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Thread: Pilot Operating Handbook (POH)

  1. #1

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    Pilot Operating Handbook (POH)

    I have misplaced my POH for my PA-12 which contained my current W&B Data. I have a copy of the W&B page from the actual weighing but not any diagrams of the aircraft and relevant data points such as gas, baggage, passengers, etc. Since the actual weighing I have added AOSS, 31" tires and Baby Bush tail wheel and need to make the necessary changes on the W&B in order to complete the 337 paperwork.

    Any suggestions as to how to create a new W&B data sheet without another weighing of the aircraft? I don't have ready access to accurate scales.

    Thanks,

    Gary Ward

  2. #2
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Measure your stations from datum and do the math. https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...a-h-8083-1.pdf
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    Thanks Stewartb. This is helpful. I think I can just create a new W&B Table since I have the EW and the CG info prior to the changes. Am I correct to assume the "Datum" is the firewall?

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    stewartb's Avatar
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    The TCDS says datum is the leading edge of the wing.
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/45b0fe3b1c17780186256a61006c7931/$FILE/a-780.pdf

    On page 2: Datum Leading edge of wing

    Review the Type Certificate. There is a lot of information there. Accessible through https://www.faa.gov
    N1PA

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    Piper really did some screwy thing with W&B. Not sure on the PA-12, but most other models used 60” forward of the leading edge in the W&B report that is part of the flight manual, while the TCDS shows the wing leading edge as the datum. That has screwed up more W&B calculations than I’d care to count!

    Just a not, there is no “POH”. There is an FAA approved Flight Manual that has to be in the airplane to legally operate it ( about 3 or4 pages mimeographed), and for most models an Owners Handbook that is not a required piece of equipment.


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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    The TCDS says datum is the leading edge of the wing.
    Thanks. This makes more sense seeing that my current W&B before the additions was 1135# EW at 11.11".

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    And, just as a technical note, There is NO “Pilot Operating Handbook” for the PA-12, or the PA-18, for that matter.

    The POH is a very specific document, and, usually, if an airplane has one, it must be aboard the aircraft for flight.

    the 12 and 18 came with an “Operators Manual” or “Owners Handbook”, which is NOT required to be aboard for flight.

    the POH came into use in the mid Seventies aircraft.

    ALL aircraft are required to have a current weight and balance on board for flight. USUALLY, that is the “official” W/B, as documented and signed by, an A&P mechanic.

    Im not sure that a W/B document created by an owner without an A &P certificate meets the criteria required by the FAA, but maybe.

    If twer me, I’d have your mechanic create a new weight and balance certificate, keep one copy in logbooks, another in the plane. It is a very important document.

    MTV

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    And, just as a technical note, There is NO “Pilot Operating Handbook” for the PA-12, or the PA-18, for that matter.

    The POH is a very specific document, and, usually, if an airplane has one, it must be aboard the aircraft for flight.

    the 12 and 18 came with an “Operators Manual” or “Owners Handbook”, which is NOT required to be aboard for flight.

    the POH came into use in the mid Seventies aircraft.

    ALL aircraft are required to have a current weight and balance on board for flight. USUALLY, that is the “official” W/B, as documented and signed by, an A&P mechanic.

    Im not sure that a W/B document created by an owner without an A &P certificate meets the criteria required by the FAA, but maybe.

    If twer me, I’d have your mechanic create a new weight and balance certificate, keep one copy in logbooks, another in the plane. It is a very important document.

    MTV
    Thanks. Very good info.
    My A&P/IA is very busy and I am trying to help him and prepare the paperwork. He will be reviewing and signing off on in.

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    stewartb's Avatar
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    Don’t forget to amend your equipment list.
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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    And, just as a technical note, There is NO “Pilot Operating Handbook” for the PA-12, or the PA-18, for that matter.

    The POH is a very specific document, and, usually, if an airplane has one, it must be aboard the aircraft for flight.

    the 12 and 18 came with an “Operators Manual” or “Owners Handbook”, which is NOT required to be aboard for flight.

    the POH came into use in the mid Seventies aircraft.

    ALL aircraft are required to have a current weight and balance on board for flight. USUALLY, that is the “official” W/B, as documented and signed by, an A&P mechanic.

    Im not sure that a W/B document created by an owner without an A &P certificate meets the criteria required by the FAA, but maybe.

    If twer me, I’d have your mechanic create a new weight and balance certificate, keep one copy in logbooks, another in the plane. It is a very important document.

    MTV
    And if the aircraft has been modified, there are likely Flight Manual Supplements that are required by the various STC installations and they are also required. Note 1 of the TCDS requires your Weight and Balance documentation and Equipment List to be in the aircraft any time it is being operated as well.
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    And if the aircraft has been modified, there are likely Flight Manual Supplements that are required by the various STC installations and they are also required. Note 1 of the TCDS requires your Weight and Balance documentation and Equipment List to be in the aircraft any time it is being operated as well.
    My paper work is already nearly equal to the useful load!
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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Ward View Post
    My paper work is already nearly equal to the useful load!
    And that's the way FAA wants it! Just look at the amount of paper that is in an ADSB Flight Manual Supplement that you can't really do anything with except turn it on!

    All that said, just scan everything into a PDF and load it on your iPad, since most of us fly with one already, you no longer need the paper copy in the airplane. No more worrying about those 3 or 4 pages that were printed 50 or more years ago being blown out the window!

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    I am going to get in trouble here - but here goes:

    An aircraft with an "Airplane Flight Manual" has a specific document with the N-number and an FAA designee signature. For the PA-18 it is Piper Report No. 834, and it must be in the aircraft.

    A POH is a generic version of the AFM, and does not have an N- number or signature. It does not have to be on board.

    I agree - never weigh an older Piper unless you absolutely have to. Seems like that always results in a single seater.

    Most Super Cubs I see have long since lost the AFM. Piper, in a streak of wisdom, made them all the same except for the N-number on page 1 and N number and serial # on page 4. J W McNary signed them all. One can see a way to become legal, I think.

    Don't believe me? See the all caps note on page 1.

    I bet the same is true for the 12. The early birds (J3, etc) do not have this requirement.
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