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Thread: Insurance for Legend Cub experimental student pilot?

  1. #1

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    Insurance for Legend Cub experimental student pilot?

    I'm looking to buy a used Legend Cub kit build experimental.

    I am working towards PPL and have about 35 hours total- most in a Citabria with a bit of J3 time.

    Is getting insurance going to be an issue?

  2. #2
    Utah-Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardiff Kook View Post
    I'm looking to buy a used Legend Cub kit build experimental.

    I am working towards PPL and have about 35 hours total- most in a Citabria with a bit of J3 time.

    Is getting insurance going to be an issue?
    Getting insurance is never a problem…. Finding affordable insurance is a different story. My buddy and I are new low timers, I got me certificate in September of 2020, he got his in February 2021, we have 90 and 150 hours respectively. All tailwheel time, did training in TW, insurance for hull and liability is over $6000

    IF I ending up building I will forego the hull on my own plane and just get liability. If the rates dipped down to below $2000 I would look at adding hull.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Utah-Jay View Post
    Getting insurance is never a problem….
    I wonder how you know that. Do you perhaps mean that getting insurance has never been a problem for you?

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    CubCruiser's Avatar
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    I suggest you contact Lee Blankenship at Lima Bravo Aviation. She’s a Legend owner and works most of the insurance for Legend folks, including the factory.
    Daryl Hickman, ATP, CFI, XYZ, PDQ
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    Utah-Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    I wonder how you know that. Do you perhaps mean that getting insurance has never been a problem for you?
    Ok, I am, healthy, 59 years old and never had an aviation claim. My point was, you can always get insurance IF you I are willing to pay stupid amounts

  6. #6

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    Easy there.
    Best thing is to just ask an insurer or broker.
    Liability is usually cheap. Hull, not so much. I went 20 years without any insurance - lucked out. Today I won't move without liability, and if an aircraft is worth more than 25 grand, I need a waiver or indemnification. I still don't carry hull on the J3.
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    Ha ha, meant to post it in the Insurance Changes thread where he said insurance was extortion.... My view remains the same ..... I’ll delete it here and move it...

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    As student pilot on experimental I was only able to get one company to quote through broker.

    For $80k of hull they want $8k/year. $2700 for only liability. This was Starr.

    Avemco said they don't insure students in experimental at all. They said IF I had my ticket w low hours hull would be $3,500 and liability alone $500/year. I am about 20 hrs from ticket.

    I was thinking I could requoute once I get ticket- but broker told me there is likely a significant early termination fee from carrier and it's not like car insurance where you switch anytime you like.






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    Last edited by Cardiff Kook; 08-06-2021 at 05:19 PM.

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    Utah-Jay's Avatar
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    You could gamble and go liability only.

    I am thinking of building a Bearhawk which would obviously be EAB and going liability only. If I build it, I reckon I can fix it.
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    Maybe it is time to drop back to a nice dirtbag J3. Make it cheap enough that you can forego hull, build time until you can get reasonable hull, then step up to a $100,000 airplane? My liability is under $300 each, and the Decathlon is another $900/year for hull.
    And one can find a low powered Citabria for under $30K.
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  11. #11
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Maybe it is time to drop back to a nice dirtbag J3. Make it cheap enough that you can forego hull, build time until you can get reasonable hull, then step up to a $100,000 airplane? My liability is under $300 each, and the Decathlon is another $900/year for hull.
    And one can find a low powered Citabria for under $30K.
    Or, finish the PPL in a Cessna 150 or Tomahawk. Sounds like getting the license done first will put you way ahead.
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Maybe it is time to drop back to a nice dirtbag J3. Make it cheap enough that you can forego hull, build time until you can get reasonable hull, then step up to a $100,000 airplane? My liability is under $300 each, and the Decathlon is another $900/year for hull.
    And one can find a low powered Citabria for under $30K.

    Yes. Everything in life is a tradeoff it seems.

    I could go certified.

    I could forgo hull and bite the bullet for a year and cough up $2700 for liability.

    $8k for hull seems unreasonable- unless I get caught in a hailstorm on the ground during the 3500 mile trip to bring the plane home.

    J3 proved very difficult to find/purchase, as you know from helping me in that process, and now that I've looked at newer planes not sure I can go back.

    I could also just fly club planes until I get my hours up- but where is the fun in that? I want to ride in style with my doors open like you! Life is short.

    By the way- why doesn't the club have a cub??? Is it dumb to put a plane in the club?
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  13. #13

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    It has a Super Cub.
    We thought about putting a J3 in, but couldn't see the economics. And note how fast they are tearing up the GCAA. Fixing a wing rib today!

    And now, just liability keeps me from instructing in 03 Hotel. Old insurer wants me to only instruct folks with 25 hrs in m/m, and Avemco can do it but only ten a year. One shot dual - $140/hr would go toward liability only insurance. Nobody will pay $240/hr for a J3 Cub. Therefore, I am out of business.
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  14. #14
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    The idea that anyone can get insurance in anything. anytime at any price is getting more problematic everyday. I can think of no good reason to insure a low time pilot in a high $ aircraft at any price. Even a premium of 50% of hull might be a crapshoot. Even pilots with moderate time will might only be insured when they get 25 hours in m/m with an instructor who has significant time in type.

    A few years ago a young fellow/new pp with 100+ hours wanted my Acroduster 2. He had cash on the table but I suggested he check on insurance. They wanted a Pitts S2 check out with min. of 10 hours ($420/hr around here) with 2 hours in the Acroduster just for liability. They wanted 25 hours in the airplane before they would sell him hull. BTW he only found one quote.

    That said, I suspect a Cub would be easier to insure?

    YMMV

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    Quote Originally Posted by n40ff View Post
    That said, I suspect a Cub would be easier to insure?
    Well a J-3 may be but my new FX-3 was not. Only one company would quote and it took a long email exchange to convince them to accept that my Super Cub and Husky time was sufficient and not to insist on 5 hours on type. I think what finally swung them was that they asked "Do you know any instructors with Super Cub experience" and I replied - "Yes, me". Never did quite understand the logic.

    Just before I took delivery I checked to be sure the insurance would be active and they casually told me that I had a deductible of 10% of hull value until phase 1 was complete.

    When renew came due I had about 120 hours on type and expected the premium would go down. It went up! They were still the only company willing to insure so I paid up and was glad to have coverage.

    I've had the PA-28 insured with one company for over 20 years. They wouldn't touch the FX-3.
    Last edited by frequent_flyer; 08-07-2021 at 09:56 PM. Reason: corrected 30% to 10%
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    Well a J-3 may be but my new FX-3 was not. Only one company would quote and it took a long email exchange to convince them to accept that my Super Cub and Husky time was sufficient and not to insist on 5 hours on type. I think what finally swung them was that they asked "Do you know any instructors with Super Cub experience" and I replied - "Yes, me". Never did quite understand the logic.

    Just before I took delivery I checked to be sure the insurance would be active and they casually told me that I had a deductible of 30% of hull value until phase 1 was complete.

    When renew came due I had about 120 hours on type and expected the premium would go down. It went up! They were still the only company willing to insure so I paid up and was glad to have coverage.

    I've had the PA-28 insured with one company for over 20 years. They wouldn't touch the FX-3.
    So are most these cc ex'a and fx's not carrying hull?

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    In some other place I suggested that these $300 K Cubs might be getting damaged too often by enthusiastic "off-airport" activity. I was shot down pretty quickly - I have no idea why they have hull damage problems, but they do.

    What about a nice GCAA? Like the one you are training in? I bet you could get reasonable premiums for one of those. I got the new rib on this afternoon, and fabric starts Monday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    I have no idea why they have hull damage problems, but they do.
    Well I searched the NTSB accident database for accidents involving CCX-2000, the official designation for the FX-3. The results, which are in the public domain, are quite informative.

    With the exception of one accident in which the aircraft hit trees with full flaps still extended during a missed approach all the others were loss of control on paved runways. Of course there may be many more accidents that didn't make the NTSB database.

    My speculation, and it is only speculation, is that many of these EX and FX are being purchased by pilots who would be more comfortable in a Cirrus and want to land the Carbon Cub the same way.
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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post

    What about a nice GCAA? Like the one you are training in? I bet you could get reasonable premiums for one of those. I got the new rib on this afternoon, and fabric starts Monday.
    Happy to hear about 01t.

    I don't think I would buy a GCAA when there is one in the club already that is pretty nice and has decent availability already.





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  20. #20
    n40ff's Avatar
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    Indeed insurance has certainly become more complicated and/or problematic. Gone are the days when a bunch of tail wheeime would make you insurable in almost anything except the small Pitts type biplanes which are a different animal. In my case flying sport biplanes, Pitts time use to count for everything else. That made sense IMO since the Pitts was as twitchy as they come. Not anymore. The insurance guys are sometimes not looking for time in make/model but time in a specific airplane with a quite high time CFI in type. It becomes almost impossible.

    As to Bob's theory of back country vs. normal operations f_f'ers research says much and echos my personal experience and also suggests that "time" isn't everything. I have enough time in Pitts Specials so that most insurance companies would glady insure me. That would actually be a mistake. Most of my time is off/on turf and it simply does not translate to hard surface. I know that and even though I have a lot of time, if i based a Pitts on hard surface I'd pretend I was starting over and work my way up to winds that are other than straight down the runway.

    I don't have that much Cub time but enough to make me believe that the same is true?

    One should know their own limits.......

  21. #21
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    When I bought my second airplane (first taildragger) in 1998, a C170, the insurance wanted a tailwheel endorsement & a 5 hour checkout.
    Third airplane was a C150/150TD...I had about 300 hours of 150 time & 1100 hours of 170 time, but no 150TD time.
    Insurance didn't require any checkout or anything.
    Third taildragger was a C180, insurance wanted "a checkout"-- no particular number of hours of dual, just a signoff,
    which a 180-owning CFI buddy of mine did for me over coffee.

    OTOH a guy I know owned a C180 for years, which he operated for several years & many hours on straight floats.
    Maybe 5 years ago he decided to put it on wheels. He had very little wheel time & none in the 180, or in any taildragger.
    His insurance required 25 hours of dual before they would cover him.
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  22. #22
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    My first airplane was a very low time Hawk XP on floats and I bought it before I had a PPL. I finished my PPL in a rented 150 and immediately started my float training in my own plane. 4 seats, high performance, constant speed, and floats in Alaska. A recipe for a high insurance quote. That was about 30 years ago but the new pilot in a nice airplane penalty applied even then. My initial year’s insurance was expensive and I rationalized it as part of the cost of buying my own airplane to learn in. It only hurts once.

  23. #23
    scout88305's Avatar
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    I was going to purchase a CC but even with 2500 hours flight time the premiums at 200,000 were way over double than my current Scout insured at the same 200k. I pay under $1500 full hull 0 deductible (avemco). Bellanca/Champion a/c have always been the most affordable planes to insure of my 6 planes I've owned. My 58 PA18-A was the most expensive valued at 80k. Rough math calculated a $40000 savings If I flew fully insured between the 2 different aircraft (CARBON CUB VS MY 8GCBC) owning for 20 years. Thats of course based on premiums remaining constant. I've seen a slight decline in my insurance expenses each year but at 56 years old I'm assuming that might not continue. I like to be insured, my vehicles are my house is. Airplanes are a huge investment. I cannot replace my plane at this stature in my life and financial situation going self insured. Food for thought
    Last edited by scout88305; 08-08-2021 at 12:09 PM.

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  24. #24

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    Insurance for Legend Cub experimental student pilot?

    Just insured my restored PA20.. went with Avemco again. At the rate I paid this year….They should recover what they paid me when it was totaled in just under five years…. Questions this time were different. Asked if I were a commercial fisherman. I’m like yeah. Herring and Salmon. Asked if I spot… Uh….no…..I use a boat… you don’t use your airplane for that? I can’t fish with an airplane. Floats? It’s ready for floats. When will you put those on? Never… the bay is to rough 99% of the time for floats. Skis? Yup will this winter if my premium doesn’t wipe out the ski budget. Even told the guy about off airport training with that guy out of Talkeetna, Don…skis with hIm too. Told him straight up I intended to use the aircraft off airport. Was pleased…didn’t have someone telling me what can and can not do….hull value at $85k just over $3,400 per year. 289 hours all tail wheel.



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  25. #25

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    At 80, I am getting pretty much what I need from Avemco. Just talked to a senior agent at Avemco - Bryon - who answered all my questions with what seemed like precise knowledge.

    They apparently are swamped with us old dudes - nobody else wants to insure us. In round numbers, my Decathlon with hull is $1200, my Cub liability only is $400, and the instructional cub with a ten student limit liability only is around a grand. No restrictions on "off airport" operations.

    As a data point, they are insisting on 25 tailwheel hours before beginning training in the Stearman, but then only five hours in type before solo. I am probably repeating myself, but you know how it is at 80. We only signed on to the instructional policy to do the Stearman student - the J3 is the very best trainer for the Stearman.

  26. #26
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Well heck Bob, guess I'll have to check Avemco out, flying 5 different exps. since 1988 and not spending one thin dime on insurance during all that time, I have been lately using my age (a spry 72) as my excuse. Those numbers you quote sound very reasonable, like what I'd be willing to cough up. I actually have the spare cash to afford insurance at this point, not like earlier! It's just a habit at this point not to have any. Anyone care to estimate how much money I've saved in being self insured for 33 years? Not saying it's a good idea and yes I know my gonads are on the chopping block by doing so, but it's a done deal now, with no incidents or regrets. All tail dragger, lots of off airport. I think maybe we self insured riff raff are too embarrassed to say we are, there may be more of us out there then is thought? My biggest need for insurance is when hangered at home, pretty sure the plane isn't covered. If a wildfire breaks out on the mountainside I live on, I have good homeowners insurance on all the structures, even the building I keep my Kubota in, though I have never asked my agent I doubt the plane is covered, so far so good. Even my lowly RANS S-7S is worth a fair bit of cash, these days, judging by what I see on the used market. I will call Avemco and ask for Byron.

  27. #27
    n40ff's Avatar
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    I was told my home owners would not cover an airplane (Erie).

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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    I will call Avemco and ask for Byron.
    I called Avemco for a quote on my CubCrafters FX-3. They would not quote for hull and refused to give any reason other than "underwriting policy". As a result I don't know if they had an aversion to my age (over 70), or to the FX-3, or something else. At that time I had about 120 hours FX-3.

    I renewed with Starr through NorthWest Insurance Group. I was happy to give them my business as they had been helpful in finding ways to apply my previous tail wheel experience, and waive some FX-3 time requirements, when the policy was first issued.

  29. #29

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    Starr does my CFI insurance. I feel comfortable with them.

    I too went 15 years without liability insurance. I was a bit of a jerk back then (ask my girlfriends) and had no thought about any social responsibility.

    Yeah, you need a million dollar policy if you have assets, since lawyers can eat up your retirement savings as fast as the medicos can - but if you don't have assets and hurt some poor kid who doesn't have health insurance, where will you be? Once we completely socialize medicine that won't be a problem, but until then . . .

    That's why auto insurance is mandatory in a lot of states.
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  30. #30
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Just talked to Avemco, told them I have 4200 hrs in type (RANS S-7 and S-7S, lots of off airport, based at two different 400' long mountain strips for the last 30 some years, and 72 years old, and ONLY $466.00 a year for a million dollar liability policy! I'm doing it, I never dreamed it'd be that low (I hope Avemco doesn't read this) I would have guessed MUCH more. I cannot write the check out soon enough. Now I can finally look down on the self insured types, now that I'm no longer one.

    Thanks for getting me off dead center on this subject Bob! To my surprise, they told me that they could not offer insurance for it parked in the hangar, unless I also had hull coverage. So, I have left a message with my Farm Bureau insurance agent to see if the plane is covered under my home owner's policy (pretty sure/positive it isn't), and if so, how much to make it so.

    Best of all, I can now complain about those pesky STOL pilots raising my insurance rates.

  31. #31

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    Actually, a million liability was under $300 right up until two years ago. I have a multi-plane discount, so mine on the Cub is a bit less than yours. I will look it up . . .

    Yeah, $357 per year.

    Hull is the big deal, and lately Cub hull has taken a giant leap. One local J3 got in a $45k ground loop! And that was on a paved runway - think of extracting a quarter million dollar Cub off a sand bar! Our premiums have to pay for that, and yield some profit for the underwriter.
    Last edited by bob turner; 10-11-2021 at 11:20 AM.

  32. #32
    40m's Avatar
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    When and if I choose to self insure it would only apply to hull coverage I can't imagine not carrying liability.

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!
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  33. #33
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40m View Post
    When and if I choose to self insure it would only apply to hull coverage I can't imagine not carrying liability.
    Me neither!
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