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Young Eagles and Boy Scouts...No Two Place Aircraft!

WindOnHisNose

BENEFACTOR
Lino Lakes MN (MY18)
I attended the New Ulm, MN, annual Pancake Breakfast Sunday and Tony Effenberger, president of the Mankato MN EAA chapter, told me about the Young Eagle rally that had occurred on Saturday. Lots and Lots of kids were able to get into the air. I had offered to give rides in my super cub but was turned down because the Boy Scouts of America has developed a policy to protect their youth which prohibits Young Eagle flights in two place aircraft.

What a shame. One of the things I really am proud of at New Holstein is the great number of Young Eagle flights that are provided in our two place cubs. I don't think there is any comparison between the experience those kids have in a super cub when compared to a four place aircraft (with two kids sitting in the bleachers in the back).

Thought I'd give you all a heads up.

Randy
 
Sorry to hear that! I think the Young Eagle experience at New Holstein is one of the best! One kid per pilot.

Is the concern about two place aircraft being small and dangerous, or that kids should not be alone with an adult who has completed a training regimen to allow them to work with kids?

sj
 
SJ, I'm not sure, but Tony implied it was because of the latter. I hope this mentality doesn't spread to Young Eagle flights in general...I doubt that it will, given that the EAA builders mainly build two place aircraft.

This is lunacy, imho.

Randy
 
My son just "aged out" of scouting at age 18. The Boy Scouts have a strict rule that no adult and can be alone with a scout (except for parent/child). It is a good policy that sometimes makes for logistic headaches.
 
From the EAA Youth Protection Plan Policy (https://www.eaa.org/eaa/youth/youth-protection-policy-and-program/ypp-for-young-eagles)


  • Young Eagles Flights.For obvious practical reasons, there is no requirement that Two-Deep Supervisors be on Young Eagles flights. It will be helpful for you as a Young Eagles pilot and/or ground volunteer or field representative, to take particular care to be sure that the youth and their parents are aware of the circumstances. (Emphasis mine)
Before this, I few over 100 rides with EAA Chapter 1, including lots of Boy Scouts. All of them got basic flight instruction, and signed off in their log books as dual. Then the Boy Scouts demanded copies of licenses, medicals, insurance paperwork and logbook entries for Flight Reviews and annuals. After that I only flew Boy Scouts out of uniform and not in any official capacity. Then The EAA came up with their Youth Protection Program, apparently at the behest of the Boy Scouts. I have no issue with training or background check as I've been through both more times than I can remember. I will not however, explain to parents and kids the risks of being alone with me in my airplane.

I still happily give rides in the Cub, and even sometimes in my Extra 300. Just not though Young Eagles anymore.
 
Another challenge with providing flights for the Boy Scouts has been the prohibition of E-AB and Light Sport aircraft.
 
And you guys know that there is an FAR on the subject allowing only four such flights per year without drug testing the pilots? And you have to give the FSDO copies of your license and flight review? Each time? And no experimentals?

There are caveats - funds must be involved. If you are donating avgas/airplane time that may qualify. 14 CFR 91.146.
 
And you guys know that there is an FAR on the subject allowing only four such flights per year without drug testing the pilots? And you have to give the FSDO copies of your license and flight review? Each time? And no experimentals?

There are caveats - funds must be involved. If you are donating avgas/airplane time that may qualify. 14 CFR 91.146.

You're missing a key component of this Rule. Young Eagles flights are NOT fund raising events as identified in the Rule title, Definitions and text of Paragraph B which states Passenger Carrying flights for the benefit (fundraising) of a charitable, nonprofit or community event. Therefore, in my extensive experience at Holiday Inn Express, said rule does not appear to be applicable to the condition of FREE Young Eagles flights.
 
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And you guys know that there is an FAR on the subject allowing only four such flights per year without drug testing the pilots? And you have to give the FSDO copies of your license and flight review? Each time? And no experimentals?

There are caveats - funds must be involved. If you are donating avgas/airplane time that may qualify. 14 CFR 91.146.

The referenced regulation has a limit of 4 Events not 4 Flights. I see no limitation on the number of fights per event.
 
I am an EAA chapter leader and head of our YE program. We are very cautious selecting any of which camps or organizations we will fly for. Boy Scouts, not a chance ever. If their youth want a ride, have their parent bring them to us. Happy to work with them. This past summer I was going over the paperwork of a week long camp we had not worked with. YE Pilots from their region warned me check their paperwork. All parent signatures were in the same handwriting. I said by by.
I now run invitational events catering to a home school group.The group does the invites, not me. Best group of families we have worked with. We have a few families that have been flying with us for years.
Now the youth get two flights, guaranteed front seat ride and a second ride in different plane if they desire, different plane/pilot as per the rules. If a parent desires a ride, they are in. A youth can not get far if their parent is not supporting them fully.
We also have a new chef on the grill, Not uncommon to hear "best burger ever" I sure wish I could eat beef.
But the Boy Scouts, they are BS.
 
I am an EAA chapter leader and head of our YE program. We are very cautious selecting any of which camps or organizations we will fly for. Boy Scouts, not a chance ever. If their youth want a ride, have their parent bring them to us. Happy to work with them. This past summer I was going over the paperwork of a week long camp we had not worked with. YE Pilots from their region warned me check their paperwork. All parent signatures were in the same handwriting. I said by by.
I now run invitational events catering to a home school group.The group does the invites, not me. Best group of families we have worked with. We have a few families that have been flying with us for years.
Now the youth get two flights, guaranteed front seat ride and a second ride in different plane if they desire, different plane/pilot as per the rules. If a parent desires a ride, they are in. A youth can not get far if their parent is not supporting them fully.
We also have a new chef on the grill, Not uncommon to hear "best burger ever" I sure wish I could eat beef.
But the Boy Scouts, they are BS.

By the by…..they are no longer “Boy Scouts”……just “Scouts”.

Go figure.

MTV
 
So sad how BS is affecting every part of life. The founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell, would be appalled. He developed his ideas in Rhodesia in the 1890s with an amazing but now little known American scout and Indian fighter Frederick Burnham and tested them during the siege of Mafeking where boys trained in woodcraft proved their worth in action. The organisation and the promotion of self reliance and initiative it stood for was amazing - it is dismaying to learn that they have become something less.


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Yeah, what a shame, based on a few miscreants. I was a boy scout, and our leaders were fantastic gentlemen who gave a great deal of their time and energy helping us develop outdoor skills via camping and hiking. Thank you Mr Gurling, Mr Preston, and etc.
 
Im a second generation Eagle Scout. I don’t know if I’d put my kids through the program the way it is now.
What the program stood for and taught I don’t think are high priorities for the scouts. Truly a shame.
I guess that’s what you get with lawyers and fairly high paid professional scouts just trying to keep their jobs in the organization.
 
I started out in the Scouts in the early '60s on the shoreline of Conn. There was something I found very uncomfortable in that group. Nothing ever directly at or near me but I would say I barely spent a week with the scouts. My mom was upset from the investment in the uniform. We were not a well funded family.
My uncle had taken me under his wing and taught me allot, hands on and ethics. While the scouts were whittling sticks my uncle was building a boat. I still build boats, I do not play with sticks.
 
So sad how BS is affecting every part of life. The founder of the Boy Scout movement, Robert Baden-Powell, would be appalled. He developed his ideas in Rhodesia in the 1890s with an amazing but now little known American scout and Indian fighter Frederick Burnham and tested them during the siege of Mafeking where boys trained in woodcraft proved their worth in action. The organisation and the promotion of self reliance and initiative it stood for was amazing - it is dismaying to learn that they have become something less.
When I was a youngster my Dad told me about the time when he was a Scout, he had actually met Robert Baden-Powell. He was quite proud of that meeting.
 
Thank you to all that give youth rides in aircraft, teach youth different skills, and invest in future generations.

The national organizations I grew up with supporting youth activities seem to have gone away for varied reasons- most seem to be someone was caught doing something improper and not fitted with concrete boots.

Boy Scouts served a great purpose. It is unfortunate that society has a belief that there is not a place for an organization to teach young men ethics, responsibility and life skills.

At some point, paperwork becomes more than I am willing to do any organized teaching... it does not stop me from trying to help teach, just not within many of the 'organizational' structures.
 
Interesting read. The issue with scouting is nothing new. I was a leader back in the mid 90's. We had training back then that stressed "two deep leadership" with all kids. Understand, the protection it provided went both ways; protected the leaders and protected the kids. As a teacher for 30+ years, we were "encouraged" to never be alone in the classroom, one on one, with just that individual student in the room. Even to the point that if a student needed help between class periods, you conducted it near an open door. You may notice a lot of teacher desks near the doors of a classroom. Yes, it's a difficult and unfair situation but one that has to be understood. How do you defend yourself from an accusation of something improper when you were simply adjusting a seat belt if you are alone with a child? Face it, some people may see pilots as rich, deep pockets to be exploited. We all need to be careful out there around kids, for both parties protection.

Marty57
 
And, unfortunately, there are perverts out there. That’s how we got where we are, folks, not by a bunch of innocent people being accused irrationally.

Did anyone here watch tonight’s news and see the reporting on the gymnasts? It’s real, folks. They’re out there, and they have been protected for decades.

MTV
 
I guess the perverts are always in the mix with everything, and always have been. I was warned off sending my son for horse riding lessons here because of generalised allegations against instructors. Like everything there will be a degree of truth and one must assess people you meet and make one’s own judgments. Generalised overreactions will never eradicate the disease but will cost the majority the growing experiences that scouting was originally about. If you read Major Fred Burnham’s life story it seems clear that he came in for some abuse but what a man he became - a real American hero and hell on wheels at only 5’4”. It’s a bit like the poor, the homeless, the addicts - they are always among us and individual stories can be tragic- but it’s up to the individual to sink or swim, none of us can swim for anyone else. It’s a pity modern society pretends that we can and makes excessive rules to punish everyone for the actions of the few.


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As a teacher for 30+ years, we were "encouraged" to never be alone in the classroom, one on one, with just that individual student in the room.
Yes, that. Mere appearance of potential impropriety can bite. And a kid who doesn't like his/her grade can 'say things'. I didn't teach as long as Marty did, but I was very, very careful about open classroom door, etc.
 
I’m an Eagle Scout, and a better person for it. All the credit goes to our Scoutmaster, Mr. A. Judd Davis. Terrific man, admired by all. OA Vigil member. Silver Beaver. Someone we all (scouts, parents, troop leaders) looked up to.

Scouting seems to be quite different these days. I was involved in it with my boys (20 years ago), and it seemed quite watered down. It seemed that they wanted to embrace kids of all ages (from roughly 6 - 21) through Tiger Cubs, Cubs, Scouts, and Explorers. The programming for Tiger Cubs and Cubs didn’t seem to connect with the boys, and it felt like BSA missed the target. My boys never continued into Scouts or Explorers, but where I could I tried to teach them some of the things I learned in Scouts. But they missed out on the fun and learning and sense of accomplishment that came from working on merit badges, and the leadership that came from working on and executing their own service projects.

It wouldn’t surprise me if new organizations pop up to try to recreate the Scouting experience I had 50 years ago. It certainly was a great experience, and I’d bet there are lots of kids who would enjoy it these days.
 
I was a Cub Scout, and a Boy Scout in the 60's & early 70's-- never came close to Eagle Scout though.
It was a positive experience, esp for a city kid like myself.
It would have been more positive if I hadn't been such an anti-authority PITA kid, but that's on me.
I have nothing but good to say about all the dads who volunteered to spend some of what I realize now
was their precious time off from work to participate in the activities.
I never encountered or heard of any inappropriate contact between the adults & the kids--
it's very disappointing to hear about that kind of thing in more recent times.
 
I never encountered or heard of any inappropriate contact between the adults & the kids--
it's very disappointing to hear about that kind of thing in more recent times.

That was a long long time ago when the crap of the last decade or so that took the Scouts down was not even imagined.
Even I was a scout in the early-mid 60s. Got in my way of getting things done. I was put into an age group that my early up bringing had already brought me far beyond. My uncle had released me to take his 25' boat out onto Long Island sound alone at 12YO. You learn real quick to look back so you know what the shore looks like so you can navigate back in. I did my share of maintenance on the boat as well, learned what happens with a can of mixed epoxy does when you do not use it fast enough. That to me was learning, whittling sticks in the woods, I was long beyond that.
Yes there is a place for the scouts, more so today where so many parents know less about using their mind and hands than many of us did at 15.
 
I was a Cub Scout, and a Boy Scout in the 60's & early 70's-- never came close to Eagle Scout though.
It was a positive experience, esp for a city kid like myself.
It would have been more positive if I hadn't been such an anti-authority PITA kid, but that's on me.
I have nothing but good to say about all the dads who volunteered to spend some of what I realize now
was their precious time off from work to participate in the activities.
I never encountered or heard of any inappropriate contact between the adults & the kids--
it's very disappointing to hear about that kind of thing in more recent times.


Unfortunately, there is nothing "new" about inappropriate behavior by some adults in kid's programs. It was never talked about back then....it is now. And, about time.

MTV
 
Unfortunately, there is nothing "new" about inappropriate behavior by some adults in kid's programs. It was never talked about back then....it is now. And, about time.

MTV

Hadn't Really thought about it that way.
 
I have been involved in Scouting as a parent and adult leader for the past 22 years. It has changed a little from 40 and more years ago but it is still a great program for boys. It all hinges on having committed parents and volunteers who are supportive and involved. The program can be what the parents, leaders and most importantly the boys (and girls, now) want it to be. High quality programs do exist. If you want to ensure that the program is what you recall from your youth or prior experience then get involved, volunteer your time, knowledge, and caring. The Scouts will recognize it, appreciate it, and strive to achieve and advance.
It is easy to stand back and deride a group- it takes courage to make a difference and get involved. That is the way it has always been and will continue to be.
I don't know about any new rules involved with flying Scouts but if you don't help foster the interest then it will wither.

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