Scrappy at OshKosh?

stewartb said:

Those guys aren’t who they are because they’re successful, they’re successful because of who they are. Big difference.

Those ribs and slats are incredible.

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Very well said.

does anyone have links of it flying? seems to be hard to find via youtube...I'm guessing he will drop some videos after the show

farm_boy252 said:

does anyone have links of it flying? seems to be hard to find via youtube...I'm guessing he will drop some videos after the show

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I have not found any. I would not expect Patey to post any until they fit the time line of his build video series. I am surprised that it was not captured landing at Oshkosh. In one of the interview videos he says the KOSH tower controller asked him if he was Scrappy before giving him his landing clearance. That should have got someone outside with a camera even if it was raining.

Unless you were tracking him, waiting and monitoring the tower…

Personally I think he discovered many things that need to be changed and he would rather not publicise it. Just a guess.




Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers… [emoji849]

We wa.ked around Scrappy at Oshkosh. I watched some of the videos. My take away is Mike's way of narrating, his enthusiasm and just shear energy. He has inspired so many and to see him light up with each person he interacts with is a testament to who he is. He was surrounded by people and met and talked to all of them. We need more ambassadors in my opinion.

Crash said:

The flap/slat arrangement is interesting to be sure but could really only be done on a plane as heavy and complex as scrappy. Lots of moving parts and complex linkages. The other major issue I found in Mike's reasoning is that he designed it so the trim setting isn't changed between normal and slow flight. His reasoning is that you're making the tail fight the wing and negate some of the wing's lift. Well that's all well and good but if you're configured for landing you are very much negating the wing's lift in order to descend so who cares if the tail is pushing downward? It's a very much over-engineered plane on so many level.

Not saying it isn't cool or interesting. I'm glad someone out there is throwing gobs of money to answer the questions nobody asked.

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Think again! I present to you the Zlin Norden. Check out at 4:50 for the retractable slats and double slotted flaps in this video. https://youtu.be/5Olmfj7O4Ec

And here is some insane in flight footage with a 360 cam showing off the slats and flaps. Just epic! This one weighs 830 pounds as you see it and the electric retractable slats weigh 22 pounds. https://fb.watch/75CqVyGYDr/

It was fun to see Scrappy finished. I had many late night calls from Mike and his painter. He used Stewart Systems on the entire project and the Silver Metallic can be a bit tricky. Nicely done!
Marty57

Marty I wondered about the paint process he was using and watched the videos closely to see if I could get any clues. Only short clips of spraying what looked like clear coat. Can you tell us what he was using? Ekopoly clear?

The clear is our EkoPoly Premium. The orange and silver metallic are also EkoPoly Premium. Tail feathers are double covered, same paint. They did a nice job on the paint.
Marty57

Flying to Oshkosh.

Is there any video of it landing? Maybe I’ve missed it but looks like the landings have been edited out.

Game changers.

This might come as a surprise but slats have been around for quite some time and in regular use on cub type aircraft for 20 years or more. Not exactly a "game changer"

Good to see you plugging the Zlin Norden again. Is there any thread you haven't posted about the Norden in?

Slats have been around since about 1918. Google Handley Paige Aircraft for their history. Simultaneously developed in Germany but that guy didn’t get credit.

Yes, I’m well aware. But electric retractable slats haven’t been done on a light GA aircraft until the Norden and Scrappy and I think they’ll bring forth changes and improvements from other OEM designs moving forward.

Electric retractable slats are definitely a game changer. Who wouldn’t want to change 12% of the wing area on the fly? Slats are a genius way of increasing wing area by chord alone which enables shorter wing spans that are more conducive to quicker roll rates and response, let alone the physical width reduction for getting into tight strips.

The double retractable slat is pretty cool. If you are looking for cutting edge I would say this wing is pretty much on top of the pile. The good thing is you can pull everything back in and get some speed back. Great work.
DENNY

Helio Courier…

AKjurnees said:

Helio Courier…

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A legendary airplane and way ahead of its time, but electric retractable slats are better in my opinion.

Not clear to me how electrically driven, pilot controlled, slats are inherently better than automatic slats. Of course, if they are electrically operated, it's not a huge challenge to make them automatic based on alpha. Perhaps partial auto extension for stall prevention and full extension pilot controlled is the way to go.

My favorite STOL aircraft as a teen was the Westland Lysander.

jetcat11 said:

A legendary airplane and way ahead of its time, but electric retractable slats are better in my opinion.

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Why do you believe electric retractable slats are better than automatic slats which open and close as needed when the AoA calls for them?

Make mine passive. The wing knows better than I when it needs slats or when they can remain closed. Works like a charm. At least Scrappy couples the slats to the flaps so deployment comes in one familiar pilot input. I'm not sure that's the ideal but maybe the lesser of two evils when considering uncoupling them. But Scrappy's slats morph the wing considerably. That's very different than we mere mortals are familiar with.

Still like the PC-6-B2H2


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Next will be a selectable Alpha that drives the wing configuration and tail trim.

Gary

skywagon8a said:

Why do you believe electric retractable slats are better than automatic slats which open and close as needed when the AoA calls for them?

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There are a lot of reasons I can think of, but this photo of a CRJ 700 speed card does a great job of explaining why slats on demand can truly change your operating envelope and enhance safety in the backcountry.

At 75,000 pounds you can see how impactful flaps 0 to flaps 1 is when talking about the minimum maneuvering speed and final approach speed. Flaps 0 to flaps 1 means the slats move out 20 degrees, while the flaps stay retracted. We have a resulting 16 knot reduction in minimum maneuvering speed and a 16 knot speed reduction for final approach speed. This is truly game changing!

Electric slats allow you to place them far enough ahead, and below the leading edge of the wing to maximize their coefficient of lift increase on the airfoil. The Norden has a slight advantage over the Helio in this regard.

In speaking again about the Norden, deploying the electric slats on final approach means you can approach at a slower airspeed by the physical increase in wing area but more importantly a flat AOA while doing so with a windscreen that was designed around this. Slower approach speeds with better visibility is a huge win for off airport operations. The slats also perfectly counter balance the forward pitching moment created by the massive double slotted flaps creating an impressive “umbrella” looking effect when everything is fully deployed. The beautiful part about this increase in wing area is increased margin above a maneuvering stall speed as well as preventing a stall spin scenario in a no go around situation.

The reason I’m not a fan of the spring slats are because of their variability in operation. See this video here. https://youtu.be/tKCRuNYDOh4

Can you imagine if an airliner’s various slat panels were bouncing in and out on takeoff and climb out or worse yet on landing? Those numbers are only valid with the slats in a fixed position. Your stall margin would not be dependable.

Another reason for electric retractable slats is that you can configure them exactly how you’d like per flight conditions. The CRJ 700 uses 20 degree slats for takeoff and 25 degree slats for landing. If you found yourself in a gusty, crosswind condition a no slat takeoff may be desirable.

The Norden’s slats are controlled via push buttons on the stick where aileron trim might be located. Pushing the right button in deploys them with a maximum deployment interval of around 3 seconds. This could become an issue when trying to trim on a go around but I personally love they are disconnected from the flaps.

Some of the negatives are complexity in design and added weight, but I think those are more than made up in increased safety and enhanced operating envelope.

How many hours do you have in your Norden now?

"The reason I’m not a fan of the spring slats"
Jet cat , I am not sure what you mean by "spring slats "?
As far as I know there are no springs on any Helio slats.
Doug

"The wing knows better than I when it needs slats or when they can remain closed"
Stewartb , I am with you on this .
I have been flying my plane ,which has automatic slats, for over 20 years ., and for now I'll take slats that do their own thing .
But if Mike lets me fly Scrappy for a 100 hours or so I might change my mind8)
Doug

jetcat11 said:

Can you imagine if an airliner’s various slat panels were bouncing in and out on takeoff and climb out or worse yet on landing?

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Perhaps you are unaware that auto slat extension is implemented on several, perhaps many, airliners for stall protection. They don't bounce in and out.

frequent_flyer said:

Perhaps you are unaware that auto slat extension is implemented on several, perhaps many, airliners for stall protection. They don't bounce in and out.

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I did not know that, but the reason they don’t bounce in and out I would imagine is because they are still electrically deployed and not spring loaded like the Helio’s are.

The wing does not know better which is why it’s such an advantage to deploy them in certain situations where they wouldn’t deploy otherwise.

Helio slats are not spring loaded- totally free to extend/retract on their own.