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Thread: New exhaust wrecks FX-3?

  1. #1

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    New exhaust wrecks FX-3?

    I periodically check the NTSB data base for FX-3 accidents. The total is now up to 13 with probably less than 130 in service. Does not look good for insurability. One recent accident report is really strange. A different exhaust system had been fitted and it disintegrated on the first test flight. Engine lost power and aircraft was substantially damaged in off airport landing. - NTSB WPR21LA250

    Couple of questions:

    1. What would be gained by replacing the factory standard 4 into 1 system? Quieter, more power, something else?
    2. Report says new exhaust was titanium header and aluminum muffler. Accident flight photo seem to show an extended tail pipe. Anyone know what exhaust this was?
    Last edited by frequent_flyer; 09-14-2021 at 03:01 PM.
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    http://www.aero-news.net/Subscribe.c...f-ea20610d1bf5
    Tac Aero has been experimenting with titanium gear. Maybe this was another weight savings parts test gone bad?
    Steve Pierce

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    file:///C:/Users/steve/Desktop/Report_WPR21LA250_103360_9_14_2021%202_20_51%20PM. pdf
    Steve Pierce

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Wow, aluminum as a muffler material??

    Glad nobody got hurt.

    MTV

  5. #5
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    My buddy is the DOM at Tac Aero and was the pilot. Just got off the phone with him. Customer had a glass pack, long swiss style muffler made by an aircraft exhaust company cause he didn't like the smell or the sound of the stock FX3 system. They installed the exhaust which had a titanium can to offset the weight of the long muffler. He got 900 to 1000 feet up and the prop stopped. The inner can which is perforated was rolled against the grain and cracked between the holes. The glass in the front of the muffler peeled aft and stopped up the tail end and shut off the exhaust. To quote him the tail pipe looked like a cat's ass.
    Steve Pierce

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    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    I had been wondering about those Swiss mufflers. I thought glass surrounded the inner perforated tube. I'd like to see how it got packed into the tail pipe.

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    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    file:///C:/Users/steve/Desktop/Report_WPR21LA250_103360_9_14_2021%202_20_51%20PM. pdf
    I don't think any of us can access your hard drive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    I don't think any of us can access your hard drive.
    NTSB seems to be making it much harder to give a direct link to a report. When you access the report from the NTSB site it downloads it rather than linking to it. That's why I only gave the report number in my initial post. It's easy enough to find with your favorite search engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    I thought glass surrounded the inner perforated tube. I'd like to see how it got packed into the tail pipe.
    Steve's report indicates the inner perforated tube broke up. It's probably bits of that inner tube that can be seen leaving the aircraft in the video still frame that's included in the NTSB report.
    Last edited by frequent_flyer; 09-14-2021 at 05:40 PM.

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Second report down, and yes, what frequent_flyer posted. The perforated tube was rolled against the grain by the manufacturer, cracked between the perforations and came apart allowing the fiberglass to peel back and clog the tail pipe. They had made multiple static runs before this first test flight. He put it between two apple trees ling one yard to the next. Clipped the tops and just had to replace some sheet metal in the wings and recover them. No substantial structural damage.
    https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-main-pub...th=6&year=2021
    Steve Pierce

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    So, we didn’t learn anything from the first “install a bail” AD.?

    MTV

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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    I'm impressed by how fast the muffler shelled out. Ground run and one flight?

    Web
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  13. #13
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    3 extended ground runs.
    Steve Pierce

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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Is the inner liner TI also?

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    3 extended ground runs.
    A ground run in a Carbon Cub isn't long enough to test much.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    They ran it on the ground for extended amounts of time checking external temps etc.
    Steve Pierce

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    Thanks for posting this. I am planning to do the same thing with my EX-3. The Sky Dynamics 4 into 1 exhaust is painfully loud. The megaphone exhaust outlet is supposed to provide a Conada effect to help scavenging, but I doubt it works at a 45 degree angle as installed. I had one for a while on my RV-8, and the noise level inside that echo chamber would blow away any ANR headset. I finally install a Veterman 4 pipe system (no collector or muffler) and it was much better.

    I am planning to use a Burns Stainless muffler like I have used on a couple of race cars. They are expensive, but high quality, and I've never had one come apart or fail in any way.

    John
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  18. #18
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I have a lot of time in the FX3 and never noticed it being loud, actually seems quiet to me. I am using a Bose headset though.
    Steve Pierce

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    soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    We don't want to see your cat's ass either!

    ;-P

    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    I don't think any of us can access your hard drive.
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  20. #20
    soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    When testing new parts, is it not prudent to stay over the field in test flights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Second report down, and yes, what frequent_flyer posted. The perforated tube was rolled against the grain by the manufacturer, cracked between the perforations and came apart allowing the fiberglass to peel back and clog the tail pipe. They had made multiple static runs before this first test flight. He put it between two apple trees ling one yard to the next. Clipped the tops and just had to replace some sheet metal in the wings and recover them. No substantial structural damage.
    https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-main-pub...th=6&year=2021
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    So if the accident rate is 10% and the aircraft is roughly $200K, what kind of hull premiums do you think will be the norm? An experienced Cub driver I know is paying over $4 grand per yesr for hull coverage on an amphib Cub worth maybe $120K.

    And how are these accidents happening? All ground loops on paved runways, or are they expensive off-airport mishaps?

  22. #22
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    So if the accident rate is 10% and the aircraft is roughly $200K, what kind of hull premiums do you think will be the norm? An experienced Cub driver I know is paying over $4 grand per yesr for hull coverage on an amphib Cub worth maybe $120K.

    And how are these accidents happening? All ground loops on paved runways, or are they expensive off-airport mishaps?

    Ummm, Bob....try doubling that hull value. Or close, at least.

    MTV
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    What Mike said, FX3 is probably going for $360-400K. Had someone looking at an EX3 with 200hrs tt and no tailwheel $14k a year to insure. Surprised anyone would insure. You amphib SC is worth worth than $120k right now I would bet.
    Steve Pierce

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soyAnarchisto View Post
    When testing new parts, is it not prudent to stay over the field in test flights?
    He never left the pattern but.
    Steve Pierce

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    courierguy's Avatar
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    My cheap.exp. has 2200 hours on a Swiss muffler I made, I can only took it off for saving 6 pounds. No problems whatsoever!
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  26. #26
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Well at least that darn legacy gear wasn't at fault this time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I have a lot of time in the FX3 and never noticed it being loud, actually seems quiet to me. I am using a Bose headset though.
    Try taking the Bose headset off. The FX-3 is deafeningly loud compared to my PA-28. The only aircraft I have ever flown that come close to being as loud as the FX-3 is the Husky. Lots of time in PA-18-180 and they were quiet in comparison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    And how are these accidents happening? All ground loops on paved runways, or are they expensive off-airport mishaps?
    The reports for the most recent two FX-3 accidents have no narrative yet. I used ADS-B to check on one of them and it appears to be a departure off the left side of a long paved runway. In the mix are a forced landing due to engine failure (I think crankshaft), now an engine failure due to failed non-standard exhaust, another (from memory) hit trees with full flaps in a failed missed approach. The majority seem to be loss of control on paved runways. I have not seen an NTSB report for an accident while intentionally operating off airport. I suspect that some don't get reported.

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    Try taking the Bose headset off. The FX-3 is deafeningly loud compared to my PA-28. The only aircraft I have ever flown that come close to being as loud as the FX-3 is the Husky. Lots of time in PA-18-180 and they were quiet in comparison.
    Ummmm—Airplanes=Noisy. If you think those planes are noisy, stay far, far away from Beavers……just sayin.

    MTV
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    Is the accident rate due to the aircraft (which I doubt) or the pilot population that buys them? This reminds me of the forked tail doctor killer and then the Cirrus. Good airplanes, but highly motivated and successful owners who maybe don't have the time to get truly proficient. Steve Pierce's video on "Stuff happens" should be mandatory viewing. I mean no offense to any Cubcrafters owner, and frankly I don't know the reason for the accidents. Just worthless naked speculation.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Ummmm—Airplanes=Noisy. If you think those planes are noisy, stay far, far away from Beavers……just sayin.

    MTV
    My thoughts exactly!!

    Very unfair to compare an aluminum cruiser, PA-28, against a fabric and tube plane with built to be light. Totally different missions.

    Doesn't the FX-3 run an engine different than the 180 cubs?

    Imagine the B-17 with WWII ear phones. Yea ha.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Very unfair to compare an aluminum cruiser, PA-28, against a fabric and tube plane with built to be light. Totally different missions.
    Loud noise is loud noise. Steve said he didn't think the FX-3 is loud. I think it's very loud. I didn't compare it to a sound proof booth. I compared it to another aircraft I own and fly. That comparison is meaningful to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Doesn't the FX-3 run an engine different than the 180 cubs?
    Both PA-18-180 that I flew had Lycoming O-360 (don't know which variant). My FX-3 is a Lycoming built IO-360 with CubCrafters specified mods. CubCrafters calls it a 363i. Lycoming calls it a YIO-360-EXP128.

    I have seen a report that the XCub is quieter than the FX-3. This was explained, in part, by thicker windshield and changes to the firewall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasater View Post
    Is the accident rate due to the aircraft (which I doubt) or the pilot population that buys them?
    I wondered the same thing and it was one of the motivations for reading every FX-3 accident report in the NTSB archive. They are there for anyone to read and to form their own opinion. I hesitate to comment on related experience and skill level because there is always a chance I'll be featured in the next accident report. I never stopped believing that a tail wheel airplane will try bite me in the arse when I least expect it.

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    Farmboy's Avatar
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    New exhaust wrecks FX-3?

    To make power, louder sound is typically a byproduct, and also typically one of the first adjustments done to a stock engine to increase power, by unrestricting it. We all know this, but it bears saying.

    Some good exhaust tuners can get the power and keep the sound down, but it can be an art.

    We are well on our way to a tangential thread, but a few of you must be experienced engine guys to explain the best compromise of power and sound. 4-into-2-into-1? 4-into-2? With a crossover for pulse cancellation?


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Anyone try a mechanical flapper in that loud exhaust outlet for tuning or noise suppression?

    Gary

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    soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    He never left the pattern but.
    So engine quit upwind but low enough that he couldn't make the turn back to the field? I'm trying to understand how he had to put it down between two trees if he was still in the pattern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soyAnarchisto View Post
    So engine quit upwind but low enough that he couldn't make the turn back to the field? I'm trying to understand how he had to put it down between two trees if he was still in the pattern.
    NTSB report's estimated accident position is 1 mile from departure end and almost exactly on center line. NTSB report also says "Examination of the airplane by the pilot revealed that the carry-through spar and the fuselage were substantially damaged." The report is preliminary and subject to change.

  38. #38
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soyAnarchisto View Post
    So engine quit upwind but low enough that he couldn't make the turn back to the field? I'm trying to understand how he had to put it down between two trees if he was still in the pattern.
    I have his phone number if you want to ask him. I would guess he thought all was good and got a bit further from the airport than he wanted. I have also test flown several Super Cubs/Carbon Cubs recently after having replaced cams and lifters and there is a point on takeoff that I cannot land back on the airport trying not to do a steep climb. Sometimes you do everything you can, pray and cross your fingers.
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  39. #39
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    NTSB report's estimated accident position is 1 mile from departure end and almost exactly on center line. NTSB report also says "Examination of the airplane by the pilot revealed that the carry-through spar and the fuselage were substantially damaged." The report is preliminary and subject to change.
    He repaired the airplane and said the only damage was sheet metal and recover of the wings. Said he aimed between the biggest gap in the apple trees and just clipped the tops of them with the wings. The top deck structure of the FX3 is pretty substantial. I would think it would take a pretty serious accident to bend either carry-thru spar which is part of the fuselage structure.
    Steve Pierce

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    The last power off practice at my home strip would have ended two ways. Once in the power line and once in the six wire cedar post fence. Lesson taken away was that my pattern was not high enough and my key is nearly over my strip. Could have been worse than two fruit trees.

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