Scrappy at OshKosh?

ak49flyer said:

Helio slats are not spring loaded- totally free to extend/retract on their own.

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When you retract them physically why don’t they stay in place on the ground then?

ak49flyer said:

Helio slats are not spring loaded- totally free to extend/retract on their own.

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You’re right, gravity is what pulls them down duh!

Helio slats are on a kind of arched track where gravity pulls them out and down on the ground. That's why they don't stay retracted on the ground. Besides, if anything you want a spring pushing them out instead of pulling them in. Air pressure can retract them.

Speaking directly about the Norden and Scrappy...Scrappy's slat and flap arrangement is a coupled system where both the slats and flaps were designed to compliment each other and reduce the pitching moment of the plane between high speed and low speed flight. The Norden, well it doesn't have slotted flaps and the leading edge slats are a simple single vane slat so no real new engineering there. The electric control is a secondary issue and a point of failure. If the electric control is such a ground breaking thing then why didn't Mike Patey make his slats independently controlled rather than slaved to the flaps?

Personally I'd rather have the automatic slats. There's a few situations where you don't think you'll need the slats but then you crank too hard and stall the wing. Moose stall/spin is a classic example. Besides that, it's just another control in the cockpit of what is supposed to be a simple machine to fly. We're not flying big jets here, they're 2 seater piston planes.

I'm just saying that comparing the level of engineering in Scrappy's flap/slat system to the simple slat with an electric motor in the Zlin Norden is a non-starter. They are not at all the same thing.

There's a few situations where you don't think you'll need the slats but then you crank too hard and stall the wing. Moose stall/spin is a classic example.

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I agree with the rest of what you wrote, but for any configuration there is a loss of control boundary. Fly a certain configuration for a while and there will be a tendency to fly close to that boundary. Exceed it, and stuff happens. So it's not so much about equipment providing the safety margin, as the operator of that equipment.

Crash said:

Helio slats are on a kind of arched track where gravity pulls them out and down on the ground. That's why they don't stay retracted on the ground. Besides, if anything you want a spring pushing them out instead of pulling them in. Air pressure can retract them.

Speaking directly about the Norden and Scrappy...Scrappy's slat and flap arrangement is a coupled system where both the slats and flaps were designed to compliment each other and reduce the pitching moment of the plane between high speed and low speed flight. The Norden, well it doesn't have slotted flaps and the leading edge slats are a simple single vane slat so no real new engineering there. The electric control is a secondary issue and a point of failure. If the electric control is such a ground breaking thing then why didn't Mike Patey make his slats independently controlled rather than slaved to the flaps?

Personally I'd rather have the automatic slats. There's a few situations where you don't think you'll need the slats but then you crank too hard and stall the wing. Moose stall/spin is a classic example. Besides that, it's just another control in the cockpit of what is supposed to be a simple machine to fly. We're not flying big jets here, they're 2 seater piston planes.

I'm just saying that comparing the level of engineering in Scrappy's flap/slat system to the simple slat with an electric motor in the Zlin Norden is a non-starter. They are not at all the same thing.

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Maybe you need to take a closer look at the Norden instead of being so eager to dismiss it. The Norden has double slotted flaps that account for about 70% of the trailing edge. Zlin could have engineered the slats and flaps to deploy congruently but the Norden doesn’t need it. It literally needs no pitch trim change in any configuration, slats out flaps up, slats in flaps out. A single slat is sufficient to counter balance the overall smaller flap area in comparison to Scrappy and keeps the airflow attached well enough in comparison to the extra cost and weight a double slat system would require. A perk of the double slat system is complete airflow attachment at insane AOA, yes.

It’s my understanding that Mike needed the double slat to counter the massive forward pitching moment created by his massive double slotted flaps as well as move the center of lift while reducing pilot workload negating any negative pitch moments when both are deployed together.

It’s one electric motor with both slats interconnected so if the motor fails the slats fail in the position they were in. I don’t see how this is vastly different than Scrappy’s implementation. Zlin has already tested the slats continuously for over 50 hours equating to over 20,000 cycles with zero issues whatsoever.

I personally don’t see why this would be too difficult to control and be mindful of as the slats position will always be in your view from the cockpit but I understand what you’re saying.

It’s not a non starter, you’re just not looking closely enough at the Norden.

With that said, these two aircraft are very different. One weighs 850 pounds and the other 2500. They have very different wing planforms and needs based off their varying flap area pitching moments and center of lift shifts, but the Norden is a product the masses can buy and it’s semi affordable. Scrapppy is a one off with essentially an unlimited budget that would be hard to mass produce.

The point is, Mike is a genius and his work has me in awe, but Zlin has also created something pretty special on the very light side of the STOL marketplace and should be applauded, not dismissed because they live on the other side of the pond.

Jetcat ,You can reach out the window and grab hold of my slat in flight , mine are like those on the Helio, then slow down , when it comes out you can not hold it in and when out you can not pull it in when slow , speed up and they go in and you can not stop them . This is do to ,when slow and a higher AOA , the high pressure air under the wing going to the low pressure area above the wing by way of the slot that the slat makes when out . When on the ground and there is a 10 or 15 mph wind it's fun to have someone to push one in , they can but will be surprised at how hard they push and that it comes back out , fast !
Awhile back Jerry Burr posted a picture of some yarn under a slated wing that shows this air flow .
A slated wing only gets more lift by letting the wing fly at a higher AOA without stalling . As far as I can tell they do nothing at , as you say , "flatter AOA"
So I guess saying the pilot has no control is wrong because its all about AOA and that is for sure pilot controllable .
I wonder if Scrappy's double slatted wing is acting like both a slat and a Kruger flap ?? I'll know more after Mike drops it off at the Wilson world HQ's for my blessing . Can someone tell me what Scrappys wing span is ? My hangar door is only 40 ft .8)

Jetcat,
This is an example of a high performance airplane with automatic slats like the Helio. Remember, the primary purpose of the slats is to help in keeping the airflow attached to the trailing edge of the wing at high angles of attack. Thus reducing the stall speed of the wing. Airplanes like the F-86 are involved in maneuvers which take them in and out of high angle of attack situations on a moments notice. The last thing a pilot ought to be doing is selecting slats out or not.



As Mike stated, he wanted the center of lift to remain in one location during flap deployment. Since flap deployment moves the center of lift aft and the slats move the center of lift forward, he joined the two to enable a zero trim change situation. What he has built ought to be referred to as a high lift system rather than slats or flaps.

Are the flaps and slats interconnected on your Norden or independently operated?

I have heard several stories of electric flaps on Cessnas getting stuck and sometimes not at an opportune time.

Maybe we will start seeing this Norden at all the get togethers like Carbon Cubs. Or maybe Cub Crafters should take a look, might be the next big thing to halp them upsell to a newer model.

skywagon8a said:

Jetcat,
This is an example of a high performance airplane with automatic slats like the Helio. Remember, the primary purpose of the slats is to help in keeping the airflow attached to the trailing edge of the wing at high angles of attack. Thus reducing the stall speed of the wing. Airplanes like the F-86 are involved in maneuvers which take them in and out of high angle of attack situations on a moments notice. The last thing a pilot ought to be doing is selecting slats out or not.

As Mike stated, he wanted the center of lift to remain in one location during flap deployment. Since flap deployment moves the center of lift aft and the slats move the center of lift forward, he joined the two to enable a zero trim change situation. What he has built ought to be referred to as a high lift system rather than slats or flaps.

Are the flaps and slats interconnected on your Norden or independently operated?

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That is very cool, I had no idea the F-86 had automatic slats! Yes, you’re exactly right but the center of lift changes more dramatically with Scrappy based off the slats deploying irrespective of the flaps or vice versa.

The Norden’s pitch changes are almost negligible which doesn’t require them to be interlinked together. I addressed that earlier in a post above. I disagree and think there’s nothing wrong with a pilot manipulating slats in flight but I understand what you’re saying.

How can you say what Mike has created is a high lift system vs the Norden’s slats or flaps. You’re kidding right? If the Norden isn’t a high lift system I don’t know what is. That 29’ wing is squeezing every last ounce of lift it possibly can and dramatically increasing the coefficient of lift with leading edge slats, double slotted flaps, and drooped tips. Again, placement of the slats is crucial and the Norden has nailed it.

I feel like I’m just repeating myself here but you can’t watch these videos and say this isn’t a game changing high lift system that renders a Carbon Cub’s wing much inferior. But please, watch the videos this time.

Start at 1:58 here. https://fb.watch/7aiBB4JF4E/

Start at 4:50 here. https://youtu.be/5Olmfj7O4Ec

Jetcat11, I’m slow to pick things up. Do you own a Norden or are waiting on delivery or do you broker them? Where are you located?

Many of us here are hard headed and need to see it’s performance in person and against similar cub style planes. The two previous generation slated Zlins that I’ve seen in person were underwhelming to watch against similar competition. Could have been the plane, could have been the pilots. There is or was one in AK, however, that performed well at Valdez.

Here’s the point…..there are now more STOL and or backcountry competitions around the US than ever and there’s no excuse to not bring one out. Enter the Norden against the Rans, Highlanders and Carbon Cubs of the world. Airline the test pilot over or put someone in it that will show its true capabilities. Until that’s done, everyone here will just keep trying to poke holes in it.

KevinJ said:

Jetcat11, I’m slow to pick things up. Do you own a Norden or are waiting on delivery or do you broker them? Where are you located?

Many of us here are hard headed and need see it’s performance in person and against similar cub style planes. The two previous generation slated Zlins that I’ve seen in person were underwhelming to watch against similar competition. Could have been the plane, could have been the pilots. There is or was one in AK, however, that performed well at Valdez.

Here’s the point…..there are now more STOL and or backcountry competitions around the US than there ever has been before and there’s no excuse to not bring one out. Enter the Norden against the Rans, Highlanders and Carbon Cubs of the world. Airline the test pilot over or put someone in it that will show its true capabilities. Until that’s done, everyone here will just keep trying to poke holes in it.

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I’m simply a huge fan of the airplane, located in Dallas. Yes, that must have been Gary Green at Valdez with the 115HP Shock Cub. He had the shortest landing of the event in 2019 at 39’. His Norden is actually the first coming soon to the US as the grey and orange color scheme linked above.

I completely agree with you. The good thing is that it’s coming and there is an EPeX300Ti Norden that should be hard to beat in the right hands.

With that said, I do feel as though this video showcases it’s operating envelope and what it’s able to do in the right hands on 140HP. But I personally don’t think a STOL aircraft has to compete to show it’s worthy of consideration, but that’s beside the point. We’ll see when it actually gets here, but I’ve clearly already made up my mind as I’ve seen and heard enough.

https://youtu.be/S-pLdKLJZuI

The Norden looks awesome.

However, I blocked jetcatt11 long ago due to non-stop paid advertisement he/she/it blasts out on every available forum. It is too much, and too obvious.

Which slats have you flown yourself? I’m very limited to my own plane’s slats and several hours as passenger in a few Helios. Both are very different from airliners who use pilot controlled slats and procedures and for a bush plane I’ll take Helio or Mackey slats every time, because bush flying doesn’t always lend itself to procedures. If I need to power up and do a 180° turn to escape a canyon or a cloud I don’t need to flip a switch to gain the safety margin my slats provide. They’re always there for me. I get the idea that you aren’t very familiar with flying slats or flying real backcountry conditions so trying to reason is wasted words. Brochures and videos don’t impress me nearly as much as what I see with my own eyes and feel with my own hands. My plane carries a big load at silly slow speeds with a safety margin I continue to appreciate.

Do you have any PIC experience in slat airplanes? Any passenger experience with a qualified pilot of a slat-equipped plane like a Helio?

stewartb said:

Which slats have you flown yourself? I’m very limited to my own plane’s slats and several hours as passenger in a few Helios. Both are very different from airliners who use pilot controlled slats and procedures and for a bush plane I’ll take Helio or Mackey slats every time, because bush flying doesn’t always lend itself to procedures. If I need to power up and do a 180° turn to escape a canyon or a cloud I don’t need to flip a switch to gain the safety margin my slats provide. They’re always there for me. I get the idea that you aren’t very familiar with flying slats or flying real backcountry conditions so trying to reason is wasted words. Brochures and videos don’t impress me nearly as much as what I see with my own eyes and feel with my own hands. My plane carries a big load at silly slow speeds with a safety margin I continue to appreciate.

Do you have any PIC experience in slat airplanes? Any passenger experience with a qualified pilot of a slat-equipped plane like a Helio?

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Block me all you want Colorado Cub, I literally don’t care. I’m so tired of telling people I don’t work for Zlin or SportAir. I blast the airplane on every outlet I can because it takes three times before y’all ACTUALLY look at the airplane. My entire objective in this is to raise awareness of another potential aircraft one might purchase and hopefully elicit other OEM’s to try and bring a wing like this in the future.

My slat experience is every time I go to work flying the CRJ 700 and I’ve flown the Shock Cub. Again, how hard is it to be conscious of where the slats are when they’re in plain sight all of the time? Most of the time when you’re slowing the slats will be fully extended anyways so if you need to power up and do a 180 degree turn they’re already there for you.

Steve, if the electric motor fails both slats being interconnected fail in the position they were in. If they fail fully deployed it’s not near as large of an issue if your flaps were to fail fully deployed while trying to climb with rising terrain nearby as you can still bring the flaps all the way up and remove all of that drag and still climb effectively with the drag penalty created by the slats alone.

Colorado-Cub said:

The Norden looks awesome.

However, I blocked jetcatt11 long ago due to non-stop paid advertisement he/she/it blasts out on every available forum. It is too much, and too obvious.

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100% with you on that one. Kinda gets old seeing every topic derailed into talk about the Norden.

If the airplane is worth looking at, people will look at it. From what I've seen the planes that are most heavily marketed are not always the best.

Especially a thread about Mike Patey’s true innovations. Let’s dismiss the noise and focus on the topic.

To get the discussion back on track I'll say this about Scrappy: It's just too much stuff going on to be able to trickle down.

Now I know everyone wants the double slats and double slotted flaps and all that mess in the wing of their plane but how is it going to fit into the wing of a cub? Even say a backcountry cub with a larger wing and higher weight you're still adding a lot of parts to the plane. I would hazard a guess that even changing the stamped aluminum ribs for the CNC milled ribs would double the weight of the wing and then you're talking about adding the linkages and slats themselves and it would be easily 150lbs added to the plane. At what point would that wing configuration make up for its own added weight?

Advances in aviation have to start somewhere. Skup reminded me yesterday that he mocked up a double slat on my wings during assembly and asked Why Not? I had forgotten all about that.

jetcat11 said:

How can you say what Mike has created is a high lift system vs the Norden’s slats or flaps. You’re kidding right? If the Norden isn’t a high lift system I don’t know what is.

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You did not understand my meaning. Slats do one thing to the airflow and flaps do another, independently of each other. Mike's slats and flaps are bussed together to act as one unit. They can not be operated independently of each other. Thus I'm labeling them as a high lift system.

skywagon8a said:

You did not understand my meaning. Slats do one thing to the airflow and flaps do another, independently of each other. Mike's slats and flaps are bussed together to act as one unit. They can not be operated independently of each other. Thus I'm labeling them as a high lift system.

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My bad. I personally would prefer to have them operate independent of each other but in Scrappy’s case it’s ideal.

I have been watching Mike’s videos and that wonderful wing and looking at my Dornier Do-27 and wishing I could build a wing like that! Just what the Do needs. It’s fixed slats are ridiculously draggy but with retractable slats like those on Scrappy and enhanced flaps, that 6 seat Do would be wonderful like a Helio


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What about non-retractable double slats for light simple Cub types? Seems like someone will try it, at least for competition. I'm excited to hear what kind of performance Mike finds in testing.

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Why not just curve the airfoil like Ryan did with the Navion wing, at least towards the tips? Added flaps and gear down lowered the stall to the low 50's.

Gary

We need a set of retractable slats for cubs. I would be happy to pay the weight increase for the top and bottom end performance.
DENNY

Low 50s? Try mid teens! The sight picture is very different and the available LZs are much improved.

If you’re looking for speed? Buy a TBM!

Frankly I’m shocked, given what I’ve read on the interwebs today, that Mike Patey and the US Government both haven’t scrapped their plans and invested in Savage Nordens.

Helio slats on a Cub - why not?

Gary

Because Mackey slats achieve most of anything anyone wants and any speed advantage of Helio slats is insignificant?

stewartb said:

Because Mackey slats achieve most of anything anyone wants and any speed advantage of Helio slats is insignificant?

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Remove yours and see what the airspeed does then report?

Gary

It is not nice to speak about the Norden in this section since here you are debating about Mike Patey's beautiful plane. But it has to be added to the equation before to kill them as usual, that their retractable slats vs the fix slats give a big advantage in terms of cruise speed to their plane and this for some could be interesting. Not forgetting that they can fly slower than the competitors even using a smaller wing. From their last news on instagram channel : 75% power Rotax 915 engine, 22" tires, fix pitch prop, 1800 ft, 23°celsius, 6,34 gallons/h, IAS 100 kts, TAS 105 kts (and they can go faster setting the prop just for cruise speed and using the negative flap setting). Would be very nice to know which is the cruise speed of the contenders in this nice market using a similar power and fix slats? According to them they already sold more than 50 planes in 19 different Countries even before to have officially released the final performance and datas and in my opinion they don't care too much about what "detractors" or "avid fanatics" say about them around the world. But off course I could be wrong...I am pretty sure that this time other manufacturers will try to do the same soon or later. And again then will be interesting to see at the final cost of this operation in terms of final price and empty weight. Exciting times in front for sure.