Constant Speed Prop for O-360 - PA-18 Experimental

[Brian Erickson]

I am looking for a constant speed prop for a PA-18 with a 180hp O-360.

What are my options? (Prop part # I should be looking for)

Who has one for sale?

I am a new Supercub partner trying to get the project done.

Thank you very much in advance.

cheers!
Brian

[stewartb]

Whirl Wind Aviation 284 should be a good fit.

https://www.whirlwindaviation.com/props/284series.asp

[gpepperd]

I agree with Stewart.

[Brian Erickson]

Whirl Wind Aviation 284 should be a good fit.

https://www.whirlwindaviation.com/props/284series.asp

Are these better (or cheaper) than a comparable MT option?

[stewartb]

I have a 200A and it's a great match for my engine. Prop and governor from Whirl Wind will run you about $14k. I never considered MT so I have no idea what they have or what they charge. If you're genuinely interested in the pros and cons you should call Whirl Wind in Ohio and talk to them. You'll get an education about props. 440-275-1540

[skywagon8a]

Are these better (or cheaper) than a comparable MT option?

Just for your information the Whirlwind blades are made of carbon fiber and the MT blades are wood. If it makes a difference to you. I have the ground adjustable version of the Whirlwind and would use the constant speed version if there was room for the prop governor in my plane. It is a great prop out of the hole and in cruise.

[frequent_flyer]

I am looking for a constant speed prop for a PA-18 with a 180hp O-360.

What are my options? (Prop part # I should be looking for)

CubCrafters uses the Hartzell Trailblazer prop. Available sizes and part numbers as follows:

83″ 2-Blade Carbon Fiber Propeller, Standard Hub HC-C2YR-1N/NG8301
80″ 2-Blade Carbon Fiber Propeller, Standard Hub HC-C2YR-1N/NG8301-3
78″ 2-Blade Carbon Fiber Propeller, Standard Hub HC-C2YR-1N/NG8301-5
76″ 2-Blade Carbon Fiber Propeller, Standard Hub HC-C2YR-1N/NG8301-7


More details of this propeller family are available in TCDS P-920. - https://tinyurl.com/y4sy6thr

CubCrafters offers 80 inch and 83 versions on EX-3 and FX-3.

[stewartb]

Skywagon brings up a good point. Do you have space for the prop governor?

Honestly at 180hp I’d buy a Whirlwind or Sterna ground adjustable. Approx 30# difference.

[skywagon8a]

The ground adjustable is great, you can set it at any pitch you wish in a short amount of time. At a low pitch setting the take off and climb performance is fantastic, the cruise is not. OR when set at a high pitch for a great cruise speed, the takeoff performance is only OK. Trouble is you can't have both on one flight. I wish I could use a constant speed. Yes there is a weight difference which can be compensated for with a small amount of ballast aft.

[frequent_flyer]

The ground adjustable is great, you can set it at any pitch you wish in a short amount of time. At a low pitch setting the take off and climb performance is fantastic, the cruise is not. OR when set at a high pitch for a great cruise speed, the takeoff performance is only OK. Trouble is you can't have both on one flight. I wish I could use a constant speed. Yes there is a weight difference which can be compensated for with a small amount of ballast aft.

I'd hate to go back to a fixed pitch prop after getting used to the Trailblazer on my FX-3. 2700 rpm for takeoff then loaf along at 110 mph TAS at 2100 rpm burning 6.5 gph.

[stewartb]

Does your FX3 have the 393 motor? I know of 5 Carbon Cubs on my home field and all have fixed pitch, but I believe they’re using 340s. For me to advise anyone on a prop is based on my experience and my engine is stronger than most Cubs. And Greg P’s motor is stronger than mine! The prop needs to be coordinated for the engine output.

[frequent_flyer]

Does your FX3 have the 393 motor? I know of 5 Carbon Cubs on my home field and all have fixed pitch, but I believe they’re using 340s. For me to advise anyone on a prop is based on my experience and my engine is stronger than most Cubs. And Greg P’s motor is stronger than mine! The prop needs to be coordinated for the engine output.

All FX-3 use the CC363i which is a parallel valve IO-360 (In my case built by Lycoming). More info here:

http://cubcrafters.com/c/2017/11/cub...3i-power-plant

To the best of my knowledge the CC393i angle valve engine is only used on the XCub where it has the option of 2 blade or 3 blade Trailblazer prop.

[stewartb]

One of the features of Whirl Wind props is added blade twist near the hub to improve cooling and induction ram air. On the 200A prop it’s easy to see. I’m not as familiar with the 284, but even with their fixed and adjustable props many guys report temperature reductions.

Anyone know what Cub-appropriate MT and Hartzell props cost including the governor? Whirl Wind publishes their prices. I haven’t found pricing for the others.

[Brian Erickson]

Skywagon brings up a good point. Do you have space for the prop governor?

Honestly at 180hp I’d buy a Whirlwind or Sterna ground adjustable. Approx 30# difference.

No. I don’t have space, but we plan to make it with a stainless steel box cutout on the firewall.

Does the Wirlwind require a special governor?

[stewartb]

No. The governor they sell fits like any other. My IO-390 has a governor pad up front so no firewall issues. Skywagon’s is on the accessory case so it’s a tight space.

[skywagon8a]

No. I don’t have space, but we plan to make it with a stainless steel box cutout on the firewall.

Does the Wirlwind require a special governor?

Make certain there is no tubing behind the firewall which is in the way, as it is in my Javron fuselage. If yours is like the original PA-18 you should be OK to make the cutout.

[stewartb]

Some time back I saw a picture of a firewall relief that used a stainless steel pet bowl with a flange inset into the firewall. It looked like a great solution.

[eskimo77]

https://www.propilotsinc.com/pa-18-1...er-conversion/
This STC has an included box that attaches to the firewall for the needed rear governor clearance, but it's really tight if you have to make any adjustments without swinging the engine mount. When I installed it on a customer's cub I thought the cheap stainless pet dish would allow more room and be a lot easier than fabbing a special box.

[Mr. Ed]

Thread bump.

I’m shopping for a constant speed prop…experimental PA18, Titan IO-340, dual pMags, 9:1 pistons, 180hp. I was planning to go with Whirlwind but they no longer manufacture the 200A. Their only option is the 300 series which is designed for the RV folks. It’s a fast 3 bladed cruise prop. Not what I want.

The Hartzell Trailblazer is an option, I’ve heard good things.

MT is another option. I have an MT on my other plane.

I would like to know if anybody has real world experience with any other prop (that’s still in production and the company answers phone/email inquiries).

Thanks,

Mr. Ed

[stewartb]

I don’t think you have the torque to spin a 200A. Look into a 284. On the website, select the Legacy Prop directory.

https://m.whirlwindaviation.com/props/index-legacy.asp

[Brian Erickson]

We went with an MT:

MTV-15-B/203-58

[skywagon8a]

The Hartzell Trailblazer is an option, I’ve heard good things.

MT is another option. I have an MT on my other plane.

Before you make your decision, investigate the aerodynamic advantages of a scimitar shaped propeller blade. Just google "scimitar propeller advantages". Using todays CAD-CAM capabilities along with modern fabrication materials there have been a lot of advances in available propellers.

Scimitar designs have been around for a long time.

[Mr. Ed]

I don’t think you have the torque to spin a 200A. Look into a 284. On the website, select the Legacy Prop directory.

https://m.whirlwindaviation.com/props/index-legacy.asp

I’ve looked at the legacy section. At the top of that page it says that these props are no longer in production but they still sell parts and service. I called and spoke with them and was told the 300 series was my only option.

[Mr. Ed]

We went with an MT:

MTV-15-B/203-58

MT sales guy recommends the MTV-9 three bladed prop. He says it has a heavier hub. $19,200 plus shipping and crating ��! August 2023 delivery if ordered now. Ouch. The three bladed MT on my other plane doesn’t pull as hard as expected. Probably not enough hp. It’s on an O-360.

[stewartb]

I’ve looked at the legacy section. At the top of that page it says that these props are no longer in production but they still sell parts and service. I called and spoke with them and was told the 300 series was my only option.

Wow, I wasn’t aware. I guess RVs are the bigger market. Not many CS Cubs by comparison. If I didn’t have my WW I’d lean toward Hartzell.

[Mr. Ed]

We went with an MT:

MTV-15-B/203-58

Brian,

What engine is spinning your MTV-15B? I don’t have very radical pistons, at 9:1, but the guy at MT in FL recommended the 3 blade with bigger hub because of the engine. I’d rather have a 2 blade but don’t want to have any engine/prop combination issues.

When I bought my other MT they recommended the 2 blade. I went with a 3 blade because that plane is tail heavy and I didn’t want to take that much weight off the nose. The 3 blade was just a couple pounds lighter than my old 2 blade prop.

[spinner2]

I think with an O-340 you're a bit under-engined for a constant speed on a Cub. (And I say that as an O-340 owner with a Catto 42x84 prop installed.) But you may want to look at the Hartzell Trailblazer. I've got the 83" version ordered for an O-370. And for a governor I have an APS model PCU5000-X. The governor was $1888 delivered a few months ago and it weighs 2.18 pounds.

Hartzell has a deal going through the end of this year; $1000 off for members of the RAF.

[skywagon8a]

I’d rather have a 2 blade but don’t want to have any engine/prop combination issues.

If you have any reservations about compatibility consider a Balance Master. I just installed one and am very satisfied with a noticeable improvement of smoothness.
https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...e-Master-PIREP

I think with an O-340 you're a bit under-engined for a constant speed on a Cub.

Not so. Any engine with a constant speed will be able to put out full power on take off and then be an efficient cruise prop. There was a 0320 Cub here on ampibs which when it went to a constant speed prop jumped out of the water, a tremendous improvement over what it was before.

Also generally a two blade prop would be better/more efficient on the smaller engines. The third blade is primarily used to harness higher horsepower.

[stewartb]

I have a question about a 3-blade on a 4-cylinder. Is one blade aligned with TDC and the others 60° off? 3-blades on a 6-cylinder makes perfect sense. I’ve never been around a 3-blade with a 4-cylinder.

[Olibuilt]

The possibility to reverse pitch would be awesome.

Another option:

Electric adjustable pitch propeller hub.

I've contacted Airmaster a few years ago. Can't remember the price or weight.
https://www.propellor.com/ah-523



It can be use with Whirlwind blades https://whirlwindpropellers.com/aircraft/ and Sensenich blades https://www.sensenich.com/product-category/aircraft/

[StalledOut]

We have a c/s Hartzell on the cub, came off a cherokee 6 years ago and was cut down, rounded, cut some more, squared, rounded etc until it would spin up.
Maule spinner on it and heavier than most on the nose. It's been on the cub since 1983, 160HP 0-320. On floats - Edo 2000's - with one person and half tanks there is no slide, comes up out of the water and flies off. With a load there is a slide but it really comes off well and just climbs. Don't have to lower the nose, just hold back pressure and up you go. at 24 squared in calm air on floats the GPS usually shows 106-110. Figure 7.5 to 8 gallons/hr. Just got to make sure the oil temp is up so you can cycle the prop on cooler mornings. MT looks great and so much lighter if starting from scratch. The firewall has a box cut out for the governor, otherwise pretty stock certified cub.

[Mr. Ed]

Thanks for all the input folks. I’ve sent an inquiry to Hartzell about the Trailblazer. Waiting to hear what they have to say. I’m set up for a PCU5000X rear mounted governor so am sticking with a hydraulic prop…for now. The electric prop looks interesting though.

Doing the original wish list for this build I considered the MT reversible prop. Thought that would be very useful on floats. When I did my seaplane rating I talked to the DPE about it. He had flown with several guys in their aircraft with the reversible prop. He said none of them used that feature on floats because the loss of airflow over the rudder made maneuvering a bit too interesting/unpredictable. It sure looks handy in videos I’ve watched but it’s a hefty price to pay if usefulness is limited.

[frequent_flyer]

Thanks for all the input folks. I’ve sent an inquiry to Hartzell about the Trailblazer. Waiting to hear what they have to say. I’m set up for a PCU5000X rear mounted governor so am sticking with a hydraulic prop…for now.

You may want to research the minimum governing speed of the prop/governor combination you are considering. A high minimum governing speed may impact your engine out (but still turning) glide performance. The Trailblazer with Hartzel governor is full flat pitch (maximum drag) at best glide speed.

[Steve Pierce]

The ground adjustable Sensenich is a nice compromise. I can go 105 mph and in 10-15 minutes adjust to win a STOL contest.

[pa11driver]

I don’t have personal experience with the 3 blade mt on an 0-360 cub, but I do with a 2 blade on an 0470, and I’ve known of a three blade on a scout and a husky with 360’s. I would most definitely NOT put the 3 blade on your plane…. Personally I wouldn’t consider an mt at all. The 2 blade was underwhelming on the 470, and the scout and husky were both dogs with the 3 blades. I’d be looking at the hartzell.

[Brian Erickson]

Brian,

What engine is spinning your MTV-15B? I don’t have very radical pistons, at 9:1, but the guy at MT in FL recommended the 3 blade with bigger hub because of the engine. I’d rather have a 2 blade but don’t want to have any engine/prop combination issues.

When I bought my other MT they recommended the 2 blade. I went with a 3 blade because that plane is tail heavy and I didn’t want to take that much weight off the nose. The 3 blade was just a couple pounds lighter than my old 2 blade prop.

We have an O-360 spinning it.

[G44]

I don’t have personal experience with the 3 blade mt on an 0-360 cub, but I do with a 2 blade on an 0470, and I’ve known of a three blade on a scout and a husky with 360’s. I would most definitely NOT put the 3 blade on your plane…. Personally I wouldn’t consider an mt at all. The 2 blade was underwhelming on the 470, and the scout and husky were both dogs with the 3 blades. I’d be looking at the hartzell.

Parts of this I disagree with and parts I agree with.

I agree, I would not put a 3 blade MT or Hartzell on HOWEVER, I would put a 2 blade MT Ultra on, its an amazing prop. I run around with a bunch of other Husky’s and we have Original MT 2 blade, MT Ultra’s, Hartzell Trailblazers and metal Hartzell’s, the Ultra’s are the best performers in all categories followed by the Trailblazer and original 2 blade MT. For a 4 cylinder Lycoming powered Husky, Scout or Cub type airplane in my experience the MT Ultra is the best choice followed by the original 2 blade MT and Trailblazer.

[peterdillon]

Thanks for all the input folks. I’ve sent an inquiry to Hartzell about the Trailblazer. Waiting to hear what they have to say. I’m set up for a PCU5000X rear mounted governor so am sticking with a hydraulic prop…for now. The electric prop looks interesting though.

Doing the original wish list for this build I considered the MT reversible prop. Thought that would be very useful on floats. When I did my seaplane rating I talked to the DPE about it. He had flown with several guys in their aircraft with the reversible prop. He said none of them used that feature on floats because the loss of airflow over the rudder made maneuvering a bit too interesting/unpredictable. It sure looks handy in videos I’ve watched but it’s a hefty price to pay if usefulness is limited.

We have had the MT reversible for 10 years and its a game changer on floats. Come into the dock sideways in a any wind. Turning in very tight quarters. Pull forward into a beach and start up in forward and back out when you are ready. Heeled into shore just start up in reverse and just put her in drive and away you go. Taxiing in shallow water and see something coming that you dont like just back up. Landed a little long in tight quarters flip it into R. List goes on and on.