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Thread: Scrappy at OshKosh?

  1. #81

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    I have been watching Mike’s videos and that wonderful wing and looking at my Dornier Do-27 and wishing I could build a wing like that! Just what the Do needs. It’s fixed slats are ridiculously draggy but with retractable slats like those on Scrappy and enhanced flaps, that 6 seat Do would be wonderful like a Helio


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  2. #82
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    What about non-retractable double slats for light simple Cub types? Seems like someone will try it, at least for competition. I'm excited to hear what kind of performance Mike finds in testing.

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  3. #83
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    Why not just curve the airfoil like Ryan did with the Navion wing, at least towards the tips? Added flaps and gear down lowered the stall to the low 50's.

    Gary

  4. #84

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    We need a set of retractable slats for cubs. I would be happy to pay the weight increase for the top and bottom end performance.
    DENNY
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  5. #85
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    Low 50s? Try mid teens! The sight picture is very different and the available LZs are much improved.

    If you’re looking for speed? Buy a TBM!
    Last edited by stewartb; 08-04-2021 at 11:25 PM.

  6. #86
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    Frankly I’m shocked, given what I’ve read on the interwebs today, that Mike Patey and the US Government both haven’t scrapped their plans and invested in Savage Nordens.
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  7. #87
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    Helio slats on a Cub - why not?

    Gary

  8. #88
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    Because Mackey slats achieve most of anything anyone wants and any speed advantage of Helio slats is insignificant?
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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Because Mackey slats achieve most of anything anyone wants and any speed advantage of Helio slats is insignificant?
    Remove yours and see what the airspeed does then report?

    Gary

  10. #90
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    It is not nice to speak about the Norden in this section since here you are debating about Mike Patey's beautiful plane. But it has to be added to the equation before to kill them as usual, that their retractable slats vs the fix slats give a big advantage in terms of cruise speed to their plane and this for some could be interesting. Not forgetting that they can fly slower than the competitors even using a smaller wing. From their last news on instagram channel : 75% power Rotax 915 engine, 22" tires, fix pitch prop, 1800 ft, 23°celsius, 6,34 gallons/h, IAS 100 kts, TAS 105 kts (and they can go faster setting the prop just for cruise speed and using the negative flap setting). Would be very nice to know which is the cruise speed of the contenders in this nice market using a similar power and fix slats? According to them they already sold more than 50 planes in 19 different Countries even before to have officially released the final performance and datas and in my opinion they don't care too much about what "detractors" or "avid fanatics" say about them around the world. But off course I could be wrong...I am pretty sure that this time other manufacturers will try to do the same soon or later. And again then will be interesting to see at the final cost of this operation in terms of final price and empty weight. Exciting times in front for sure.
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  11. #91
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    The A-4 Skyhawk had leading edge slats/flaps that were uncontrolled and raised/lowered by aerodynamic forces (AOA/ airspeed) The wing was the size of a postage stamp and the original engines not that powerful, thrust/weight, yet the wing generated significant lift.
    Marine Corps Aviation since 1966
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  12. #92

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    In the big airplanes, they are interconnected. At least for most jets. C-5 is that way, B727 was that way. I think B737 is that way

  13. #93

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    The complex makeup of Scrappy's slats make them impossible to work only by aerodynamic pressure. Slats increase lift with little increase of pitching moment, but with Scrappy's 2 slats and the movement forward, it probably increases nose up pitching force due to the center of lift moving forward. Flaps cause a down pitching moment. The 2 together might help neutralize pitching moment change.

    What I would have liked to see is experimenting with the newer high lift airfoils. SAE College aero competitions were filled with entries using very high lift, low drag airfoils and I would have liked to see that transfer to GA airplanes.
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  14. #94

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    Just take this wing and scale it up to 32’ in wingspan. That would give you around 165 sq ft clean and 185 dirty. That would be perfect for a Cub. https://fb.watch/7bV6dOIx-W/

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetcat11 View Post
    Just take this wing and scale it up to 32’ in wingspan. That would give you around 165 sq ft clean and 185 dirty. That would be perfect for a Cub. https://fb.watch/7bV6dOIx-W/
    Is not this one, the same wing that Mike P. commented with his brother (very positively) on their facebook page at the time of the first reveal a couple of years ago??
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  16. #96
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    Norden shills are multiplying!
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  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab0ngcd View Post
    In the big airplanes, they are interconnected. At least for most jets. C-5 is that way, B727 was that way. I think B737 is that way
    The CRJ is a bit of both. Initially moving the flap lever from 0 to 1 means slats 0-20 degrees only which gives you the individual control part. At flap lever 30 the flaps have gone to 30 degrees and the slats now to 25 degrees. In a go around situation it’s slam the detent lever back to 8, meaning flaps 8 degrees and slats back to 20.
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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
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    Norden shills are multiplying!
    No...don't worry...my average is about 1.7 post per year and for this year I am already done...See you in 2022
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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selvaoscura View Post
    No...don't worry...my average is about 1.7 post per year and for this year I am already done...See you in 2022

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  20. #100

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    For those not on Facebook, this seems to be the wing y’all are describing?

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  21. #101
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    That is a interesting looking wing I'd love to fly it
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  22. #102

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    Well, the beauty of competition! One of these days, Scrappy, a light stock cub, and a Norden will show up to a STOL contest and we will cut the BS.

  23. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by aflyer View Post
    Well, the beauty of competition! One of these days, Scrappy, a light stock cub, and a Norden will show up to a STOL contest and we will cut the BS.
    True, but why does it have to be a competition? Mike has even said Scrappy isn’t a competition STOL aircraft but one with insane utility and destined to become his “family suburban.”

    I’ve felt this way a lot lately as more and more aircraft are mounting the EPeX300Ti on the front of their airplanes. With these insane power to weight ratios it starts to mask the aerodynamic qualities and now everyone in Highlanders, RANS S-6, Super Cubs, and a Norden can all take off in under 50ft. But what does that prove? That 1200 pounds of thrust does what you would expect it to on light STOL aircraft haha.

    Here’s a view of that wing clean vs dirty inside the cockpit.

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  24. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by aflyer View Post
    Well, the beauty of competition! One of these days, Scrappy, a light stock cub, and a Norden will show up to a STOL contest and we will cut the BS.
    Agree, let's cut the BS. The contest shall be as follows:

    Make one measured distance takeoff
    Fly 10 hours without refueling
    Make one measured distance landing

    Failure to fly 10 hours shall be disqualifying

    Why can't people grasp the idea that Scrappy was not designed to be a STOL contest winner?

  25. #105
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    Maybe because even Mike has no idea what the purpose of the plane will be until he's done.

    I guarantee Mike will fly scrappy in a contest. If he wanted a "family suburban" he could have built something with more than 2 seats.

  26. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post

    Why can't people grasp the idea that Scrappy was not designed to be a STOL contest winner?
    Why can’t people grasp the idea that Scrappy is first and foremost designed to get clicks and views and to keep a prominent influencer in the headlines? Any actual performance is purely secondary to perpetuating the social media frenzy...
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  27. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    Agree, let's cut the BS. The contest shall be as follows:

    Make one measured distance takeoff
    Fly 10 hours without refueling
    Make one measured distance landing

    Failure to fly 10 hours shall be disqualifying
    But you might get the shortest landing
    Regards, Charlie
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  28. #108

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    Jetcat, when do you take delivery? I’d love to run over and talk you out of a ride.
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  29. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    Jetcat, when do you take delivery? I’d love to run over and talk you out of a ride.
    In my dreams. Gary Green from Alaska will be taking delivery of the first one and stopping in various places on his way back so maybe I can convince him to stop in Dallas.

  30. #110
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    So you're not getting a Norden and you haven't flown in one yet?
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  31. #111

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    I build so I don't watch much youtube.....so I am a distant observer with a some apathy regarding Scrappy. I've wondered if the change in mission, lack of data on performance could be a result of underwhelming results. And thats OK. Many of us are experimental!!! We learn tons when we don't get the results we hope for. Mike will give us transparent report either way.

    Failure must be OK. If we cant fail we won't risk or try. "The Man in the Arena"
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  32. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcone1381 View Post
    I've wondered if the change in mission, lack of data on performance could be a result of underwhelming results.
    Mike has already stated in his videos that the prop is really limiting the performance. If pitched for truck dragging static thrust it severely limits the maximum speed. When pitched for the trip to Oshkosh I got the impression that the takeoff performance was not impressive and the cruise speed was still limited to about 120 mph. He says he's working on a constant speed prop.

    I'm thinking the airboat prop was an interesting mistake but hopefully it gave data that will be useful in designing the CS prop.
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  33. #113
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    A constant speed running a composite blade modeled after the Hamilton Standard AG-100 or 200 would be cool to see. That prop is a stump puller, and should give decent enough cruise speeds.
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  34. #114

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    What I see as the issue with the airboat prop blades is they do not have enough twist to operate at higher speeds. Not sure how many flats boats cruise at 150 in the marshes such that blades are optimized for that.
    Regards, Charlie
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  35. #115
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    Being a ground adjustable you can "twist" the blade however you want. The issue that I was predicting with that prop is the airfoil design. The wide chord paddle type prop is designed to accelerate hard but airboats top out pretty slow, normally less than 50mph so the blade design is based on those parameters. Moving to an actual aviation prop, especially a constant speed is a good choice. Not sure why he didn't do that originally. With the wide power band of that 8 cylinder it really necessitates a constant speed.

    It'll be interesting to see what prop he goes with. Did he say he was working with Whirlwind (constant speed company, not ground adjustable)? I'm surprised he isn't going with an MT as they are well known for building custom application constant speed props like this one would need.
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  36. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetcat11 View Post
    In my dreams. Gary Green from Alaska will be taking delivery of the first one and stopping in various places on his way back so maybe I can convince him to stop in Dallas.
    We’ll darn. Run up to the STOL deal in Gainesville late September and I’ll give you a go in a legacy cub. Not many bells and whistles but they work pretty well.

    I bet Bill Canino (maybe a dealer?) will have a shock cub at the Arkanstol deal the following weekend. It sure flys slow and climbs straight up. Ole Bill was parked next to me there last year and was concerned when I started to hand prop my cub. He shook his head wondering why anybody would do something dangerous like that
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  37. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    Agree, let's cut the BS. The contest shall be as follows:

    Make one measured distance takeoff
    Fly 10 hours without refueling
    Make one measured distance landing

    Failure to fly 10 hours shall be disqualifying

    Why can't people grasp the idea that Scrappy was not designed to be a STOL contest winner?
    I'd be all over a contest like that: says the guy with a 37 gallon capacity and as little as a 2.7 GPH fuel burn. After the ten hour mark, let's then pull out our ebikes and have a 20 mile race. What's that, don't carry a bike, guess I win!

    Seriously, if enough guys flew with bikes, we could have a combo STOL event, and then a timed event including getting the bike out and road worthy, and then a completed distance course (with maybe some trail riding to boot) and then a return to the plane, and the clock would only stop after the bike was back in the plane and secured, and the take off made. Someone set this all up and let me know. I am VERY curious to see what kind of "electric motorcycles" Mike is planning on using, I doubt they will be pedal assited "ebikes", but full blown e motorcycles. I expect him to double my wildest expectation.
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  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post

    Seriously, if enough guys flew with bikes, we could have a combo STOL event, and then a timed event including getting the bike out and road worthy, and then a completed distance course (with maybe some trail riding to boot) and then a return to the plane, and the clock would only stop after the bike was back in the plane and secured, and the take off made.
    I like that idea except I'm still in the non e-bike camp. So maybe we end up with a whole new form of complications/classes/handicaps, whatever.

    Courierguy, you almost sold me on e-bikes, but I had a folding pocket llama that weighed 28 pounds. I'm still pretty good on plain pedals at that weight.

  39. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    I like that idea except I'm still in the non e-bike camp. So maybe we end up with a whole new form of complications/classes/handicaps, whatever.

    Courierguy, you almost sold me on e-bikes, but I had a folding pocket llama that weighed 28 pounds. I'm still pretty good on plain pedals at that weight.
    I first flew with a regular ( 2, non e assisted) Montagues for 15 + years, and had a lot of fun and got a lot of utility out of them. When the e conversions came along 3-4 years ago I first assumed they'd be a impractical mod for my setup, carrying it in a RANS S-7S for hecks sake, not a Maule or a 182.....but to my continued astonishment, the additional weight has more then "paid for itself" in even greater utility after landing. Hot day, uphill ride, packing up to 14 gallons of mogas, (folding 2 wheel trailer and fuel bladder) is no sweat, literally. I agree though as I am a keep it simple and light as possible in general. Since getting it, I looked real hard at other areas to drop some weight, and did so but yeah it's all a compromise.
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  40. #120

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    You guys keep talking about bikes in airplanes. I'm starting to catch on. The contest idea.....its just helping me see that there are ways to make it quick and easy to hop out of the aircraft and go.

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