Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 66

Thread: 3 point landings on pavement?

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Location
    ANC
    Posts
    127
    Post Thanks / Like

    3 point landings on pavement?

    I'm getting ready for my experimental cub to be finished next year. Insurance wants 100 TW/50 in type so I'm renting a Citabria 7ECA since I started this whole adventure with only 15 TW from 18 years ago. It's actually a very fun airplane, although very weight limited. I did a few supercub lessons this year but everyone has them on 35's operating off gravel and I remember from flying the Stinson 108 for my endorsement back in the day that 35's + gravel feel nothing like small wheels on pavement, the 35's are just too easy. The citabria has small tires, 6.00's I guess.

    So, I did a 5 hour checkout with a really good instructor who I'm glad I had around because the first flight was a real mess, especially since we started with wheel landings. He is against doing 3 point landings on pavement. Reasons given were that wheel landings provide better visibility and control authority if tires' grip on the runway causes the airplane to swerve. I guess, in most tailwheel airplanes there's no reason to need to do a 3 pointer on pavement because any paved runway is probably 3x longer than what you need. I do feel a bit silly using 2000 feet to land though, granted it's my wheel landing technique that is most of the problem I'm sure.

    Any thoughts on this? Do big tires vs small tires make a difference? I will say that in the Citabria The tailwheel definitely hits first in a power off 3 pointer. I think I have to carry 1000-1200 rpm to do a "tail low" wheel landing or even a more simultanous 3 pointer.

    So no, I haven't tried a 3 pointer on pavement but it seems like it might be a good skill to have.


  2. #2
    cubdriver2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    upstate NY
    Posts
    10,869
    Post Thanks / Like
    I do both but most times. I 3 point even in a strong cross wind. Just feels like I have better control. You need all the tools you can learn some days.

    Glenn
    Last edited by cubdriver2; 10-05-2021 at 08:13 PM.
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
    Likes Narwhal, Richgj3, supercrow liked this post

  3. #3
    Richgj3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    LI,NY
    Posts
    1,232
    Post Thanks / Like
    This is an age old argument. I always three point my C170B. I three pointed my T-Craft. Did it with my Legend Cub. Did it with my Great Lakes. Did it with my Fleet 16B. Did it with a Stearman I ferried back and fort to FL numerous times. Same with the WACO UBA, also with a PA18-150 and a Top Cub.

    I have never flown a C195 or a Staggerwing Beech but my buddy has them and always wheel lands them. I assume he likes that better or the airplane likes it better.


    The only time I think a wheel landing is needed in small airplanes is when the crosswind is such that you can’t stop the drift so you get the upwind wheel on the ground first. I’m not saying you shouldn’t master wheel landings. You should. I personally have little use for them in the real world.

    Others may have a different view.

    Rich

  4. #4
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    3,100
    Post Thanks / Like
    If persisting in hitting tail first keep a close eye on the tailwheel and spring. Over time Citabria tailwheels on short springs like to eat rudders if landed hard often enough on the tailwheel. The spring eventually deforms and attaching hardware can loosen. The tailwheel can start to shimmy in the spring compressed position if the pivot axle gets negative (bottom away from plane). Power is your friend. While it's nice to have power-off skills keeping air flowing over the empennage promotes control in a short coupled fuselage. In that plane I liked to approach 3-point and at the last moment plant the mains (to avoid spring gear throwback) then drop the tail and rudder steer or lightly brake through the slow down.

    Gary
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Location
    ANC
    Posts
    127
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    If persisting in hitting tail first keep a close eye on the tailwheel and spring. Over time Citabria tailwheels on short springs like to eat rudders if landed hard often enough on the tailwheel. The spring eventually deforms and attaching hardware can loosen. The tailwheel can start to shimmy in the spring compressed position if the pivot axle gets negative (bottom away from plane). Power is your friend. While it's nice to have power-off skills keeping air flowing over the empennage promotes control in a short coupled fuselage. In that plane I liked to approach 3-point and at the last moment plant the mains (to avoid spring gear throwback) then drop the tail and rudder steer or lightly brake through the slow down.

    Gary
    Make sense, maybe that's why they bias toward wheel landings in the 7ECA. No flaps so the full stall pitch attitude in ground effect seems to be about 6-7 degrees maybe more? Just a wild guess but that would probably put tail a foot lower than the mains with those short gear leg and small tires.
    Last edited by Narwhal; 10-05-2021 at 09:53 PM.

  6. #6
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    3,100
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal View Post
    Make sense, maybe that's why they bias toward wheel landings in the 7ECA. No flaps so the full stall pitch attitude in ground effect seems to be about 10 degrees maybe more? Just a wild guess but that would probably put tail a foot lower than the mains with those short gear leg and small tires.
    Yes that's about it. With small tires on pavement Alpha is reported by Bellanca to be close to 10* (depends on load on gear - mains and tail) while stall happens around 15* +- depending on airflow. VG's can increase that. So it's easy to plant the tail before the mains providing the CG is rear...alone and low on fuel you may find it a different airplane that can be difficult to 3-point as the elevator runs out of authority, especially if the trim tab is down for landing. Try leaving it neutral and fly the stick in that case. They like to bunny hop on the mains. Go around if they get squirrelly or at least try a second landing only when control is regained. As far as 3-point go have a long sit on the ramp to learn how it looks in that attitude...cowl vs earth or stick a mark on the windshield where they meet. You know flying but that plane can test your resolve under the right conditions.

    Edit: Notice how it twitched a little sideways as you dropped the tail in the video? Increased Alpha can briefly lighten the main gear loads, and sometimes we're behind the relative amount of rudder required to maintain direction as it slows. Do that in a crosswind and away she goes.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 10-05-2021 at 10:11 PM.
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  7. #7
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    3,100
    Post Thanks / Like
    The YouTube vid is a great helper. Do some flying stuff then review. Nice to see the T&B's ball. Find one for the upper cross tube? They like rudder action. Same for someone on the ground taking pics of the TO and landings if possible. Wish we had that years ago...would have saved lots of CFI vocal cords from damage.

    Where's the battery and CG in that plane w or w/o instructor at different loading? Play the aft vs forward CG testing to find out what works best for each configuration. After that plane the Cub (or most any other like tailwheel Cessnas) will be easier in my experience.

    Gary
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,513
    Post Thanks / Like
    When you get you new plane get a good instructor and spend some time learning the plane!! 20 hour with a good tailwheel instructor is just a start. Go do a spin/stall course so you understand what is really happening as you slow down a plane. You can do a wheel landing just as slow or slower than a 3 point when you learn how to fly properly. If your instructor does not know how to do it find a better instructor. DENNY
    Likes BC12D-4-85, Narwhal, cub yellow liked this post

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Location
    ANC
    Posts
    127
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    When you get you new plane get a good instructor and spend some time learning the plane!! 20 hour with a good tailwheel instructor is just a start. Go do a spin/stall course so you understand what is really happening as you slow down a plane. You can do a wheel landing just as slow or slower than a 3 point when you learn how to fly properly. If your instructor does not know how to do it find a better instructor. DENNY
    Thanks. I'm doing the 5 day type-specific Tac-Aero course for the new plane in a few weeks, which should be good for 10-15 hours. I'm just messing with this citabria so that I can focus on Cub-specifics and not have to re-learn so much basic tailwheel while I'm there. My plane doesn't come until next May but I'll probably be looking to fly with a good instructor for another 20 hours after I get it, like you say, before I cut loose in it. Since I need 50 hours in type for insurance, all that should put me close. The kid teaching me in the citabria right now will be off to greener pastures long before that.

    Here is the full video with everything except the first takeoff from my first solo flight in the citabria (didn't start the camera for that due to battery life). I'll try to put the camera in a better spot next time. Started out with 3 pointers, the first 2 I definitely flared a little too high. Wheel landings seem to be tons easier without the instructor weighing down the tail.

    Not that good, mainly just focusing on not hurting the airplane, but a start I guess. The second landing in particular I tried to add a blip of power to soften the 3 point, but that just ended up putting me at a higher pitch attitude and the tail was too low. Too bad the winds are supposed to 150@15G25 or I'd try again tomorrow.
    Last edited by Narwhal; 10-06-2021 at 02:33 AM.

  10. #10
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    3,100
    Post Thanks / Like
    There is a Bellanca story that needs repeating....new pilot in an 8GCBC Scout took initial instructions with a 200#+ instructor. Later, without that person onboard he drove the plane off the gravel strip-across a low ditch-into a power transformer-and then ate a PA-18 parked nearby. He took prompt corrective action and fixed the damage. They can be unforgiving. Thanks for the extended video.


    Gary
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  11. #11
    skywagon8a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    11,476
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal View Post
    So, I did a 5 hour checkout with a really good instructor who I'm glad I had around because the first flight was a real mess, especially since we started with wheel landings. He is against doing 3 point landings on pavement. Reasons given were that wheel landings provide better visibility and control authority if tires' grip on the runway causes the airplane to swerve.
    I guess he has no idea of how close the propeller tips are to the pavement in that Citabria during a wheel landing. Wait until one of his students scrapes the pavement with the prop. He'll change his perspective.
    The visibility from the front seat of a Citabria is good, the back seat not so much. The lessons are not to make the visibility better for the instructor.
    N1PA
    Likes bob turner, Narwhal liked this post

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    64
    Post Thanks / Like
    3 pointed the 7gcbc all the time on paved runways, no issues, and none with visibility. Bunk info you received. Wheel landings eat up tires though.
    Thanks hangarmonkey thanked for this post
    Likes skywagon8a, Utah-Jay, bob turner, Narwhal liked this post

  13. #13
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    21,302
    Post Thanks / Like
    Tac Aero will get you comfortable in the FX3. The FX3 likes to 3 point, the audible AOA is very helpful in letting you know where you are on final. I always pull the stall waring in CC products and had to call the dealer and ask him about those beeps. When I described how they got closer together and went constant just as I touched he said I had it figured out. Was a nice tool to have when in gusty, high DA in the Arkansas hills a short time later.

    I wheel land my Super Cub most of the time for visibility, 3 pointed my Clipper and a mix in the Pacer.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
    Thanks A very stick puppy thanked for this post
    Likes Richgj3, Narwhal, cub yellow liked this post

  14. #14
    SJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Northwest Arkansas
    Posts
    15,609
    Post Thanks / Like
    I find MOST people who "only three point" or "only wheel land" do so because they are not comfortable with the other. They are both important tools to maintain proficiency at IMO on all surfaces (well, except water and possibly the moon).

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  15. #15
    stewartb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Wolf Lake, AK
    Posts
    6,564
    Post Thanks / Like
    Bigger mains provide more AOA, so hitting tail first is less of an issue. But, in my airplanes? Hitting tail first when power off is a product of excessive speed and too abrupt on the flare. The only way I can maintain a tail-bumping AOA is with power on.

    The bigger and heavier the tires the more you feel the initial contact with the ground. I’ve never found it to be a problem but some folks new to big tires are startled by it. It’s less pronounced in 3-point than 2-point.
    Thanks hangarmonkey thanked for this post
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  16. #16

    Join Date
    May 2021
    Location
    Arizona, USA
    Posts
    308
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal View Post
    He is against doing 3 point landings on pavement. Reasons given were that wheel landings provide better visibility and control authority if tires' grip on the runway causes the airplane to swerve. I guess, in most tailwheel airplanes there's no reason to need to do a 3 pointer on pavement because any paved runway is probably 3x longer than what you need. I do feel a bit silly using 2000 feet to land though, granted it's my wheel landing technique that is most of the problem I'm sure.
    I always 3 point my FX-3 on my home airport's 7,000 ft long, 100 ft wide, paved runway. The touchdown point markers I use are about 600 feet from the taxiway nearest my hangar. That seems like a huge amount of runway and I usually need to add power to expedite off the runway.

    I simply do not understand those who want to grind rubber of their BushWheels by rolling at high speed for thousands of feet. There are several who do exactly that at my base airport.

    To establish context - my FX-3 is on 26 inch ABW and has stock bungee gear. It is easier to make perfect wheel landings than perfect 3 point landings. I still always use 3 point landings on my base airport's paved runway.

    Suffice it to say that I do not agree with your instructor but he may have reasons specific to his airplane or his personal experience.
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  17. #17
    txpacer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Iowa Park, TX
    Posts
    840
    Post Thanks / Like
    I don't wheel land Bushwheels on pavement. It's bad for the tires, and will definitely get your attention the first time you do it.

    If crosswind is an issue, I just angle across the runway.
    Last edited by txpacer; 10-06-2021 at 10:04 AM.
    Likes Narwhal, supercrow liked this post

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    67.8N,115.1W CYCO Canada
    Posts
    1,000
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I guess he has no idea of how close the propeller tips are to the pavement in that Citabria during a wheel landing. Wait until one of his students scrapes the pavement with the prop. He'll change his perspective.
    I took my tailwheel training on a Citabria and they refused to teach wheel landings for that very reason. I had to teach myself that skill on my PA-12 and also found it was much easier to three-point the -12 than the Citabria.

    (In Canada there is no "Tailwheel Endorsement")
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  19. #19
    JP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    The Big Woods of Maine
    Posts
    3,302
    Post Thanks / Like
    The Grand Sage of Pushaw taught me both. 99% of the time I three point. In my opinion my full stall three points provide shorter landings and more positive control. I do two pointers--windside wheel and tailwheel--in crosswinds, increase aileron deflection and opp rudder as I'm settling down.

    If you have been taught to gauge position by side references the fact that you cannot see ahead is simply an indication that you are nicely stalled at 2 feet above the pavement.

    The argument for 3 versus 2 is endless. Both are equally important skills. There is no "right" way. Really a matter of preference and what you think is the better way at a given moment.

    Personally, I avoid pavement as much as possible.

    And, for the record, my wheel landings are woefully inconsistent. Perfect one day. Skippy the next. I really need to practice them more.....
    JP Russell--The Cub Therapist
    1947 PA-11 Cub Special
    Likes Narwhal, Richgj3 liked this post

  20. #20
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    747
    Post Thanks / Like
    For me the 3 point was easy to get the hang of initially but I moved away from it pretty fast. Aside from the "saving your tail" aspect of wheel landings, they're also just much more graceful than flopping it in on all 3 wheels. Crosswind always is an issue for me when 3 point landing. Wheel landings have a lot of advantages IMO and you should learn them if you want to have mastery of the airplane.
    Thanks hangarmonkey thanked for this post
    Likes Narwhal, Richgj3, supercrow liked this post

  21. #21
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    3,100
    Post Thanks / Like
    One sage instructor had me drive the 7ECA both 3-point and on the mains up and down a runway at low power. His take was we spend so little time in that mode compared with the rest of the flight it needs practicing by itself. Seemed to help and Tok AK had a long runway.

    Gary
    Likes DENNY, Narwhal liked this post

  22. #22
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    11,743
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post
    I don't wheel land Bushwheels on pavement. It's bad for the tires, and will definitely get your attention the first time you do it.

    If crosswind is an issue, I just angle across the runway.
    Actually, I really like Bushwheels on pavement. They "stick" rather than move around. If a crosswind, I stick one on, then work the plane around that pivot point to keep it straight.

    Of course, I TRY not to operate on pavement if I can avoid it, with or without Bushwheels.

    MTV
    Likes DENNY, Narwhal, RaisedByWolves liked this post

  23. #23

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,638
    Post Thanks / Like
    Citabriae and Decathlons are "different." Buy a J3, fly it a hundred hours, and sell it for what you paid.

    My Decathlon cannot be safely "full stall" landed, but it does a very nice 3-point. It takes real skill to do a wheel landing with tail high.

    Most Citabriae I have flown do nice full stall 3 pointers. As above, you need to keep the tailwheel in good repair and inflated to 50+ psi. At the first hint of shimmy, fix it!

    Get good at wheel landings - but remember, prop strikes can be hideously expensive! There are pilots who jam the stick forward on touch down - they scare the crap outta me! Even in Cubs!

    Wheel landings on pavement - especially with big tires - put a rotational load on spring steel gear legs. Just think about how those gear legs are anchored against such rotation, and you will pretty much stop doing those beautiful 60 mph dead-smooth "fly it on" touchdowns.

    Opinion.
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  24. #24
    txpacer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Iowa Park, TX
    Posts
    840
    Post Thanks / Like
    I saw a guy wheel land an RV-6 and push until he got the picture he was used to in the Air Tractor. It splayed the gear pretty hard, damned near made that short prop shorter.
    Thanks JeffP thanked for this post
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  25. #25
    skywagon8a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    11,476
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    ... they're also just much more graceful than flopping it in on all 3 wheels.
    You're not supposed to flop it on. It's supposed to go squeak, squeak, squeak. Preferably all three at once. Crosswind is easier since you only have to touch on one at a time.
    N1PA
    Likes Richgj3, Narwhal liked this post

  26. #26

    Join Date
    May 2021
    Location
    Arizona, USA
    Posts
    308
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    You're not supposed to flop it on. It's supposed to go squeak, squeak, squeak. Preferably all three at once. Crosswind is easier since you only have to touch on one at a time.
    A three point landing is, by definition, a landing in which all three wheels touch simultaneously (and stay down). A cross wind equivalent would be a two point landing with upwind main and tail touching simultaneously. Certainly agree with not "flopping" it on. Lots of way to put a tail wheel airplane on the ground. Some are prettier than others but pretty isn't always what's needed.

  27. #27
    SJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Northwest Arkansas
    Posts
    15,609
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    A three point landing is, by definition, a landing in which all three wheels touch simultaneously (and stay down).
    Actually, a three point is technically also called a "full stall" landing. So if you are going 80mph and can keep all three wheels on the ground in a cub it is technically not a 3pt. The perfect 3 point occurs when all three wheels touch simultaneously as the airplane stalls. It's easy in a J3, not so easy in other variants especially with really big tires.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  28. #28

    Join Date
    May 2021
    Location
    Arizona, USA
    Posts
    308
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Actually, a three point is technically also called a "full stall" landing. So if you are going 80mph and can keep all three wheels on the ground in a cub it is technically not a 3pt. The perfect 3 point occurs when all three wheels touch simultaneously as the airplane stalls. It's easy in a J3, not so easy in other variants especially with really big tires. sj
    Well I could be wrong but I don't think it's possible to land my FX-3 3 point and full stall with full flaps. That wing likes to keep flying and I'm pretty sure full stall would be tail first. Depending on the aircraft, "full stall" and "3 point" may be mutually exclusive.

    I confess to not knowing how to keep a Cub or an FX-3 on the ground 3 point at 80 mph. I think you'd have to remove the wings.

    I'm used to the arguments about which is best, 3 point or wheelie, but "what does 3 point mean" is an interesting diversion.
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  29. #29

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,513
    Post Thanks / Like
    I would say the term "full Stall" is very misleading when it comes to a 3 point landing in most any tailwheel aircraft. To some a full stall is when you get a sudden wing drop. To some the wing is considered stalled if cannot maintain altitude without adding power. So this may make sense to the pilots that pull power to idle on downwind and use only airspeed reserve and gravity to make the landing. For pilots that use power when landing the Full stall 3 point may not make sense. Even with big tires and extended gear a cub will fly just fine the length of a runway at 1800-1900 rpm with the tailwheel a foot or more below the mains. Pulling the power back will result in a tailwheel first landing that many will claim as a 3 point. Transition from a tailwheel low attitude (this will give you a slower than 3 point attitude speed) to a smooth 3 point or tailwheel low landing with or without power takes practice but is doable. Having someone film your landings will help you understand what you are doing. Read up on the MAF technique for pointers. DENNY
    Likes BC12D-4-85, Eddie Foy, Narwhal, supercrow liked this post

  30. #30

    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Canyon, tx
    Posts
    881
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post

    I confess to not knowing how to keep a Cub or an FX-3 on the ground 3 point at 80 mph. I think you'd have to remove the wings.
    Your airplane goes 80mph!? Damn, must be nice. First world problems I guess.
    Likes Narwhal, DENNY, RaisedByWolves liked this post

  31. #31

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,638
    Post Thanks / Like
    3-point landings can be full stall, but not always. In the Decathlon, full stall is with the tailwheel on the ground and the mains a foot above the pavement. The post-stall portion will knock your fillings out. In the J3 full stall and 3-point happen at the same time.
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  32. #32

    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Location
    ANC
    Posts
    127
    Post Thanks / Like
    Well, even though the winds at the top of arctic valley were 150 @ 30 gusting 50 mph, I went to birchwood airport in Chugiak to try out some pavement 3 pointers. A few little bumps at Eagle River. It went OK, although I think my first one was the best. It definitely seems to work the best if you can touch down in this airplane before the stall, I'm guessing around 45-50 mph before the pitch attitude gets too high. If you float and hold it off too long the pitch attitude gets just a bit too high and the tailwheel hits first. Cubs are probably nothing like this, and based on 5 hours in them, they definitely aren't like that on 35's. In those it seems like you can impale yourself with aft stick and still not touch tailwheel first unless you have an aft CG and/or slats.


  33. #33

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,513
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhal View Post
    Well, even though the winds at the top of arctic valley were 150 @ 30 gusting 50 mph, I went to birchwood airport in Chugiak to try out some pavement 3 pointers. A few little bumps at Eagle River. It went OK, although I think my first one was the best. It definitely seems to work the best if you can touch down in this airplane before the stall, I'm guessing around 45-50 mph before the pitch attitude gets too high. If you float and hold it off too long the pitch attitude gets just a bit too high and the tailwheel hits first. Cubs are probably nothing like this, and based on 5 hours in them, they definitely aren't like that on 35's. In those it seems like you can impale yourself with aft stick and still not touch tailwheel first unless you have an aft CG and/or slats.

    Very nice approch/landings!! Don't be a a big hurry to land or take off short. Just develop good habits, get spin training, and give it a few hundred hours, you are doing fine. It is very easy to to a tail first landing on 35in Bushwheels with extended gear. I don't know what cub you have been flying but I suspect you have had a touchdown speed around 50 mph. If you slow a cub down to 38-40 mph your tail wheel will be well below the mains even with 35 in tires. If I sit up straight in my seat I have a rivet line on the cowl that I see over my GPS when I land tail first. Hide the line and it is a tailwheel low. DENNY
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  34. #34

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    7,638
    Post Thanks / Like
    I fly mostly semi-stock Super Cubs with both VG options. I find that I can fully stall the aircraft in any flap configuration and follow that with a gentle 3-point touchdown. I need power in the flare to get the tailwheel to touch first. I can roll on the tailwheel for a hundred feet or so with power.
    Likes Narwhal, mvivion liked this post

  35. #35

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,513
    Post Thanks / Like
    As a side note if you do fully stall the wing with the entire plane off the ground, the mains/wing will drop and pivot down from the tail, the tail will stay in the air until you put it down or speed slows. As Bob says you will notice it!!
    DENNY
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  36. #36
    RVBottomly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
    Posts
    1,252
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    As a side note if you do fully stall the wing with the entire plane off the ground, the mains/wing will drop and pivot down from the tail, the tail will stay in the air until you put it down or speed slows. As Bob says you will notice it!!
    DENNY
    Long ago I was looking at a Citabria to buy. The owner took me up and we flew around some--putting it through a few paces.

    He came back to the airport and lined up for the grass runway, which was good as I found out. His three point was really more of a carrier landing with the tail wheel hitting while the mains were a couple feet up. I felt like I needed a chiropractor after that.

    He said he always landed that way....
    Likes DENNY, Narwhal liked this post

  37. #37
    SJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Northwest Arkansas
    Posts
    15,609
    Post Thanks / Like
    I also don’t like to refer to a wheel landing as a “two point” landing. A two point landing is a tail wheel and one main wheel landing in a heavy crosswind.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
    Likes jrussl, Narwhal liked this post

  38. #38
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Graham, TX
    Posts
    21,302
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    Well I could be wrong but I don't think it's possible to land my FX-3 3 point and full stall with full flaps. That wing likes to keep flying and I'm pretty sure full stall would be tail first. Depending on the aircraft, "full stall" and "3 point" may be mutually exclusive.
    What is the AOA doing at touchdown. I usually 3 point the FX3 and it feels like a full stall to me. I haven't gotten proficient at dumping the flaps on the Cub Crafters proucts like I have on a Super Cub.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  39. #39
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    11,743
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    What is the AOA doing at touchdown. I usually 3 point the FX3 and it feels like a full stall to me. I haven't gotten proficient at dumping the flaps on the Cub Crafters proucts like I have on a Super Cub.
    Yes, there are power OFF stalls, and then there are power ON stalls, which result in very different AOA and deck angle.

    MTV
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

  40. #40
    hotrod180's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    3,694
    Post Thanks / Like
    I'm curious as to why landing tailwheel first is apparently such a sin?
    I've landed tailwheel first before, and as long as the wheels all touch down reasonably softly,
    I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with it.
    In fact, if the wing is still flying,
    the angle of attack will be reduced when the mains come down & the wing will quit flying.
    I remember reading a Maule M4 pirep in an airplane magazine years ago when the writer brought this up,
    he said that Maule had a pretty flat attitude on the ground & so it was hard to avoid touching down t/w first--
    apparently he wasn't a fan of wheel-landing.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
    Likes Narwhal liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. Bushwheels on pavement
    By cactus pete in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 05-01-2006, 06:51 PM
  2. bushwheels on pavement
    By RaisedByWolves in forum Modifications
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-25-2005, 08:37 PM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •