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3 point landings on pavement?

N

Narwhal

PATRON
ANC
I'm getting ready for my experimental cub to be finished next year. Insurance wants 100 TW/50 in type so I'm renting a Citabria 7ECA since I started this whole adventure with only 15 TW from 18 years ago. It's actually a very fun airplane, although very weight limited. I did a few supercub lessons this year but everyone has them on 35's operating off gravel and I remember from flying the Stinson 108 for my endorsement back in the day that 35's + gravel feel nothing like small wheels on pavement, the 35's are just too easy. The citabria has small tires, 6.00's I guess.

So, I did a 5 hour checkout with a really good instructor who I'm glad I had around because the first flight was a real mess, especially since we started with wheel landings. He is against doing 3 point landings on pavement. Reasons given were that wheel landings provide better visibility and control authority if tires' grip on the runway causes the airplane to swerve. I guess, in most tailwheel airplanes there's no reason to need to do a 3 pointer on pavement because any paved runway is probably 3x longer than what you need. I do feel a bit silly using 2000 feet to land though, granted it's my wheel landing technique that is most of the problem I'm sure.

Any thoughts on this? Do big tires vs small tires make a difference? I will say that in the Citabria The tailwheel definitely hits first in a power off 3 pointer. I think I have to carry 1000-1200 rpm to do a "tail low" wheel landing or even a more simultanous 3 pointer.

So no, I haven't tried a 3 pointer on pavement but it seems like it might be a good skill to have.

 
I do both but most times. I 3 point even in a strong cross wind. Just feels like I have better control. You need all the tools you can learn some days.

Glenn
 
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This is an age old argument. I always three point my C170B. I three pointed my T-Craft. Did it with my Legend Cub. Did it with my Great Lakes. Did it with my Fleet 16B. Did it with a Stearman I ferried back and fort to FL numerous times. Same with the WACO UBA, also with a PA18-150 and a Top Cub.

I have never flown a C195 or a Staggerwing Beech but my buddy has them and always wheel lands them. I assume he likes that better or the airplane likes it better.


The only time I think a wheel landing is needed in small airplanes is when the crosswind is such that you can’t stop the drift so you get the upwind wheel on the ground first. I’m not saying you shouldn’t master wheel landings. You should. I personally have little use for them in the real world.

Others may have a different view.

Rich
 
If persisting in hitting tail first keep a close eye on the tailwheel and spring. Over time Citabria tailwheels on short springs like to eat rudders if landed hard often enough on the tailwheel. The spring eventually deforms and attaching hardware can loosen. The tailwheel can start to shimmy in the spring compressed position if the pivot axle gets negative (bottom away from plane). Power is your friend. While it's nice to have power-off skills keeping air flowing over the empennage promotes control in a short coupled fuselage. In that plane I liked to approach 3-point and at the last moment plant the mains (to avoid spring gear throwback) then drop the tail and rudder steer or lightly brake through the slow down.

Gary
 
BC12D-4-85 said:
If persisting in hitting tail first keep a close eye on the tailwheel and spring. Over time Citabria tailwheels on short springs like to eat rudders if landed hard often enough on the tailwheel. The spring eventually deforms and attaching hardware can loosen. The tailwheel can start to shimmy in the spring compressed position if the pivot axle gets negative (bottom away from plane). Power is your friend. While it's nice to have power-off skills keeping air flowing over the empennage promotes control in a short coupled fuselage. In that plane I liked to approach 3-point and at the last moment plant the mains (to avoid spring gear throwback) then drop the tail and rudder steer or lightly brake through the slow down.

Gary
Click to expand...

Make sense, maybe that's why they bias toward wheel landings in the 7ECA. No flaps so the full stall pitch attitude in ground effect seems to be about 6-7 degrees maybe more? Just a wild guess but that would probably put tail a foot lower than the mains with those short gear leg and small tires.
 
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Narwhal said:
Make sense, maybe that's why they bias toward wheel landings in the 7ECA. No flaps so the full stall pitch attitude in ground effect seems to be about 10 degrees maybe more? Just a wild guess but that would probably put tail a foot lower than the mains with those short gear leg and small tires.
Click to expand...

Yes that's about it. With small tires on pavement Alpha is reported by Bellanca to be close to 10* (depends on load on gear - mains and tail) while stall happens around 15* +- depending on airflow. VG's can increase that. So it's easy to plant the tail before the mains providing the CG is rear...alone and low on fuel you may find it a different airplane that can be difficult to 3-point as the elevator runs out of authority, especially if the trim tab is down for landing. Try leaving it neutral and fly the stick in that case. They like to bunny hop on the mains. Go around if they get squirrelly or at least try a second landing only when control is regained. As far as 3-point go have a long sit on the ramp to learn how it looks in that attitude...cowl vs earth or stick a mark on the windshield where they meet. You know flying but that plane can test your resolve under the right conditions.

Edit: Notice how it twitched a little sideways as you dropped the tail in the video? Increased Alpha can briefly lighten the main gear loads, and sometimes we're behind the relative amount of rudder required to maintain direction as it slows. Do that in a crosswind and away she goes.

Gary
 
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The YouTube vid is a great helper. Do some flying stuff then review. Nice to see the T&B's ball. Find one for the upper cross tube? They like rudder action. Same for someone on the ground taking pics of the TO and landings if possible. Wish we had that years ago...would have saved lots of CFI vocal cords from damage.

Where's the battery and CG in that plane w or w/o instructor at different loading? Play the aft vs forward CG testing to find out what works best for each configuration. After that plane the Cub (or most any other like tailwheel Cessnas) will be easier in my experience.

Gary
 
When you get you new plane get a good instructor and spend some time learning the plane!! 20 hour with a good tailwheel instructor is just a start. Go do a spin/stall course so you understand what is really happening as you slow down a plane. You can do a wheel landing just as slow or slower than a 3 point when you learn how to fly properly. If your instructor does not know how to do it find a better instructor. DENNY
 
DENNY said:
When you get you new plane get a good instructor and spend some time learning the plane!! 20 hour with a good tailwheel instructor is just a start. Go do a spin/stall course so you understand what is really happening as you slow down a plane. You can do a wheel landing just as slow or slower than a 3 point when you learn how to fly properly. If your instructor does not know how to do it find a better instructor. DENNY
Click to expand...

Thanks. I'm doing the 5 day type-specific Tac-Aero course for the new plane in a few weeks, which should be good for 10-15 hours. I'm just messing with this citabria so that I can focus on Cub-specifics and not have to re-learn so much basic tailwheel while I'm there. My plane doesn't come until next May but I'll probably be looking to fly with a good instructor for another 20 hours after I get it, like you say, before I cut loose in it. Since I need 50 hours in type for insurance, all that should put me close. The kid teaching me in the citabria right now will be off to greener pastures long before that.

Here is the full video with everything except the first takeoff from my first solo flight in the citabria (didn't start the camera for that due to battery life). I'll try to put the camera in a better spot next time. Started out with 3 pointers, the first 2 I definitely flared a little too high. Wheel landings seem to be tons easier without the instructor weighing down the tail.

Not that good, mainly just focusing on not hurting the airplane, but a start I guess. The second landing in particular I tried to add a blip of power to soften the 3 point, but that just ended up putting me at a higher pitch attitude and the tail was too low. Too bad the winds are supposed to 150@15G25 or I'd try again tomorrow.
 
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There is a Bellanca story that needs repeating....new pilot in an 8GCBC Scout took initial instructions with a 200#+ instructor. Later, without that person onboard he drove the plane off the gravel strip-across a low ditch-into a power transformer-and then ate a PA-18 parked nearby. He took prompt corrective action and fixed the damage. They can be unforgiving. Thanks for the extended video.


Gary
 
Narwhal said:
So, I did a 5 hour checkout with a really good instructor who I'm glad I had around because the first flight was a real mess, especially since we started with wheel landings. He is against doing 3 point landings on pavement. Reasons given were that wheel landings provide better visibility and control authority if tires' grip on the runway causes the airplane to swerve.
Click to expand...
I guess he has no idea of how close the propeller tips are to the pavement in that Citabria during a wheel landing. Wait until one of his students scrapes the pavement with the prop. He'll change his perspective.
The visibility from the front seat of a Citabria is good, the back seat not so much. The lessons are not to make the visibility better for the instructor.
 
3 pointed the 7gcbc all the time on paved runways, no issues, and none with visibility. Bunk info you received. Wheel landings eat up tires though.
 
Tac Aero will get you comfortable in the FX3. The FX3 likes to 3 point, the audible AOA is very helpful in letting you know where you are on final. I always pull the stall waring in CC products and had to call the dealer and ask him about those beeps. When I described how they got closer together and went constant just as I touched he said I had it figured out. Was a nice tool to have when in gusty, high DA in the Arkansas hills a short time later.

I wheel land my Super Cub most of the time for visibility, 3 pointed my Clipper and a mix in the Pacer.
 
I find MOST people who "only three point" or "only wheel land" do so because they are not comfortable with the other. They are both important tools to maintain proficiency at IMO on all surfaces (well, except water and possibly the moon).

sj
 
Bigger mains provide more AOA, so hitting tail first is less of an issue. But, in my airplanes? Hitting tail first when power off is a product of excessive speed and too abrupt on the flare. The only way I can maintain a tail-bumping AOA is with power on.

The bigger and heavier the tires the more you feel the initial contact with the ground. I’ve never found it to be a problem but some folks new to big tires are startled by it. It’s less pronounced in 3-point than 2-point.
 
Narwhal said:
He is against doing 3 point landings on pavement. Reasons given were that wheel landings provide better visibility and control authority if tires' grip on the runway causes the airplane to swerve. I guess, in most tailwheel airplanes there's no reason to need to do a 3 pointer on pavement because any paved runway is probably 3x longer than what you need. I do feel a bit silly using 2000 feet to land though, granted it's my wheel landing technique that is most of the problem I'm sure.
Click to expand...

I always 3 point my FX-3 on my home airport's 7,000 ft long, 100 ft wide, paved runway. The touchdown point markers I use are about 600 feet from the taxiway nearest my hangar. That seems like a huge amount of runway and I usually need to add power to expedite off the runway.

I simply do not understand those who want to grind rubber of their BushWheels by rolling at high speed for thousands of feet. There are several who do exactly that at my base airport.

To establish context - my FX-3 is on 26 inch ABW and has stock bungee gear. It is easier to make perfect wheel landings than perfect 3 point landings. I still always use 3 point landings on my base airport's paved runway.

Suffice it to say that I do not agree with your instructor but he may have reasons specific to his airplane or his personal experience.
 
I don't wheel land Bushwheels on pavement. It's bad for the tires, and will definitely get your attention the first time you do it.

If crosswind is an issue, I just angle across the runway.
 
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skywagon8a said:
I guess he has no idea of how close the propeller tips are to the pavement in that Citabria during a wheel landing. Wait until one of his students scrapes the pavement with the prop. He'll change his perspective.
Click to expand...

I took my tailwheel training on a Citabria and they refused to teach wheel landings for that very reason. I had to teach myself that skill on my PA-12 and also found it was much easier to three-point the -12 than the Citabria.

(In Canada there is no "Tailwheel Endorsement")
 
The Grand Sage of Pushaw taught me both. 99% of the time I three point. In my opinion my full stall three points provide shorter landings and more positive control. I do two pointers--windside wheel and tailwheel--in crosswinds, increase aileron deflection and opp rudder as I'm settling down.

If you have been taught to gauge position by side references the fact that you cannot see ahead is simply an indication that you are nicely stalled at 2 feet above the pavement.

The argument for 3 versus 2 is endless. Both are equally important skills. There is no "right" way. Really a matter of preference and what you think is the better way at a given moment.

Personally, I avoid pavement as much as possible.

And, for the record, my wheel landings are woefully inconsistent. Perfect one day. Skippy the next. I really need to practice them more.....;)
 
For me the 3 point was easy to get the hang of initially but I moved away from it pretty fast. Aside from the "saving your tail" aspect of wheel landings, they're also just much more graceful than flopping it in on all 3 wheels. Crosswind always is an issue for me when 3 point landing. Wheel landings have a lot of advantages IMO and you should learn them if you want to have mastery of the airplane.
 
One sage instructor had me drive the 7ECA both 3-point and on the mains up and down a runway at low power. His take was we spend so little time in that mode compared with the rest of the flight it needs practicing by itself. Seemed to help and Tok AK had a long runway.

Gary
 
txpacer said:
I don't wheel land Bushwheels on pavement. It's bad for the tires, and will definitely get your attention the first time you do it.

If crosswind is an issue, I just angle across the runway.
Click to expand...

Actually, I really like Bushwheels on pavement. They "stick" rather than move around. If a crosswind, I stick one on, then work the plane around that pivot point to keep it straight.

Of course, I TRY not to operate on pavement if I can avoid it, with or without Bushwheels.

MTV
 
Citabriae and Decathlons are "different." Buy a J3, fly it a hundred hours, and sell it for what you paid.

My Decathlon cannot be safely "full stall" landed, but it does a very nice 3-point. It takes real skill to do a wheel landing with tail high.

Most Citabriae I have flown do nice full stall 3 pointers. As above, you need to keep the tailwheel in good repair and inflated to 50+ psi. At the first hint of shimmy, fix it!

Get good at wheel landings - but remember, prop strikes can be hideously expensive! There are pilots who jam the stick forward on touch down - they scare the crap outta me! Even in Cubs!

Wheel landings on pavement - especially with big tires - put a rotational load on spring steel gear legs. Just think about how those gear legs are anchored against such rotation, and you will pretty much stop doing those beautiful 60 mph dead-smooth "fly it on" touchdowns.

Opinion.
 
I saw a guy wheel land an RV-6 and push until he got the picture he was used to in the Air Tractor. It splayed the gear pretty hard, damned near made that short prop shorter.
 
Crash said:
... they're also just much more graceful than flopping it in on all 3 wheels.
Click to expand...
You're not supposed to flop it on. It's supposed to go squeak, squeak, squeak. Preferably all three at once. Crosswind is easier since you only have to touch on one at a time. ;-)
 
skywagon8a said:
You're not supposed to flop it on. It's supposed to go squeak, squeak, squeak. Preferably all three at once. Crosswind is easier since you only have to touch on one at a time. ;-)
Click to expand...

A three point landing is, by definition, a landing in which all three wheels touch simultaneously (and stay down). A cross wind equivalent would be a two point landing with upwind main and tail touching simultaneously. Certainly agree with not "flopping" it on. Lots of way to put a tail wheel airplane on the ground. Some are prettier than others but pretty isn't always what's needed.
 
frequent_flyer said:
A three point landing is, by definition, a landing in which all three wheels touch simultaneously (and stay down).
Click to expand...

Actually, a three point is technically also called a "full stall" landing. So if you are going 80mph and can keep all three wheels on the ground in a cub it is technically not a 3pt. The perfect 3 point occurs when all three wheels touch simultaneously as the airplane stalls. It's easy in a J3, not so easy in other variants especially with really big tires.

sj
 
SJ said:
Actually, a three point is technically also called a "full stall" landing. So if you are going 80mph and can keep all three wheels on the ground in a cub it is technically not a 3pt. The perfect 3 point occurs when all three wheels touch simultaneously as the airplane stalls. It's easy in a J3, not so easy in other variants especially with really big tires. sj
Click to expand...

Well I could be wrong but I don't think it's possible to land my FX-3 3 point and full stall with full flaps. That wing likes to keep flying and I'm pretty sure full stall would be tail first. Depending on the aircraft, "full stall" and "3 point" may be mutually exclusive.

I confess to not knowing how to keep a Cub or an FX-3 on the ground 3 point at 80 mph. I think you'd have to remove the wings.

I'm used to the arguments about which is best, 3 point or wheelie, but "what does 3 point mean" is an interesting diversion.
 
I would say the term "full Stall" is very misleading when it comes to a 3 point landing in most any tailwheel aircraft. To some a full stall is when you get a sudden wing drop. To some the wing is considered stalled if cannot maintain altitude without adding power. So this may make sense to the pilots that pull power to idle on downwind and use only airspeed reserve and gravity to make the landing. For pilots that use power when landing the Full stall 3 point may not make sense. Even with big tires and extended gear a cub will fly just fine the length of a runway at 1800-1900 rpm with the tailwheel a foot or more below the mains. Pulling the power back will result in a tailwheel first landing that many will claim as a 3 point. Transition from a tailwheel low attitude (this will give you a slower than 3 point attitude speed) to a smooth 3 point or tailwheel low landing with or without power takes practice but is doable. Having someone film your landings will help you understand what you are doing. Read up on the MAF technique for pointers. DENNY
 
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