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  5. #45
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Why risk damaging an airframe or gear by hitting a standard size tailwheel first...if there's other options? The last event I witnessed the pilot cleanly removed some of the aft tubing on his 7GCB Champ, then lost directional control, and ate some trees before stopping. They trailered the remains back to the road system and thence to the airport for inspection. Spars were cracked. Not saying it can't be done safely but be careful when testing the quality of parts back there.

    Gary
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Personally, I like the tail wheel to touch perhaps an inch before the mains. If the tail wheel is higher than the mains it could initiate bouncing and PIO (pilot induced oscillations). I watched a PanAm 707 do this when it landed on the nose gear first, slamming the main gear down and then the nose gear ect. Hippity hop down the runway. It was a sight to see. There is an airline term for such an event "Take that runway!". When landing in the rough keep it slow with the tail wheel just above the mains (to protect the tail wheel). Tail wheels are rather flimsy.
    You're only at risk of a PIO if you hit your tailwheel before the mains. This causes it to "slap down" like you're saying causing a bounce. Even though the 707 is the opposite of a tailwheel plane that's exactly what happens on tricycle gear is you hit the nose wheel first and it forces the mains down hard and you bounce back up. Same with a tailwheel if you hit the tailwheel first. Makes the whole plane feel like a rocking horse bouncing forward into the gear then back into the tail. Yet another reason why I avoid 3 point landings.
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  7. #47
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    In my experience, PIO is always a result of not having the stick all the way back. In any of those conditions above PIO can be avoided by power off, stick all the way back, keep it straight and wait. It will eventually be over.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  8. #48
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    Have you sat in the airplane and had someone lift the tail with the prop vertical? You have to get the nose uncomfortably low for it to be close to hitting the ground
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Have you sat in the airplane and had someone lift the tail with the prop vertical? You have to get the nose uncomfortably low for it to be close to hitting the ground
    When I was younger and stronger, I used to do this with all my tailwheel students before we worked on wheel landings. Now I tell them to "imagine"....

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    When I was younger and stronger, I used to do this with all my tailwheel students before we worked on wheel landings. Now I tell them to "imagine"....

    sj
    It’s real easy when your putting the wheels back on after floats and it’s hanging from the ceiling.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    You're only at risk of a PIO if you hit your tailwheel before the mains.
    Strongly disagree with this assertion. An inexperienced tail wheel pilot attempting a 3 point landing and touching mains first will be very likely to get into a PIO as they attempt to recover from the launch back into the sky when the tail comes down.

    Similarly an inexperienced tail wheel pilot may get into a PIO when attempting a wheel landing and trying to recover from the inadvertent takeoff that results from not preventing the tail going down when the mains touch.

    Anyone who has not seen both of these cases probably didn't do much tail wheel instructing.
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  12. #52
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    My Clipper 3 pointed beautifully. Always seemed to touch the tailwheel just slightly before the mains and she was done flying, rolled out perfectly with the stick in my gut.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
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  13. #53
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    This is all very airplane specific. In the T-18, touching mains first on a planned 3 point can cause a bounce and a PIO. Landing tailwheel first, which is very easy to do, can lead to an energetic bounce and spontaneous round of expletives.

  14. #54

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    For this post 3 point means as the plane would sit at the tie downs. Pilot induced oscillations can be cause by several factors usually starting with a poor landing at too great of an airspeed. In a taildragger it can be aggravated by the pilot trying to play catchup with the "bounce". We need to look at the cause of the bounce to find a good cure. First off is it really a bounce or just a touch and go landing?? If you are coming in fast and hit with the mains first and do not control the downward motion of the tail your AOA will increase and the plane will simply fly off again. It was not so much a bounce as the plane returning to flight. The same thing can happen with a tailwheel first landing at high speed, it is not so much the bounce but the AOA + Airspeed that is putting the plane back in the air. This will continue until the airspeed decreases enough for the plane to stay on the ground in 3 point attitude. Go back to the plane in the 3 point takedown attitude it will come off the runway just fine with enough speed. But sooner if we would increase the AOA that is what that bounce is doing increasing the AOA enough for the plane to fly again. SJ described my tried and true method for a pacer/cub (I would occasionally add a Yea Haw) I can't think of a plane it would not work in. Then some years back I was flying some jugs over to Hollywood strip to get worked on. My IA was in the back as I started my usually screw up bounce landing technique he simply put the stick forward and "stuck the mains" It was a real eye opener for me I had tried to do it myself in the past but just did not use enough force to make it work. Now what we have done by picking up the tail is remove the lift from the wings. The mains now stick and you gave better breaking/directional control. CAUTION!! Sometimes you breaking is too good. Both techniques will work fine in most situations. The key for both new and old pilot is to get GOOD INSTRUCTION!! Just burning AVGAS and doing the same thing wrong on every landing does not help.
    DENNY
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  15. #55
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    Here's an opinion piece about landings that seems reasonable in my experience> https://www.bellanca-championclub.co...lLandings.html

    Gary
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  16. #56

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    When I was younger and stronger, I used to do this with all my tailwheel students before we worked on wheel landings. Now I tell them to "imagine"....

    Hey you're still younger.................well, compared to me.
    Arnold
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  17. #57

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    I'm glad I asked, outstanding discussion from a lot of very talented and knowledgeable pilots. Thank you all, I've certainly learned a few things, most important of which is probably that there will be different techniques necessary for different types of airplanes, even something as relatively similar as a citabria and a cub.
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  18. #58
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Add this approved gear to a Citabria and the bunny bounce problems likely go away. Couldn't resist the thread spread.

    Gary
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  19. #59
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Add this approved gear to a Citabria and the bunny bounce problems likely go away. Couldn't resist the thread spread.

    Gary
    That gear replaces the earlier "no bounce" original style gear, not the more common Citabria leaf spring gear. I don't remember when they started calling them Citabria or the time line of changing the gear types. Could be both at the same time, when they squared the tail?
    N1PA
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  20. #60
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    Without researching it, it seems like the no-bounce was still on in 66 or 67? Around 68 they went to the spring gear. Covering the wings on a 7GCAA right now that is a 66 with the oleo gear. 150hp with no flaps.
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  21. #61
    supercrow's Avatar
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    Also worked on an old 7GCBC a while ago that had the oleo gear on it.
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  22. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    What is the AOA doing at touchdown. I usually 3 point the FX3 and it feels like a full stall to me. I haven't gotten proficient at dumping the flaps on the Cub Crafters proucts like I have on a Super Cub.
    Same here with an EX2.

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!
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  23. #63

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    I flew a Citabria with oleo gear and square tail. I have its date somewhere - 1968 from memory. Prefer the spring aluminum gear now being used.
    The J4 has oleo gear, but doesn't have the peculiar drop-down feature that the Aeroncas had - I think the fluid in the J4 struts is more for lubrication than anything else.
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  24. #64
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    Pilot induced oscillation is caused by the same thing that makes gear bounce. Too much speed.

  25. #65
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    There were a couple of Citabria spring gears. The early were stout and wide while later versions had tapered gear ends near the axles. I had both and the latter were softer. My 7GCBC was converted to Scout gear that rarely moved as it was designed for a heavier GW model. We also measured the toe in/out and shims were added to align the wheels which helped (it had Cessna solid axles for skis). Don't recall the final dimensions but it was a handful before the adjustments.

    Gary
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  26. #66
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    Practice “dragging the strip” with a go-around. It will help with all your landings by getting the differing view of the horizon and cowl ingrained in your head for each technique. I use wheel landings most the time for the same reason we use “ soft field” techniques and it keeps the debris out of the horizontal stabilizer. Just stay away from the brakes though.
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