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Thread: Scrappy at OshKosh?

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    Scrappy at OshKosh?

    I read on another forum that Mike Patey and Scrappy arrived at Osh yesterday. Is that true? Is it flying? Has anything been said about what it weighs? I'm not a Youtube follower so I don't stay up to date on such things.

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    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Yes, he flew there. A couple videos show up on Facebook


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    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    No other details I’ve seen


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    I've been following the build videos. Airworthiness was issued back in May but could not find any evidence of phase 1 flight test on any of the ADS-B trackers. He's done well to keep it under wraps this long. I think the big reveal was planned for today.

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    I just checked adsbexhange.com again at it does shows some tracks. Taxi at Spanish Fork 7/24/21; pattern work at Spanish Fork 7/25/21; depart towards Oshkosh 7/26/21; and Appleton to Oshkosh today 7/27/21 landing at 12:05 UTC.

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    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    I've been following the build videos. Airworthiness was issued back in May but could not find any evidence of phase 1 flight test on any of the ADS-B trackers. He's done well to keep it under wraps this long. I think the big reveal was planned for today.
    Doesn’t it have to be completed to get an airworthiness?


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    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    It may be the leading edge of technology but its on the trailing edge in looks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Doesn’t it have to be completed to get an airworthiness?
    Yes, I believe so. I have seen no claim that the build videos represent real time progress.
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    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub junkie View Post
    It may be the leading edge of technology but its on the trailing edge in looks.
    Lot of hype. I'd like to see how well it makes use of all that engine. Something tells me it's a heavy pig and won't out-perform a normal Carbon Cub. In fact, I think Mike said the same thing at one point.
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    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Lot of hype. I'd like to see how well it makes use of all that engine. Something tells me it's a heavy pig and won't out-perform a normal Carbon Cub. In fact, I think Mike said the same thing at one point.
    That’s what sells carbon cubs. Super light weight, lots of HP. It’s a cool build but there’s no way you’re going to get the performance and light weight fun flying feel out of a heavy airplane. Sort of like a 53 180 vs 1980 185. Guess which one is more fun to fly


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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Lot of hype. I'd like to see how well it makes use of all that engine. Something tells me it's a heavy pig and won't out-perform a normal Carbon Cub. In fact, I think Mike said the same thing at one point.
    I also wonder about the weight. I was thinking it started out being a purpose built stol drag machine and now has pivoted to a search and rescue plane? Neat exercise however. He has more talent in one hair as I do so in my whole body!

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    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    The Zenith CH 701 just got better looking.
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    I don't see anything to criticize. It isn't my cup of tea but I have great respect for the imagination and determination it took to be sitting where it is today. I'm sure there were failures and frustrations kept private but for what's been publicly shared? Very impressive. Bravo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I don't see anything to criticize.
    I watched all the build videos and it was only close to the most recent one that I thought - how can that work? He's using flexible solar panels as lifting surfaces (outboard half of each wing). I'm expecting them to flex, crack the circuit tracks, and perhaps fail structurally. Perhaps in a later video he'll explain why there was no need to be concerned.
    Last edited by frequent_flyer; 07-27-2021 at 03:38 PM.
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    According to one of the latest osh videos, empty weight is slightly under 2500lbs.

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    I wonder how the wing loading and power loading compare to an average Cub? Probably closer than not. I hope he enjoys it.

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    On his YouTube channel, I once tried to get a "guess the weight of the finished Scrappy" thread going on, but it didn't happen. My best guess was 2200 pounds at least. At some point, I don't care how many lightning holes and trick machined out lightened parts there is, there is still a huge amount of "stuff" there. I too think the solar array was over the top, (no pun intended) those flexi panels are most likely Chinese made, and I know from accounts from fellow ebikers who have used them on their long distance bikes, they are subject to failure over time, both structural and electrical. He is somewhat cursed by the skill, funds, and knowledge to make about anything possible! Hands down, he deserves the top award at Oshkosh this year.
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    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	56935The plane is amazing and I can’t wait to see how it performs. He called it a 2500 pound cub. He said he’s got almost 60 hours on it now but has not used the nitrous or pushed what the wing is capable of. He said it might be possible that the angle of attack he can get to in slow flight would be so steep, that if things started to go south, it might roll over on its back. Also said that he is planning on putting a constant speed prop on it. He is a stand up guy and lit right up when my 5 year old with a scrappy shirt on wanted to talk to him and take a couple pictures. What a cool build and a cooler guy.
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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I wonder why no LE slats or wing section extended over the fuselage? It has the potential as a blown lifting surface providing the tail isn't disturbed. Just envious of that beautiful airplane.

    Gary
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    Quote Originally Posted by a.crane View Post
    He said it might be possible that the angle of attack he can get to in slow flight would be so steep, that if things started to go south, it might roll over on its back.
    Interesting. I had wondered about loss of control in a max performance takeoff. The landing gear wings and the central flap will produce a lot of lift long before the ailerons have any authority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    I watched all the build videos and it was only close to the most recent one that I thought - how can that work? He's using flexible solar panels as lifting surfaces (outboard half of each wing). I'm expecting them to flex, crack the circuit tracks, and perhaps fail structurally. Perhaps in a later video he'll explain why there was no need to be concerned.
    Mike Patey perfectly exemplifies the true spirit of innovation. Mike is fully aware of the potential issues of those solar cells mechanical limits. that’s why they are removable, both electrically and mechanically. and as a true inventor, rather than backing away from the problem, he designs it, builds it, tests it, breaks it, builds it again. just like his intro says. and as a good innovator, he starts simple - try it as is before inventing new panels. then he will iterate the design a dozen times and make them better and better. And at the end, when he has a fully debugged solution, he will have generated a new set of design ideas to solar cells on an airplane wing, so the rest of us can try it.

    same for a lot of other things on this plane. it’s a flying proof of concept, or more accurately, a proof of a bunch of concepts. if you go back to the early Scrappy videos, he explicitly states that this is not a practical airplane. he wanted to try ideas out. comparing scrappy to any other plane really has no meaning. he never intended for it to compete with anything. it’s an embodiment of his incredible brain and energy to execute.

    Bravo Mike.
    Last edited by arborite; 07-28-2021 at 07:53 AM.
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  23. #23

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    Not a YouTube watcher but this clip got my attention. Interesting that flap and slat actuation is connected. The next big thing? Time will tell but nobody will know until somebody dreams it up and tries it.

    Is the change from “Bush” plane to “SAR” plane an indication that it loiters better than it does STOL? Like I said, interesting. In any case I look forward to watching it fly.

    https://youtu.be/JcckHHiYkL0
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  24. #24
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    The flap/slat arrangement is interesting to be sure but could really only be done on a plane as heavy and complex as scrappy. Lots of moving parts and complex linkages. The other major issue I found in Mike's reasoning is that he designed it so the trim setting isn't changed between normal and slow flight. His reasoning is that you're making the tail fight the wing and negate some of the wing's lift. Well that's all well and good but if you're configured for landing you are very much negating the wing's lift in order to descend so who cares if the tail is pushing downward? It's a very much over-engineered plane on so many level.

    Not saying it isn't cool or interesting. I'm glad someone out there is throwing gobs of money to answer the questions nobody asked.
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  25. #25

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    he never intended for it to compete with anything.
    I thought the first video about Scrappy was of Mark and Mike starting a friendly competition to build 'Cubs' and see if lightweight (Mark) or massive engine and fancy (Mike) did better...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Not saying it isn't cool or interesting. I'm glad someone out there is throwing gobs of money to answer the questions nobody asked.
    That was my take. More interested in seeing guys with limited means eking out GA fun than very rich throwing money at wild hairs.
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180_jeff View Post
    That was my take. More interested in seeing guys with limited means eking out GA fun than very rich throwing money at wild hairs.
    By the same token, if it were not for the very rich throwing money at wild hairs like the Patey brothers are doing, where would the guys with limited means be able to weed out ideas they would otherwise not be able to include in their thought processes? I for one appreciate what they are doing as I am fascinated with complex "Rube Goldberg" gadgets which accomplish a mission. I could never be able to consider acquiring a small percentage of their airplane making toys, yet I love seeing the toys in action.
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    Those guys aren’t who they are because they’re successful, they’re successful because of who they are. Big difference.

    Those ribs and slats are incredible.
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    Yeah, kind of an age-old situation in GA (and other endeavors).
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    I for one am thankful that he is willing and able to do these endeavors and then be willing to share it.Thank God for the wealthy in this country.


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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Those guys aren’t who they are because they’re successful, they’re successful because of who they are. Big difference.

    Those ribs and slats are incredible.
    Very well said.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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  32. #32

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    does anyone have links of it flying? seems to be hard to find via youtube...I'm guessing he will drop some videos after the show

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    Quote Originally Posted by farm_boy252 View Post
    does anyone have links of it flying? seems to be hard to find via youtube...I'm guessing he will drop some videos after the show
    I have not found any. I would not expect Patey to post any until they fit the time line of his build video series. I am surprised that it was not captured landing at Oshkosh. In one of the interview videos he says the KOSH tower controller asked him if he was Scrappy before giving him his landing clearance. That should have got someone outside with a camera even if it was raining.

  34. #34
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Scrappy at OshKosh?

    Unless you were tracking him, waiting and monitoring the tower…

    Personally I think he discovered many things that need to be changed and he would rather not publicise it. Just a guess.

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  35. #35
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    We wa.ked around Scrappy at Oshkosh. I watched some of the videos. My take away is Mike's way of narrating, his enthusiasm and just shear energy. He has inspired so many and to see him light up with each person he interacts with is a testament to who he is. He was surrounded by people and met and talked to all of them. We need more ambassadors in my opinion.
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  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    The flap/slat arrangement is interesting to be sure but could really only be done on a plane as heavy and complex as scrappy. Lots of moving parts and complex linkages. The other major issue I found in Mike's reasoning is that he designed it so the trim setting isn't changed between normal and slow flight. His reasoning is that you're making the tail fight the wing and negate some of the wing's lift. Well that's all well and good but if you're configured for landing you are very much negating the wing's lift in order to descend so who cares if the tail is pushing downward? It's a very much over-engineered plane on so many level.

    Not saying it isn't cool or interesting. I'm glad someone out there is throwing gobs of money to answer the questions nobody asked.
    Think again! I present to you the Zlin Norden. Check out at 4:50 for the retractable slats and double slotted flaps in this video. https://youtu.be/5Olmfj7O4Ec

    And here is some insane in flight footage with a 360 cam showing off the slats and flaps. Just epic! This one weighs 830 pounds as you see it and the electric retractable slats weigh 22 pounds. https://fb.watch/75CqVyGYDr/

  37. #37
    Marty57's Avatar
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    It was fun to see Scrappy finished. I had many late night calls from Mike and his painter. He used Stewart Systems on the entire project and the Silver Metallic can be a bit tricky. Nicely done!
    Marty57
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  38. #38
    Bearhawk Builder's Avatar
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    Marty I wondered about the paint process he was using and watched the videos closely to see if I could get any clues. Only short clips of spraying what looked like clear coat. Can you tell us what he was using? Ekopoly clear?

  39. #39
    Marty57's Avatar
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    The clear is our EkoPoly Premium. The orange and silver metallic are also EkoPoly Premium. Tail feathers are double covered, same paint. They did a nice job on the paint.
    Marty57
    Last edited by Marty57; 08-01-2021 at 06:28 PM.
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  40. #40
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Flying to Oshkosh.
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