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Thread: 1st Cub- 100 HP Legend Texas Sport Experimental or 100 HP Cubcrafter Sport Cub

  1. #1

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    1st Cub- 100 HP Legend Texas Sport Experimental or 100 HP Cubcrafter Sport Cub

    I'm overthinking a decision again

    I am very low time pilot. I've done my PPL training in a Citabria 160 and a J3. I bought a hangar last year- and want a plane to put into it.

    I have my heart set on a low horsepower (115 or less) cub. I want a low power plane for the same reason I decided to do my PPL in a tailwheel- someone told me it would make me a better pilot (whether or not that is true is not what I want to debate here

    I started looking for a J3, then PA-11, then at PA-18-95 (which I thought was going to be in my hangar but I missed it.) It's been alot of work- and tring to buy a 80 year old plane there is alot to figure out (damage, title, maintenance, STC, A/D, etc.) One thing was I wanted a cream puff- something that had been refurbished in the last ten years. Given this Bob turner said maybe I should look at a Legend Cub since I wanted something nice/new with little headache. Seemed like a good idea (though it doubled my budget.)

    So I found a nice 2009 Legend Texas Sport Cub with an 0200. I liked it, but it was experimental. I say "but it was experimental" because I knew nothing about experimentals and they kind of scared me- mostly fear of the unknown. What were my fears:
    1. Safety- was this built right?
    2. Resale- how hard is it going to be to sell this plane if I'm the 3rd owner?
    3. Insurance for a new pilot- can I get insurance
    4. Will the A&P on my field work on it? - I read somewhere that some shops wont' touch them due to liability.
    5. Instruction- which I guess is being sorted out by FAA right now

    Added note to original post: This was a home built kit aircraft- not a factory build.



    As I was lementing the experimental stuff- some people pointed out all the benefits- no red tape, work on it yourself, no STC's, etc. It would be nice to be able to work on the plane a bit, but realistically I don't think I have time to both fly and learn to work on a plane right now- so I probably would hand most stuff off to the pros.

    So now that my budget doubled- I said, "what's a bit more" and I found the Cubrafters Sports Cub. Its a TC aircraft, and costs alot more than the experimental- about 50-60% more, but it's a cubcrafter factory build so.... it's real nice.

    Both the legend experiemental and the CC Sport Cub are about 12 years old with less than 500 hours.

    My mission is mostly just becoming a better pilot, and having fun within 200 miles of my house- I can rent for things other than that. I want to focus on flying- not on maintenance.

    So- Legend Texas Cub 0200 Experimental or similiarly equipped Cubcrafters Sports Cub 0200 (or maybe 115.) Both are LSA.

    In order of importance to me:
    1. Safety
    2. Joy to fly
    3. Not outgrowing it in 3 years
    4. Low headache to get things done(maintenance, FAA, etc.)
    5. Resale value and ability to sell with ease- is an experimental going to be hard to sell? Is the more expensive plane going to drop in value more with time?
    6. Maintenance/upkeep costs
    7 Insurance costs
    8. Upfront cost

    Input appreciated.

    (I am going to try to go fly both so that may make the decision for me.)

    Added note to original post: This was a home built kit aircraft- not a factory build.
    Last edited by Cardiff Kook; 07-26-2021 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Imporotant info missing

  2. #2
    txpacer's Avatar
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    Flying-wise, you probably would not be able to tell the difference. They each are wider than a standard J-3. The big difference is going to be parts availability. The Legend uses a lot of standard Cub parts. Being experimental, you could build a new elevator or rudder from a Javron or Wag Aero kit, if you wanted to. With the Sport Cub, you'll be stuck buying parts from Cubcrafters, and Cubcrafters only. If it is SLSA, there may be factory restrictions on who can repair it. Many SLSA aircraft get converted to ELSA for this reason.

    I think some of the early Sport Cubs had problems with breaking tail wires, because of the way they combined the attach fitting and elevator hinge (to save weight).

    We used to own an experimental Legend, it was a good little airplane. A friend of ours has it now, and she loves it. The left side door is pretty cool.
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  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post
    Flying-wise, you probably would not be able to tell the difference. They each are wider than a standard J-3. The big difference is going to be parts availability. The Legend uses a lot of standard Cub parts. Being experimental, you could build a new elevator or rudder from a Javron or Wag Aero kit, if you wanted to. With the Sport Cub, you'll be stuck buying parts from Cubcrafters, and Cubcrafters only. If it is SLSA, there may be factory restrictions on who can repair it. Many SLSA aircraft get converted to ELSA for this reason.

    I think some of the early Sport Cubs had problems with breaking tail wires, because of the way they combined the attach fitting and elevator hinge (to save weight).

    We used to own an experimental Legend, it was a good little airplane. A friend of ours has it now, and she loves it. The left side door is pretty cool.
    Thanks!

    The spare parts thing is something to consider!

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    Don’t fear experimental. A factory built Legend or Sport Cub is newer and safer than 99% of the equivalent original Cubs you’ll find. A properly assembled homebuilt kit plane is right there as well.

    When shopping for insurance make sure to identify that you’re considering a factory or kit built Cub replica. That’s very different than a garage built one-off experiment.
    Last edited by stewartb; 07-26-2021 at 10:12 AM.
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  5. #5
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Cardiff,

    You left your location from your profile.....add it on.

    Before you purchase a plane you should consider finding an A&P that you can work with. From my perspective - there are experimental airplanes I would not touch (as an a&P) and others that would be ok.

    Tim
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  6. #6
    Richgj3's Avatar
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    I owned the first Legend delivered, for over seven years. Great airplane. I instructed a friend in a Sport Cub. I’m a fan of the Legend. Obviously the Texas Sport is a “home built” but many were essentially constructed in the factory for/by the owner in the builder assist program. Remember, ELSA has no 51% rule requirement. If the one you’re looking at was built that way, I’d consider it a factory build. If not, it could be just as good.

    I may be biased but I’d go the Legend route over a Sport Cub every time

    1. hardly any service bulletins on Legend. Over 30 on Sport Cubs

    2. Back seat on Sport Cub very uncomfortable. Legend very comfortable

    3. Legend is truly 3” inches wider. Sport Cub is 3” wider at the mid point between the upper and lower longerons only

    4. Parts Availability as noted above. Every part except the fuselage can be sourced on the open market for the Legend. Maybe even the fuselage now a days.

    5. Legend has heel brakes. Sport Cub has toe brakes. Your choice there. Neither one is a preference for me

    6. Sport Cubs only used the O-200A. Legend switched to O-200D a while back. Don’t know if that matters. I would not buy the Legend if it has the Jabiru motor. Personal opinion.

    5. Both ELSA and SLSA get condition inspections, not annual inspections. Any A&P can do them. You can do them after completing the proper courses. I never did, just had an A&P buddy work with me.

    6. Legends can go on floats if you ever want to. Legends have more approved props, I think. Doors on both sides.

    And, it looks like a J3 or PA11 depending on the cowl and flys just like a PA18-95

    Also, if you intend to fly Sport Pilot, be sure the Texas Sport is certified ELSA, not EAB with a higher gross weight. The Texas Sport could be certified as EAB at 1750lbs GW. Same airplane, different paperwork. Of course when I had my Legend I would NEVER fly it over the 1320 gross weight but it was nice to know it was tested to 1750.

    Rich
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  7. #7

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    I updated the original post but this is a home built aircraft. Not a factory build.

    I appreciate the input.

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    To help you with the reluctance about a homebuilt? The airframe, spars, ribs, pulleys, cables, wires, etc on the Legend are 12 years old. Many parts of a J-3 may be approaching 80 years old. Legend is famous for duplicating Cubs so a good Cub mechanic should be totally comfortable inspecting it. Don't blow it off without taking a good look at it.

  9. #9

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    Vast difference between home built and kit built, and even more difference between, say, an RV where you actually have to do stuff, and a Legend with factory welded fuselage etc. and factory assembled ribs on factory drilled spars.

    A j3 was factory built 75 years ago, and since then ALL of them have been disassembled to kits and re-assembled.
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  10. #10
    Scouter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Vast difference between home built and kit built, and even more difference between, say, an RV where you actually have to do stuff, and a Legend with factory welded fuselage etc. and factory assembled ribs on factory drilled spars.

    A j3 was factory built 75 years ago, and since then ALL of them have been disassembled to kits and re-assembled.
    I would check the empty wts closely. I remember the early legends were heavier than the SC
    Also i would guess the cylinders are still problematic on that 0200? I had Constant cyl issues
    I put 300 hrs on my sport cub, they donít give up much if anything to a 150 Supercub
    jim
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  11. #11

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    Thanks for all the info.

    One of the planes I am looking at has 115 HP upgrade done by a shop on the 0200. Thoughts?

  12. #12
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    No such ting as far as I know as a 115 horse upgrade. You can get more horsepower out of an O200 by either raising the redline to 3100rpm or installing high compression pistons. Both have drawbacks.

    Any idea what they did to "upgrade" to 115hp?

  13. #13
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    This is interesting (http://www.continental.aero/engines/200.aspx). Raising the compression from 7:1 to 8.5:1 in the O-200-D doesn't change the rated power?

    Gary

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    I will get more details but I believe it's high compression 3 ring pistons with a sensenic adjustabe prop.

    Does that make sense?

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardiff Kook View Post
    I will get more details but I believe it's high compression 3 ring pistons with a sensenic adjustabe prop.

    Does that make sense?
    Is that on an experimental or an LSA? If it is an S-LSA, you canít legally make those kinds of changes. If experimental, well, itís experimental, so experiment to your hearts content.


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  16. #16
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    This is interesting (http://www.continental.aero/engines/200.aspx). Raising the compression from 7:1 to 8.5:1 in the O-200-D doesn't change the rated power?

    Gary
    Not 100% necessarily no. Notice that they don't show it raising the power. It probably would raise power if other things were changed like valve lift/duration or RPM limit. It would be interesting to see how it swings a prop. The one thing that compression can increase is torque big time. JimC can probably fill in here better.

    If the pistons were changed out for aftermarket high compression pistons watch out for blowby. These 3 ring pistons are known for having pretty high oil consumption in the small Continentals.
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    It's an S-LSA converted to E-LSA.

    The engine work was done a decade ago and logs show a leaky cylinder 5 years ago that was and that's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Is that on an experimental or an LSA? If it is an S-LSA, you can’t legally make those kinds of changes. If experimental, well, it’s experimental, so experiment to your hearts content.


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  18. #18
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    From JimC Post #63 here> https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...-vs-7440/page2 O-200 compression compared

    Gary
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    From JimC Post #63 here> https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...-vs-7440/page2 O-200 compression compared

    Gary
    What is the 0200 9.5 compared to 0200.

    Is that the high pressure pistons we are talking about?

    Pardon my ignorance. I'm mechanically inept(ish)

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  20. #20
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Eyeballed the O-200 9.5 compression is about 110 HP at 2750; the stock O-200 7:1 is about 100. I'll "assume" 8.5:1 could be a little over half the difference or about 105-7 at 2750. Of course if turned faster than rated rpm (2750) power increases for each compression assuming intake and exhaust flow or fuel burn timing aren't limiting.

    However.......improving volumetric efficiency (the flow of air through the engine from intake to exhaust; it can exceed 100% of the engine's displacement under certain conditions) through better intake flow - intake and exhaust port shape and roughness - cam shape plus valve lift and timing - ignition timing - and better exhaust flow can alter torque which then determines power (power is generally considered measured torque x RPM/5252). No guarantees or anything free - more engine heat and oil consumption are possible as noted.

    You're not ignorant if you're curious. Have fun with your choice of aircraft.

    Gary
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    Doug Budd's Avatar
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    I have a 775lb exp.cub I had a stock 0-200 on it and was building a o-200 with 85hp pistons and a after market cam . I ordered a catto prop 78-37 . The prop came before I got the engine built so I tried it on the stock engine. 2000rpm on take off 2100 wide open. Not good. Got the engine built and the modified engine turns it fine. 25 ish on take off and 27 ish wide open. My altitude is 4000 ft . With the 8.5-1 pistons it burned A LOT of oil until it broke in then it was normal .


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    Richgj3's Avatar
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    My Legend had a what is listed as a climb prop for a C150. 69/48 I think. It was the only metal prop Legend could certify in the early days, being that it was approved on the O-200 on the C150 which made it easy for them. It would turn 2500 on the stock O-200 on take off and would cruise at 95 mph at 2450. It would almost make it to redline level WOT. Tach, not airspeed.

    Rich

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    Also, if you intend to fly Sport Pilot, be sure the Texas Sport is certified ELSA, not EAB with a higher gross weight. The Texas Sport could be certified as EAB at 1750lbs GW. Same airplane, different paperwork. Of course when I had my Legend I would NEVER fly it over the 1320 gross weight but it was nice to know it was tested to 1750.

    Rich[/QUOTE]

    The Texas sport cub can be certified to 1750 gw? Could I do that once bought?

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  24. #24
    Richgj3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardiff Kook View Post
    Also, if you intend to fly Sport Pilot, be sure the Texas Sport is certified ELSA, not EAB with a higher gross weight. The Texas Sport could be certified as EAB at 1750lbs GW. Same airplane, different paperwork. Of course when I had my Legend I would NEVER fly it over the 1320 gross weight but it was nice to know it was tested to 1750.

    Rich
    The Texas sport cub can be certified to 1750 gw? Could I do that once bought?

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

    I don’t think so, but that’s a question for a DAR. Or even the Legend Factory. They are friendly guys.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richgj3 View Post
    The Texas sport cub can be certified to 1750 gw? Could I do that once bought?

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    I donít think so, but thatís a question for a DAR. Or even the Legend Factory. They are friendly guys.[/QUOTE]Emailed Darin at Legend

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  26. #26
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    No such ting as far as I know as a 115 horse upgrade. You can get more horsepower out of an O200 by either raising the redline to 3100rpm or installing high compression pistons. Both have drawbacks.

    Any idea what they did to "upgrade" to 115hp?
    Common mod with pistons.
    Steve Pierce

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  27. #27
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    It's not just increasing the compression ratio. In order to get above 100 hp on a 0200 you also need a less restrictive exhaust like CC does on the sport cub. A stock J3/Pa11/18-95 exhaust will only breath good enough to give you 6 or 7 more HP with 85 pistons. Most 0200 Cubs aren't propped to turn 2750rpm during take off so most are only using 90 to 95 HP at that time with the 85 pistons installed. Maybe 80 to 85 with stock pistons

    Glenn
    Last edited by cubdriver2; 08-02-2021 at 08:39 AM.
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  28. #28
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    The hopped up O-200s I am familiar with are on Sport Cubs. The definitely perform better than the stock O-200 powered ones I have flown.
    Steve Pierce

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  29. #29
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    The hopped up O-200s I am familiar with are on Sport Cubs. The definitely perform better than the stock O-200 powered ones I have flown.
    The exhaust on them is really a tuned header

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  30. #30
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Even a C-150 exhaust is better than stock Cubs - but it's still not 4:1 system

    Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    The hopped up O-200s I am familiar with are on Sport Cubs. The definitely perform better than the stock O-200 powered ones I have flown.
    Sport Cub exhaust is the loudest small bore I’ve heard. Louder than any O-320.
    Catch the fish, to make the money, to buy the bread, to gather the strength, to catch the fish...

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    The hopped up O-200s I am familiar with are on Sport Cubs. The definitely perform better than the stock O-200 powered ones I have flown.
    Sport Cub exhaust is the loudest small bore I’ve heard. Louder than any O-320.
    Catch the fish, to make the money, to buy the bread, to gather the strength, to catch the fish...

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